Eclipse,
you talk about an 1100.00 Heckler & Koch semi auto pistol. I don't care what caliber and capacity it is if you get a feed failure you're done. I carry a Colt Python. It's only 6 shots but I'm very sure all will fire everytime. Bill Jordan swears by revolvers as I do! Don't use the spray and pray philosiphy. Having only six shots will make you more proficeint!
Just got six Spydies for $13!!!!!
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kraziekurtis
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- Location: USA
The P7m8 is considered to be one of the finest guns manufactured. I have had mine for years with no failure to feed or extract in all the thousands of rounds I have put through it.. The fixed barrel is on axis with the magazine for trouble free loading.
I am a proficient and responsible shot. I would never “spray and pray”.with a gun. It would be irresponsible and unnecessary when I am more than capable of hitting the target using the sights.
The eight shots of the p7 would make me no more proficient than your Python.
As to the which one is more reliable, I would put the p7 up against the python any day.
Your response was insulting to a person who probably knows as much or more than you about arms.
Good day sir.
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 11/30/2001 7:41:24 PM
I am a proficient and responsible shot. I would never “spray and pray”.with a gun. It would be irresponsible and unnecessary when I am more than capable of hitting the target using the sights.
The eight shots of the p7 would make me no more proficient than your Python.
As to the which one is more reliable, I would put the p7 up against the python any day.
Your response was insulting to a person who probably knows as much or more than you about arms.
Good day sir.
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 11/30/2001 7:41:24 PM
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Hoosierdaddy
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Eclipse, I did not mean to insult! I was just stating my opinion as to the reliability to semi auto pistols. I feel the 9mm is a bit on the weak side. It has, I think something about 88% on the fuller index for one shot stop capabilities. The 357 magnum has 90% to maybe 92%. 40 s&w has 94%, 10mm even slightly better! I am not a "bookworm" type and have been shot by 9mm and don't think it is a strong caliber. Being shot does not make me an expert. Any time you want to go head to head I'll be here! A quick easy question? Who built the first polymer (plastic) pistol and what was the model. H&K builds fine weapons as do any German gun manufacturer. The Colt Python is one of the best if not the best 357 Magnum you can buy out of the box. The only thing that would be close is a Dan Wesson. I have to be going now but will be in touch.
It sounded as if you were being insulting to me. That can happen in a medium like these forums.
The Python is a great pistol but is known for being a bit tempremental. The older ones are a lot better than the new colts.
First polymer pistol? A glock.
AAAHHHHHHHH sorry!!
HK produced the first production polymer pistol in 1968. It was known for having a atrocious,long dao trigger pull and
a strange front sight arrangment. The model
was the ZP 70 since it was introduced in 1970. It also came in a military version that converted it to a machine pistol.
Eclipse
Edited by - eclipse on 11/30/2001 8:26:54 PM
The Python is a great pistol but is known for being a bit tempremental. The older ones are a lot better than the new colts.
First polymer pistol? A glock.
AAAHHHHHHHH sorry!!
HK produced the first production polymer pistol in 1968. It was known for having a atrocious,long dao trigger pull and
a strange front sight arrangment. The model
was the ZP 70 since it was introduced in 1970. It also came in a military version that converted it to a machine pistol.
Eclipse
Edited by - eclipse on 11/30/2001 8:26:54 PM
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Hoosierdaddy
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Eclipse, (Zach) it's actually the model VP70Z. It is a difficult question for most. You did good except got the model number incorrect. You should of spent another 300.00 and got the H&K P7M10. It's 40 cal. and 10 shot (not that I like high capacity magazines) don't want to be a hypocrite! I know you don't care and or asked for my opinion. I just like 40 S&W, (short and weak) when they build a Python quality type 40 I'll purchase one. As for the Python, the one I own is an early model. You can tell this by it not having a letter prefix before the serial #. The early Colts were better machined and used superior metals! The under barrel lug is often copied (by Taurus and other rip off gun manufacturers) but never duplicated. Copying is the sincerest form of flattery. The ventilated rib is there not for strenght but to add to the barrel weight. The 357 is a potent caliber and with no slide to absorb recoil, this helps dramatically. The VP70Z with 18 rounds is nice. I'm a German American so any thing built by Germany is going to be good. A British company by the name of Royal Ordinance actually bought H&K in 1991. The P7M10 may not have been around when you bought your M8. I have fired a H&K model 91 assault rifle (full auto) and it is the most awesome rifle I can remember. It's 308 cal.
The VP70 is referred to in its general form. The VP70Z (Z stands for Zivilversion, or civilian version) and the VP70M (M in VP70M stands for Militär, or Military in German). The gun was also made in one other caliber besides 9mm.
I had no interest in the p7m13 or m10 due to the increase dimensions of the pistols. The gun is primarily a concealed carry piece. It excels as it is very flat and has nothing to snag on clothing.
