Overlooked, surpassed & ignored: But why?

[JD Spydo]

Occasionally there will be a model of Spyder that does not do well on the sales chart during it's tenure on the line up. But strangely after it's discontinuation from the line up it seems to all of a sudden have a surge in popularity and thus gets targeted by the collector community. And becomes an enviable USER.

A few examples I can think of off the top of my head are the G-10 Police, G-10 Harpy, Carbon Fiber Cricket, Yellow Catcherman, Titanium ATR, and the C-46 Bob Lum Tanto Folder are a few that come to mind immediately.

If I were a gambling man I would bet that most of these would be instant winners with a second chance. Some other models that just never got off the ground at all for some mysterious reason are the The big Dyad, The C-56 Zowada and the stainless handled Rescue.

Could it be that some Spyders just simply have to be used to recognize their potential? What do you all attribute this aberation to? What different market techniques could have made them a success?

[CombatGrappler]

Probably the main thing is the reaction "Man, that is really sweet! Let me see it. Holy crap, look at the price tag!" shortly followed by the customer dropping the knife like a hot potato.

There isn't much rememdy for that, because to drop prices would mean to drop quality. Sal and his crew aren't about to start down that road, I'm sure.

I think you are right about those models having to be used to be appreciated, also. Especially the Dyad, one of my favorites :cool:

[tonyfromky]

My son, who is supremely practical, can't believe I'd spend $50 on a Delica.

The gist of the discussion is:

me: "mmm Delica"
him: "Buy two 25 dollar knives so if you lose one you have a backup"
me: "What if you need the one in your hand to work Right Now"
him: "Dude, you're a computer programmer. The next time you're hiking in southwestern Bugmunch, we can have this discussion again."

I have a 'help me select a knife' thread going now, and he's rolling his eyes about me even considering a Lava, Kopa, or Caly. Don't misunderstand, he'd love to have one in his pocket.

We all know there's a diminishing return on our knife purchases from a pure analytical point of view (a $200 Kopa isn't four times as useful as a Delica... however you measure THAT...)

So when a pocketknife is crazy expensive, most people will discount it. Only aficionados will appreciate the subtle qualities of the knife. The more subtle the goodness, the fewer the buyers.

In short, normal people simply won't appreciate the finest knives.

[jujigatame]

When we talk about a knife that becomes a collector's item (whether it's because of relative rarity, a developed appreciation for a certain design, an extolling of its capabilities as a user that becomes popular and widely known due to the reach of the internet, or other varied reasons) it has a certain romanticized appeal because of the fact that it's sought after. The knife is still the same knife as it was when first made. But because we want it more now than we did when it was first around, or because we think we want it more based on what we hear from others, it could potentially be a hit if re-released. Another thing that plays into this is the progress in build techniques and materials. Take the Horn FRN model. People may have been plenty happy to see it come back in VG10, but it got a sizable boost by being done in ZDP. Now the older Horn FRNs in AUS8 aren't nearly so sought after, IMO, unless someone's seeking one to complete a collection of multiple models/variations or to have one strictly as a user. If the Horn FRN came back out a year or two after it was disco'd, still with the same steel, it may not have done much more, if any more, than it did originally. It's being gone for a longer period of time and having a great new blade steel made for a more attractive product.

I don't think it's an aberration that some knives are overlooked but maybe more a function of the fact that it's a competitive industry with a lot of choices and not every knife gets its due in its day. The company making the knife may think every model they've got this year is equally great, but they can't give them all the same marketing push, and what marketing they do have can always be subject to readjustment based on the public reaction to the knives. If model X and model Y get the same ad dollars to start but one knife sells quickly while the other stagnates, the slow mover may get less of a push because the money may have better uses than maintaining a high level of promotion that isn't converting into customers actually buying the knife.

[JD Spydo]

Very interesting input thus far.. Particularly with what Jujigatame said really makes a lot of sense. And really it does take a long explanation to cover some of the bases in a subject such as this. And I can surely appreciate that Marketing is not an exact science.

