I've been a student of aikido for 11+ yrs. We always practice response to blade attacks but never how to to use the blade to defend. My sensei is negative about training with blades in the offensive mode. Any suggestions on how to approach him on this subject?
Roger Nicholls
defense against the blade
-
Hannibal
Your sensei is right. If you can defend yourself proporly against knifes then there's no need to use them in offensive way. Why would you? Wanting to learn how to use knifes in an offensive way is asking your sensei to teach you how to kill with a knife. I can't say I wouldn't take that lesson if he offered it, but I'm afraid you won't get to him.
Sorry, can't help ya.
Hannibal Lecter, M.D.
Sorry, can't help ya.
Hannibal Lecter, M.D.
A tricky question Roger.
A lot of martial arts / styles will concentrate on the "art" of the style rather than pure self defense. These types of school will frown upon anything that is not in their sylabus. Example, when visiting a Teakwondo school I was cationed for foot sweeping another student when he stood on one leg in a "defensive" stance, apparently foot sweeping wasn't in the sylabus.
That said, my attitude was always to give each school the greatest respect and only use their techniques in their school. After all, I was there to learn their techniques, not to impose my own.
I think a more important fact to consider is that if your Sensei has not been taught how to fight properly with a knife, then you should possibly be looking for a teacher who has. I am not saying that you should leave your current Sensei, but rather that you might need to seek out additional instruction.
From what I hear the MBC (Matial Blade Craft) courses that Spyderco organise are top class. Even though most are in the USA, I know that Bram Frank has taught classes in Europe.
"Walk softly, but carry a big stick."
A lot of martial arts / styles will concentrate on the "art" of the style rather than pure self defense. These types of school will frown upon anything that is not in their sylabus. Example, when visiting a Teakwondo school I was cationed for foot sweeping another student when he stood on one leg in a "defensive" stance, apparently foot sweeping wasn't in the sylabus.
That said, my attitude was always to give each school the greatest respect and only use their techniques in their school. After all, I was there to learn their techniques, not to impose my own.
I think a more important fact to consider is that if your Sensei has not been taught how to fight properly with a knife, then you should possibly be looking for a teacher who has. I am not saying that you should leave your current Sensei, but rather that you might need to seek out additional instruction.
From what I hear the MBC (Matial Blade Craft) courses that Spyderco organise are top class. Even though most are in the USA, I know that Bram Frank has taught classes in Europe.
"Walk softly, but carry a big stick."
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 2999
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Nicholls:
Although I do not know your sensei and am not familiar with his approach to teaching, it is not uncommon in the traditional Japanese arts to have highly structured attacks. This is very much the case in most forms of aikido, where lunge punches, extended hand-blade attacks, and wrist grabs are used to make the execution of techniques easier. The cooperative nature of the "uke" (receiver of the technique) often leads to the "uke effect" -- a style of practice that is characterized by attacking in artificial ways that do not realistically simulate actual street attacks to facilitate the performance of a technqiue.
The bottom line is that most of the traditional aikido knife defenses will not work against the actual types of knife attacks that occur on the street. This is not to say the principles of aikido cannot be applied against these attacks, it's just that very few practitioners and instructors bother to do so.
Aikido actually has very close historical ties to Japanese kenjitsu (sword fighting)and tantojitsu (knife fighting) and uses much of the same footwork and body motion. By emphasizing this connection, you might be able to get your sensei to be a bit more open minded. However, I wouldn't count on this. Many sensei teach exactly the way they were taught. If they don't know something, they actively avoid the topic.
The idea that "knowing how to defend against a knife makes it unnecessary to learn the offensive use" is, in my opinion, ludicrous. Simple logic dictates that you can't have a good solution unless you truly understand the problem. Learning how to fight with a knife will enable you to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon. You can then realistically evaluate your counter-knife tactics and make sure they'll work against a realistic attack.
My suggestion is to continue your study of aikido, but also seek out other instruction. The Filipino arts have their own version of joint-locking tactics. Since they are a blade-oriented culture, many of their joint-manipulation techniques work very well against blades. Again, understanding the problem is the first step to formulating a good solution.
Good luck in your training.
Stay safe,
mike j
Although I do not know your sensei and am not familiar with his approach to teaching, it is not uncommon in the traditional Japanese arts to have highly structured attacks. This is very much the case in most forms of aikido, where lunge punches, extended hand-blade attacks, and wrist grabs are used to make the execution of techniques easier. The cooperative nature of the "uke" (receiver of the technique) often leads to the "uke effect" -- a style of practice that is characterized by attacking in artificial ways that do not realistically simulate actual street attacks to facilitate the performance of a technqiue.
The bottom line is that most of the traditional aikido knife defenses will not work against the actual types of knife attacks that occur on the street. This is not to say the principles of aikido cannot be applied against these attacks, it's just that very few practitioners and instructors bother to do so.
Aikido actually has very close historical ties to Japanese kenjitsu (sword fighting)and tantojitsu (knife fighting) and uses much of the same footwork and body motion. By emphasizing this connection, you might be able to get your sensei to be a bit more open minded. However, I wouldn't count on this. Many sensei teach exactly the way they were taught. If they don't know something, they actively avoid the topic.