I didn't pay the full retail for the gun either. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
I really don't care about one stop shot statistics. You shoot until the threat is neutralized.
I like .357 and larger revolvers but they are a little large to carry in the south in the summer. The older Smith and Wesson are also nice.
Royal Ordnance is a subsidiary of British Aerospace Engineering.
The HK 91 is a great rifle. It is the semi auto version of the G3 battle rifle. It should be classed as a battle rifle because it is shooting a rifle round as oppsed to the intermediate round of the hk53 or m16.
Kurtis
Sorry for hijacking the thread
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 1:40:47 AM
I had no interest in the p7m13 or m10 due to the increase dimensions of the pistols. The gun is primarily a concealed carry piece. It excels as it is very flat and has nothing to snag on clothing.
I didn't pay the full retail for the gun either. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
I really don't care about one stop shot statistics. You shoot until the threat is neutralized.
I like .357 and larger revolvers but they are a little large to carry in the south in the summer. The older Smith and Wesson are also nice.
Royal Ordnance is a subsidiary of British Aerospace Engineering.
The HK 91 is a great rifle. It is the semi auto version of the G3 battle rifle. It should be classed as a battle rifle because it is shooting a rifle round as oppsed to the intermediate round of the hk53 or m16.
Kurtis
Sorry for hijacking the thread
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 1:40:47 AM
Eclipse,
I absolutely agree.
It seems we share the same passions. I too believe in only buying products of excellent quality. Especially when it comes to tools that my life may depend on someday. Let's put it into perspective. Would you trust your life to a cheap knock-off airbag for your car? Probably not.
The same goes for my everyday carries(EDCs). I will only carry something reliable enough to say that "I can trust it with my life." Hence, why I choose to carry Spyderco knives. The same also applies to my EDC firearm(s). I also choose to carry an H&K. It's the USP Compact .40 w/Trijicon nightsights, hogue grip, three spare mags, & my SureFire 9Z.
Reliable? Absolutely. Any feed failures or jams? Never. Besides, if most of those elite Spec/Ops teams around the world count on H&K, why shouldn't I? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> I would never carry anything that I couldn't trust my life with. Oh, and yes, occasionally, I do carry one of my Glocks, and keep one close at hand, at home.
Thanks for the history insight from both HoosierDaddy & Eclipse. I did not know that H&K produced a polymer as early as 1968. My answer would have been Gaston Glock, Model 17, early '80s, formally introduced in the U.S. in 1985 by Glock, Inc.
Anyway, Kahz said it best, there's NOTHING like the real thing!
"Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst. You'll never be disappointed."
I absolutely agree.
It seems we share the same passions. I too believe in only buying products of excellent quality. Especially when it comes to tools that my life may depend on someday. Let's put it into perspective. Would you trust your life to a cheap knock-off airbag for your car? Probably not.
The same goes for my everyday carries(EDCs). I will only carry something reliable enough to say that "I can trust it with my life." Hence, why I choose to carry Spyderco knives. The same also applies to my EDC firearm(s). I also choose to carry an H&K. It's the USP Compact .40 w/Trijicon nightsights, hogue grip, three spare mags, & my SureFire 9Z.
Reliable? Absolutely. Any feed failures or jams? Never. Besides, if most of those elite Spec/Ops teams around the world count on H&K, why shouldn't I? <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle> I would never carry anything that I couldn't trust my life with. Oh, and yes, occasionally, I do carry one of my Glocks, and keep one close at hand, at home.
Thanks for the history insight from both HoosierDaddy & Eclipse. I did not know that H&K produced a polymer as early as 1968. My answer would have been Gaston Glock, Model 17, early '80s, formally introduced in the U.S. in 1985 by Glock, Inc.
Anyway, Kahz said it best, there's NOTHING like the real thing!
"Hope for the best. Be prepared for the worst. You'll never be disappointed."
Lsaulog
You made a good call on the USP. Those things are built to handle the 40S&W with
a fully supported chamber. It is a great
gun.
We also share a passion for Surefire lights.
Nothing like a blinding light to distract a mugger while you run as far away as quickly as possible. It does give you a great option that other dimmer lights wouldn't in the same situation.
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 1:49:31 AM
You made a good call on the USP. Those things are built to handle the 40S&W with
a fully supported chamber. It is a great
gun.
We also share a passion for Surefire lights.
Nothing like a blinding light to distract a mugger while you run as far away as quickly as possible. It does give you a great option that other dimmer lights wouldn't in the same situation.
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 1:49:31 AM
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Hoosierdaddy
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- Location: Ca. USA
Eclipse, it's always nice to talk with a fellow gun/knife nut! We do have different opinions on guns. That's what makes America a great place! And the fact we can express our opinions in an open forum like this. I'm sure the Taliban does not have "forums"! Some points to ponder not directed at you, but thrown out to anyone who cares.
"Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
and also let me reiterate not directed to you Eclipse!