Marketing in this country is extremely fickle and totally unpredictable needless to say. But what's frustrating in this case is that I did indeed discover how great some of these blades were by actually using them and putting them to the ultimate test.

That's what separates Spyderco from almost every knife company out there. For instance the thread I just did on the Dodo> I pointed out that the Dodo never was designed to win a beauty contest but rather to be the ultimate utility knife ( which it is) > in turn it's popularity as a good USER has also propelled it into the sector of collector appeal ( mainly because of being discontinued).

I'm saying all of that to say this; Spyderco has more discontinued items that people strive to get than most any other knife company out there. So my whole point is that when they do attain the aftermarket popularity it would just make sense to me to re-introduce the knife. But bring it back in different blade steel and maybe different handle material and possibly even a different locking system. That way it wouldn't kill the collector value of the discontinued classics that are already out there. AS a matter of fact it might even enhance them and make them more coveted.

Maybe it's wishful thinking but I think it could be very profitable if done right.

[The Deacon]

Occasionally there will be a model of Spyder that does not do well on the sales chart during it's tenure on the line up. But strangely after it's discontinuation from the line up it seems to all of a sudden have a surge in popularity and thus gets targeted by the collector community. And becomes an enviable USER.

A few examples I can think of off the top of my head are the G-10 Police, G-10 Harpy, Carbon Fiber Cricket, Yellow Catcherman, Titanium ATR, and the C-46 Bob Lum Tanto Folder are a few that come to mind immediately.

If I were a gambling man I would bet that most of these would be instant winners with a second chance. Some other models that just never got off the ground at all for some mysterious reason are the The big Dyad, The C-56 Zowada and the stainless handled Rescue.

Could it be that some Spyders just simply have to be used to recognize their potential? What do you all attribute this aberation to? What different market techniques could have made them a success?

From what Sal has said, an inexpensive copy was at least partially responsible for the poor sales of the Dyad. I would assume the CF Cricket, like all the other CF models with the exception of the C22 Walker, was intended to be a limited production item - what would now be labeled a Sprint Run. Sal attributed the discontinuation of the Ti ATR to supply issues. As for the rest JD, I',m sure there is a mixture of reasons why Spyderco models sell so poorly that they get selected for retirement. As difficult as it is to believe that the entire world does not share our tastes, the truth is, they do not. If they shared mine, some of the models you mentioned would not have sold a single piece. :D

Collectors, of course have a different mindset from John Q User. The fact that a model sold poorly, and thus exists in only small quantities, increases their desire for even the worst dogs and turkeys. Think Sal is catching on to that, note the large number of Sprint Runs and other intentionally limited production variants in the past couple years. This way Spyderco at least gets to reap the benefits rather than selling out a substantial number of a poor selling model at a loss, only to see them bringing much higher prices on the secondary market a short time later.

[yablanowitz]

... But strangely after it's discontinuation from the line up it seems to all of a sudden have a surge in popularity and thus gets targeted by the collector community. And becomes an enviable USER.
...

Sorry JD, but I think you have it a bit backwards here. Being discontinued limits availability, which triggers collector interest, which piques the curiousity of the users, which creates "a surge in popularity".

Most of the knives on your list are just not mainstream knives. Sure, the Dodo may be the ultimate utility knife, but mainstream users are NOT going to give $80 for a utility knife, especially when they can get a couple of boxcutters and five hundred blades for the same money. It was an AFI knife all the way.

In the end, it is the mainstream buyers that determine what stays and what goes. There are enough of us AFI's to run up prices on things there are not going to be more of, but there are just aren't enough of us to keep a particular model in production, much less support Spyderco.

[zenheretic]

....A few examples I can think of off the top of my head are the G-10 Police, G-10 Harpy, Carbon Fiber Cricket, Yellow Catcherman, Titanium ATR, and the C-46 Bob Lum Tanto Folder are a few that come to mind immediately.

