Can we put the Mini Manix in the sebenza catagory?

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Can we put the Mini Manix in the sebenza catagory?

Postby SpydercoKnut » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:08 pm

I was wanting to know if you all are reedy to put the Mini Manix in the Sebenza catagory yet as one awesome folder. I prefer the handle on the Mini Manix as to the Sebenza and they use the same steel but the Sebenza is a legend in the folding knife industry. Thx

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J Smith
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Postby J Smith » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:15 pm

No way it will be in the Sebenzas quality range unless it has a Sebenza type pivot and the fit and finish of a Sebenza.
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Postby The Deacon » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:49 pm

Base price for a small Sebenza is $330, and a large one lists for $380, the Mini-Manix is right between them in size, so let's use $350 as a basis for comparison. Dealers who discount Spydercos by around 30% sell Sebenzas for full "MSRP", so I'd guess the pricing structure is different. Given that, a Mini Manix of Sebenza quality could carry an MSRP of around $500 and have a street price comparable to the Sebenza.

There are several questions that would need to be answered. First, could a front lock knife with a solid backstrap be made to the same level of fit and finish as a frame lock with an open backstrap for that price. Considering how much more complex a front lock is, I am not sure that it could. I think there would be a lot more work involved.

The second question is, would there be sufficient demand for it to make it worth the effort. No good way to answer that, except that the number of people willing to pay $350 for a single knife has got to be lower than the number willing to pay $115.

It would almost seem that the most logical course of action would be for Chris Reeve to license the round hole opener from Spyderco and offer a blade with it as an option on one or more of their existing models.
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Postby Mr Blonde » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:52 pm

Yes in terms of lock strength, edge geometry and overall 'robust feeling' and dare I say ...awesomeness. :D

No in most other aspects; price, materials, design, ergos,weight, fit and finish etc...

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Postby rcbalt2 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:54 pm

The sebenza cost 4 times more and has some of the tightest tolerances in production knives. The manix is a tank that is meant to take a beating and ask for more. They are two very different knives. Both good just different.


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Postby J Smith » Sun Jan 21, 2007 2:58 pm

I for one would love the see Spyderco work a deal to make a lower cost Sebenza.CRK tried it with CRKT and it was not anywhere in the ballpark.
IMO Spyderco could do it.
By changing the shape of the scale slightly on the old ti Lum Tanto putting a Sebenza shaped blade in it and giving it a frame lock while using the same Spyderco style pivot.Street price of 150.00-175.00
Like has been said the two are so differant they can't really be compared.
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Postby Mr Blonde » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:01 pm

J Smith wrote:I for one would love the see Spyderco work a deal to make a lower cost Sebenza.CRK tried it with CRKT and it was not anywhere in the ballpark.
Yes, I've seen pics of that in a magazine many years ago. Zytel handles?! What were they thinking? Integral lock made from Zytel?!

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Postby J Smith » Sun Jan 21, 2007 3:05 pm

Mr Blonde wrote:Yes, I've seen pics of that in a magazine many years ago. Zytel handles?! What were they thinking? Integral lock made from Zytel?!

Wouter
I know! :rolleyes:
I have heard that the heads of CRKT have a couple on display in their office the remind them of what can't be done.
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Postby Zac » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:06 pm

The Mini Manix sports probably the best heavy usage utility folder for the money...but it will never be a Sebenza. Only a Sebenza will ever be a Sebenza as it is in a class of its own.

The lock strength on the two are comparable (likely even favors the Manix)...but with heavy usage, blade play develops on any folder except the Sebenza. Benchmade has stolen and used Reeve's lock, but they have not been able to do it successfully as of yet as their 'frame locks' are temperamental to say the least.

The Sebenza can be disassembled by anyone and reassembled and keep the exact same tolerances every time. The tang locks up in the same position, the clip is amazingly strong, the entire knife is amazingly light, blade play does not exist, fit and finish are simply excellent. The blade geometry of the Sebenza makes it an amazing slicer with the extreme hollow grind...it does not do well at cutting metal and heavy material however. The serrations on the Sebenza aren't bad, but they are nowhere near as effective as the SpyderEdge. The Manix is a heavy cutter as for sh&ts and giggles I have sliced up soup cans because it can without damaging the edge much at all. The knife is also good for hacking. The G10 on the Manix is grippier and some find the Manix more ergonomic...I honestly think they both are.

Both sport CPM-S30V steel which I will swear to the bone this is the best cutlery steel conceived to date. The Sebenza is the ideal EDC companion...the Manix is the ideal heavy user if you have to chop, deep cut, hack, baton, etc. Subsequently, I often carry both! (and yes, I carry the dreaded CE) :D
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Postby EarthDog » Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:07 pm

It's a good question in that it leads us to thoughtful consideration of knife performance and value, as exemplified by Deacon's reply.

My short answer is no, not even close, and I see the Manix (mini or full) or the Para as being of great value when compared to the Sebenza. I come up with the same answer when I ask the same of the Ti ATR, which I see as a much closer comparison. In each case, we have a robust folder that is well suited to a variety of tasks. In terms of quality, I'd say the Manix(es), Para, and Ti ATR will provide about 80% to 85% of the long term performance of the Sebenza.

I would say that some Strider folders are in the same category, and the smooth action of the Strider exceeds the Sebenza. Same for the Trident folders; though they seem to be exceedingly rare, so far.