"You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person"
I stand corrected, it does sound like you know more about firearms than me. Sometimes I wish I lived in Arizona, any state where you can have a sidearm on your person legally (exposed of course) is a great place! Can't stand the heat though! (been told that it's a dry heat) whatever that's supposed to mean. It's still friken hot!!!! Not dis-sing Arizona so please no one write me!
"Never bring a knife to a gun fight"
and also let me reiterate not directed to you Eclipse!
"You can't have a battle of wits with an unarmed person"
I stand corrected, it does sound like you know more about firearms than me. Sometimes I wish I lived in Arizona, any state where you can have a sidearm on your person legally (exposed of course) is a great place! Can't stand the heat though! (been told that it's a dry heat) whatever that's supposed to mean. It's still friken hot!!!! Not dis-sing Arizona so please no one write me!
You will find that in the knife and gun communitiws that people are very friendly. They will share their knowldege and their time in ways most people won't in this day and age. They are some of the best people that you will ever meet.
I try to stay informed on the subjects tat interest me.
Our views on guns aren't necessarily different just that we carry them for different puposes. I happen to love revolvers and will add a Python to the collection at some point in the future.
Don't take a knife to a gun fight.
I have heard the don't take a knife to a gunfight thing all my life. I don't agree with it. Always take both a knife and a gun to a gunfight. At the short distances that most gunfights hapen a knife can actually work faster and inflict more damage at close range. You have to point and shoot the gun in the direction that you want hit. The knife has the ability to inflict major damage ever in the hands of the untrained. Another consideration of the knife is that you don't have to worry about stray shots in urban environments. With that said, if I know I am getting into a gunfight I am bringing a shotgun. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
A few of my favorite quotes. Can anyone guess the author?
Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level avd beat you with experience.
Pacifists are moral cowards. They wish to live in a civilized society but share none of the cost.
The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
No intelligent man has any respect for an unjust law.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
You know my name may I know yours?
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 2:47:03 PM
I try to stay informed on the subjects tat interest me.
Our views on guns aren't necessarily different just that we carry them for different puposes. I happen to love revolvers and will add a Python to the collection at some point in the future.
Don't take a knife to a gun fight.
I have heard the don't take a knife to a gunfight thing all my life. I don't agree with it. Always take both a knife and a gun to a gunfight. At the short distances that most gunfights hapen a knife can actually work faster and inflict more damage at close range. You have to point and shoot the gun in the direction that you want hit. The knife has the ability to inflict major damage ever in the hands of the untrained. Another consideration of the knife is that you don't have to worry about stray shots in urban environments. With that said, if I know I am getting into a gunfight I am bringing a shotgun. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
A few of my favorite quotes. Can anyone guess the author?
Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level avd beat you with experience.
Pacifists are moral cowards. They wish to live in a civilized society but share none of the cost.
The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.
No intelligent man has any respect for an unjust law.
There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.
You know my name may I know yours?
Eclipse
Edited by - Eclipse on 12/1/2001 2:47:03 PM
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Hoosierdaddy
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- Location: Ca. USA
Eclipse, not sure if your name is Zach or Kurtis? You signed Zach One time, Kurtis another. My name is Jeff. Not to sound redundant but the Python is a beautifal piece of work. It would make a wonderful addition to your collection. I believe it's Nov. 92 Handgunner, has a great article written by I think Massad, on the Python. After reading you'll want to track one down. Again get an early one! If you have an e-mail or some way I can get you a copy I can dig it out. I'm not keen on giving my e-mail out, don't know if you're the same. Maybe you know some way to handle this. Curious what you think of bill ruger? (I don't have any respect for the man, that's why I refuse to CAPITALIZE his name) My father is a retired Deputy Sherrif, been around guns all my life. He wanted me to follow in his footsteps, but different respect for law these days. (should I say no respect!) He's an avid gun collector, has some nice weapons. Enough to outfit a small third world country. I do have an e-mail that's probably untracable but you'd know more than me.
I'm Zach. That reference to Kurtis was an aside to him.
No need to email the article. I have a good bit of knowledge about them. I don't have any great like of Bill Ruger due to his past stance on magazine limitations. He has not been a great ally in the fight for the 2nd amendment. The guns are good and tough.
Eclipse
No need to email the article. I have a good bit of knowledge about them. I don't have any great like of Bill Ruger due to his past stance on magazine limitations. He has not been a great ally in the fight for the 2nd amendment. The guns are good and tough.
Eclipse
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Hoosierdaddy
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- Location: Ca. USA
Zach, that's the reason I can't stand the *#@+#*. He's a real Benedict Arnold. Just cause his revolvers were'nt selling compared to the pistols he has to go crying to Congress and try to get magazine limitations! I hope anyone that knows this will BOYCOTT ruger!! You said you're from the South, may I ask what state. (optional) Just curious of your CCLs.
Edited by - Hoosierdaddy on 12/3/2001 1:38:21 PM
Edited by - Hoosierdaddy on 12/3/2001 1:38:21 PM