If I were a gambling man I would bet that most of these would be instant winners with a second chance. Some other models that just never got off the ground at all for some mysterious reason are the The big Dyad, The C-56 Zowada and the stainless handled Rescue.

Hold your poker chips son! :D

G-10 Police. Yes, I would expect G-10 would breath some life into it...for Police fanatics. With the four inch blade and the tightening noose of legal restrictions, I doubt the larger public would blink much. BTW, I love the Police.

CF Cricket...assuming they somehow updated to a Reeve lock I suppose. I have trouble imagining Spyderco de-evolving to throw CF on the old liner lock model. It is pretty to some of us, but it is fat in the pocket, and shiny CF seems out of favor with most folks these days.

Yellow Catcherman. Yellow or black, it didn't sell well and was discontinued, bringing it back will unlikely change that. For better or worse, my guess is the cheapy filet knives sold ubiquitously in fishing shops everywhere won that battle. If it came back, Yellow with H1 is a slam dunk for me though.

Ti ATR. Never had the pleasure, although I do have a SS ATR. I like the knife. I doubt the public would embrace a Ti version despite the techno-sexy coolness that Ti seems to bring out in so many.

Tantos? Those be Dodo food. I'd imagine the Tanto market is a shrunken raisen to its former swollen grape self. Spyderco did know how to make a fine American Tanto though.

The big Dyad was doing well enough to get illegally copied into extinction. I like to see both blades come out of the same pivot point so you don't have a Spydie hole digging into your pinkie and ring fingers...

The Zowada. It is a handsome piece, but is basically a spear point daggar, which is illegal just about everywhere.

Stay out of Vegas JD. :D

[JD Spydo]

OK OK I get the drift :rolleyes: Everybody just loves to hate ol JD :rolleyes: and his knife selections to boot :p Yeah I guess I'm just the Charlie Manson of the Spyderco Forum :eek: Good thing ol Charlie never had any Spyders :eek: that would have really been bad :o

But seriously folks just like beauty is in the eye of the beholder>> Folders are in the hands of the beholder :D :p Kind of like the lyrics of an old Rock song I remember>> "you don't know what you got till it's gone">> how true that is with certain Spyderco models.

Well it's funny though because if my whole take on this is wrong ( and I respect you all's opinions with no bitterness attached) then why is it that after they are discontinued for a year or so they then tend to run up prices on ebay like a pinball machine score :eek: i.e. Massad Ayoob, Gunting, Lum Tanto, Ti ATR ect,. Maybe just maybe I didn't present my case well enough. Well hopefully the jury hasn't convened yet and there will be more evidence come forth. I'll go to the evidence room and see what I can find :cool:

[yablanowitz]

Uhmmm...

Maybe the prices go up because there are not any more being made, so the ones that are out there are the only ones there are or will be. Every time someone like me pulls out a NIB collector's item and uses it, there is one less NIB, mint condition specimen available, so all the ones that are left are worth a little more to the people determined to preserve specimens in unused condition. Do you really think people would pay $200-$300 for a big Calypso if Spyderco was still churning out a thousand or so a year? Add the fact that there were only 1200 made in both edges to the fact that no more are being made and the fact that some of them have been used and the fact that more of them will be used, and the few mint specimens left will go up in price, because the AFIs and collectors who just HAVE to have one will pay premium prices. Why? Because that is the ONLY way to get one. Quote someone full MSRP on a knife in production and they will probably go elsewhere. Quote them full MSRP on an out of production knife that they can't FIND anywhere else, and they'll call it a bargain.

Do increasing prices on eBay really indicate increasing user popularity? I don't think so. All they indicate is a diminishing supply, which is pretty much inevitable when something is no longer being made.

[JD Spydo]

Uhmmm...

Maybe the prices go up because there are not any more being made, so the ones that are out there are the only ones there are or will be. Every time someone like me pulls out a NIB collector's item and uses it, there is one less NIB, mint condition specimen available, so all the ones that are left are worth a little more to the people determined to preserve specimens in unused condition. Do you really think people would pay $200-$300 for a big Calypso if Spyderco was still churning out a thousand or so a year?