That's how I see it. So far, I've not seen my way clear to buying a Sebbie. I keep considering it. It's a great knife, and I have not felt compelled to take that plunge. I have found the CR fixed blades more compelling. I have a Sable IV, and I have preordered an Inyoni.
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Postby The General » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:00 pm

I remember Sal telling me once that if Spyderco made a knife with the same materials, fit and finish of the Sebenza... it would cost a similar amount to make and buy.

The Sebenza is the Sebenza... A knife does not have to be perfect to work perfectly well.

Spyderco knives are innovative and workers. Bloody good workers. I own many knives and am very proud to carry Spyderco knives as well. I don't think Spyderco ought to do a Sebbie... the Ti ATR was a little like that and it did not survive.

I would like to see a Sebbie with the round Spyderhole though! :)

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Postby flipe8 » Mon Jan 22, 2007 12:55 pm

While I don't own a Mini Manix, I do own and EDC a small Sebenza. Since I got it a year or so ago, I've only made one or two knife purchases. It just seems to do most anything I expect of an EDC knife to do. From the reviews, I'd be willing to say the Mini Manix is probably a better performing knife and is certainly aimed at harder use(doesn't automatically mean stronger, though). I think they'd compliment each other quite well.That being said, I know the quality of my Sebenza is at the top of my list of knives owned or handled, without a doubt. I have a Kevin Wilkins custom that is pretty much on par, but costs about twice as much again. The Mini Manix would be an awesome knife to own, but based on my Spydercos, I imagine it isn't quite as refined. If you want a Sebenza, or any particular knife, you're better off getting it than settling for something else, even if the alternative is awesome in its' own right.

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Postby OuchThatsSharp » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:28 pm

I would like to see a Spyderco model that would directly compete with a Sebenza. With all the knives I currently have, I could have purchased 4 or 5 Sebenzas. But I like having the variety that I do have. Also, the knives that I currently have, I wouldn't hesitate to use. Not so with a $400 Sebenza. Don't get me wrong, I will probably eventually get a Sebenza but it will probably be a Shelf Queen. I have no problems using my Spydercos and others that I have. Some haven't been used yet but eventually they will. I personally would like to see the Native III PE blade design in a Ti framelock with the bronze phosphorous bushings for super smooth opening. If Spyderco could keep the price less than a Sebenza I would think they would have a definite winner on their hands.
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Postby cdf » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:04 pm

Not really a fair comparison , the mini Manix is a production blade , the Sebbie is a mid tech limited production .

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Postby florijn » Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:07 pm

J Smith wrote:No way it will be in the Sebenzas quality range unless it has a Sebenza type pivot and the fit and finish of a Sebenza.
I will second that.
They both are great knives and have their pro's and con's
but this is comparing a apple with an egg, sorry.
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Postby scolby » Mon Jan 22, 2007 5:41 pm

In addition to the object to object comparison, one truly has to understand the kind of customer service offered by Chris Reeve knives.

No one on the planet that I am aware of can handle the volume of refurbishment with the individual customer service that CRK does, on a very personal level as quickly, proficiently and inexpensively as CRK. I have dealt with many custom makers, most of the small shops and most of the big factories. CRK is IMHO, the undisputed premier knife service shop.

Now, if I could only get them to produce a wharncliffe blade.....
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Postby The Mastiff » Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:17 am

Both sport CPM-S30V steel which I will swear to the bone this is the best cutlery steel conceived to date.
Zac, have you tried S90V yet? S30V is more in the class with BG42, 20-CV, CPM 154cm, and a few more. S90V is the next class up.

S90V is in the class with ZDP189, Cowry X & Y, and some kind of obscure ones which I haven't yet tried. These are only the stainless steels which are outdone by carbon steels easily.

So far, give me S90V, or ZDP189 any day. Full hard M2 also ( I don't chop with knives) Super Gold laminate takes better edges than S30V also. I even would take super blue ( carbon) over S30V

These are only ones I have knives in, except Cowry steels----so far.
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Postby Zac » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:08 pm

The Mastiff wrote:Zac, have you tried S90V yet? S30V is more in the class with BG42, 20-CV, CPM 154cm, and a few more. S90V is the next class up.

S90V is in the class with ZDP189, Cowry X & Y, and some kind of obscure ones which I haven't yet tried. These are only the stainless steels which are outdone by carbon steels easily.

So far, give me S90V, or ZDP189 any day. Full hard M2 also ( I don't chop with knives) Super Gold laminate takes better edges than S30V also. I even would take super blue ( carbon) over S30V

These are only ones I have knives in, except Cowry steels----so far.
I have used S90V on some Microtechs...I really prefer S30V to that, M2, D2, and ZDP-189 given the combination of properties. I would take 3V over S30V any day however.
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Postby John G. » Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:12 pm

Zac wrote:I have used S90V on some Microtechs...I really prefer S30V to that, M2, D2, and ZDP-189 given the combination of properties. I would take 3V over S30V any day however.
Interesting. Why do you prefer S30V to M2, D2, and ZDP-189 ?

Thanks.

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Postby Zac » Tue Jan 23, 2007 11:31 pm

John G. wrote:Interesting. Why do you prefer S30V to M2, D2, and ZDP-189 ?

Thanks.
While it loses hands down in edge retention to all except D2 (mine you depending on the hardening D2 can be better or worse), S30V has a higher impact resistance than M2 and ZDP (I believe D2 but I am not going to say that as I am not positive) and far better corrosion resistance than all. Additionally, it is easier to sharpen than other hyper-steels which can be the make or break for field usage. Just my personal preference...
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