Do increasing prices on eBay really indicate increasing user popularity? I don't think so. All they indicate is a diminishing supply, which is pretty much inevitable when something is no longer being made.

As usual YAB you always bring out great points. But I guess I could do a counterpoint in response to all of that as well. I totally agree with your "supply & demand" example. But let's look at another aspect of it>> Could it be that someone or maybe even a few people have finally used one of these great models and realized just how great a design it is and how pragmatic of a user it also is.

Come on YAB you and I both know how hard it's been to convince the Spyder-Public about the virtues of the C-44 big Dyad. But here of late I am finally seeing some interest being generated about the C-44 and the desire to bring it back. Probably because people have used it and finally experienced it first hand. But when they finally do get a taste of just how good that certain model performs; then could it be that they finally got it?

The first time I ever was shown a Spyderco Hawkbill I thought that the knife was purely a novelty knife. Man oh man, how wrong I was. Now I'm one of the Hawkbill's biggest proponents. I think it just takes time to understand what the designer had in mind. Just look at how the CAPTAIN has been maligned. But how many of those folks trash talking it have ever actually used one? Well I have and I know what it is capable of. But it will be a while before the community at large will ever accept it or seriously try to use it. But when they do they will finally admit what a great design that Jason Breeden has. Then the demand will go up and thus the prices and the desire to own one. JD

[Slatts]

I'm firmly on the fence. I agree with both the supply-and-demand reality and the previously overlooked concept. Sometimes one argument is just more right than the other.

Think about these models...Hunter, Executive, Pro-Grip, Goddards. All are discontinued (I think), some for a very long time, and I don't see collectors clamoring for minty specimens to preserve for the future. I suspect that there were quite a few made so that maybe there's no great shortage. They're also very utilitarian and maybe just not that interesting for collectors, at least for this collector that is the case.

On the other hand, take the Lum Tanto, original "R", and big Calypso. Sure, there weren't as many made due to whatever market reasons. However, their unique designs were executed superbly, and coupled with their shorter production lifes have created a greater demand. However, whether there were one or one million of these made, I'd still covet mine about the same. I just like them and it doesn't matter how many others are out there.

[fellyjr]

Think about these models...Hunter, Executive. All are discontinued (I think), some for a very long time, and I don't see collectors clamoring for minty specimens to preserve for the future. I suspect that there were quite a few made so that maybe there's no great shortage. They're also very utilitarian and maybe just not that interesting for collectors, at least for this collector that is the case.

Are you kidding me! I can't find any Mint Hunters or executives, but if I could, I'd buy all the one's I could find! I've been looking, and usually I don't have too much trouble finding what I'm looking for. :D

[yablanowitz]

I heartily agree that some of these designs simply have to be used to understand and appreciate them. That is why I refer to them as AFI knives - the mainstream knife buyers don't give them a second glance, especially after seeing the price tag. The only people interested are the people to whom a knife is something more than just a tool. No matter how perfect the design for its purpose, no matter how flawless the execution of that design, if it doesn't appeal to Joe Average, it isn't going to sell enough pieces to stay in production. Even if every active member of this forum bought two of each variant to come along, we wouldn't even clean up the sprint runs, much less keep knives in continuous production. It takes Joe Average to do that, and that Joe isn't prone to experimenting with expensive (over $50) knives.

Cheap, low quality copies have driven more than the Dyad out of production. What always amazes me is that people who use the cheap copies really think what they have is just as good as the real thing :rolleyes:

[The Deacon]

I believe that everyone is entitled to at least one "vice" item, somethiing for which they throw logic and practicality to the wind and buy what they LIKE, as long as doing so does not harm their family. Nobody "needs" a $50,00 car, a $1,000 wrist watch, a $300 pen, or a $200 knife, but, for some, one or more of those things will be in their "personal inventory" while others will be replaced by a Scion, a Casio, a Parker Jotter, or a Delica.