The idea that "knowing how to defend against a knife makes it unnecessary to learn the offensive use" is, in my opinion, ludicrous. Simple logic dictates that you can't have a good solution unless you truly understand the problem. Learning how to fight with a knife will enable you to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the weapon. You can then realistically evaluate your counter-knife tactics and make sure they'll work against a realistic attack.
My suggestion is to continue your study of aikido, but also seek out other instruction. The Filipino arts have their own version of joint-locking tactics. Since they are a blade-oriented culture, many of their joint-manipulation techniques work very well against blades. Again, understanding the problem is the first step to formulating a good solution.
Good luck in your training.
Stay safe,
mike j
Thank you so much for your thoughtful feedback. This issue of studing an "ART vs. "Self Defense" regarding blades in particular is intriguing to me because of the incredible focus we now find ourselfs in with regards the WAR we're in and our skills as civilians. { I'm ex hospital navy corpsman 1967-1972}. I'm still pissed off. The blade seems the way I'd like settle it with all those "box cutter" cowards.
Having studied Aikido for some time I must augment Mr. Janich's comments. Much of Aikido comes from weapon arts: kenjutsu, tanto jutsu and yari jutsu to name a few. The founder of Aikido studied and practiced these arts until the day he died. He understood the need to know these skills - both as offensive skills and as a means to understanding how to properly defend against them. In my mind it is a sin to not include at least the basic study of these skills in Aikido training. How do you know you are attacking properly, even as an uke, if you have not studied the technique for attack? Makes no sense when you think about it.
Michael is also correct when he recommends studying another art - like Filipino martial arts (which I also support) or perhaps Indonesian arts, but to keep studying Aikido. You have many years of practice in Aikido and have learned much. There are many things that you have learned fomr Aikido that will help you in your defense against knives and any skills you will leanr in the future. I have to agree that many traditional Aikido techniques are not very effective against today's attackers. But, the principles of dynamic movement, of controlling your opponent and how you manage the space around both you and your opponent are importasnt and useful skills to have. Learning footwork and body movement are two of the most important skills in any martial or combat art and Aikido provides a strong foundation.
Good luck in your endeavours Nicholls.
Sirius
P.S. Now I understand the post in the MBC Forum...
Michael is also correct when he recommends studying another art - like Filipino martial arts (which I also support) or perhaps Indonesian arts, but to keep studying Aikido. You have many years of practice in Aikido and have learned much. There are many things that you have learned fomr Aikido that will help you in your defense against knives and any skills you will leanr in the future. I have to agree that many traditional Aikido techniques are not very effective against today's attackers. But, the principles of dynamic movement, of controlling your opponent and how you manage the space around both you and your opponent are importasnt and useful skills to have. Learning footwork and body movement are two of the most important skills in any martial or combat art and Aikido provides a strong foundation.
Good luck in your endeavours Nicholls.
Sirius
P.S. Now I understand the post in the MBC Forum...
-
Steve Drayton
- Member
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Central Coast NSW Australia
Hi Yog Bram is doing a seminar in the UK Saturday 1/12/01. If you or any one else is interested contact me on blue.roo@ntlworld.com for more information
Sirius,
Thanks for your feed back. The "window" is a concept first taught to me from sensei Roy Suenaka when he shared concepts from his training in Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu karate during an Aikido workshop years ago. I ran into the concept again years later while studing the knife with W.Hock Hochheim here in VA.
Here's the strategy: In any stance, keep the blade hand in motion in a window of combat( like a picture frame). The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc.
After using this concept during Tanto Waza I've gained appreciation for learning offensive skills with the blade to enhance our aikido skills.
in aiki,
Roger
Thanks for your feed back. The "window" is a concept first taught to me from sensei Roy Suenaka when he shared concepts from his training in Hakutsuru Shorin-ryu karate during an Aikido workshop years ago. I ran into the concept again years later while studing the knife with W.Hock Hochheim here in VA.
Here's the strategy: In any stance, keep the blade hand in motion in a window of combat( like a picture frame). The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc.
After using this concept during Tanto Waza I've gained appreciation for learning offensive skills with the blade to enhance our aikido skills.
in aiki,
Roger
Hannibal said: "If you can defend yourself proporly against knifes then there's no need to use them in offensive way. Why would you?"
Until I learned (Modern Arnis) how to use knife to cut and to kill), I believed my classical training taught me how to defend myself properly from a knife. It did not. Not even close. That is why i learned and teach it, not to be a "knife fighter" or blade assasin.
If you don't know how a knife is used, how can you possibly believe you have the defense? It would be as if I gave you a shilik and told you that it was a very dangerous weapon and you designed a defense for it without ever seeing it in use...we'd get fantasy defenses for fantasy attacks, yes, no?
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
Until I learned (Modern Arnis) how to use knife to cut and to kill), I believed my classical training taught me how to defend myself properly from a knife. It did not. Not even close. That is why i learned and teach it, not to be a "knife fighter" or blade assasin.
If you don't know how a knife is used, how can you possibly believe you have the defense? It would be as if I gave you a shilik and told you that it was a very dangerous weapon and you designed a defense for it without ever seeing it in use...we'd get fantasy defenses for fantasy attacks, yes, no?
<a href=" http://raisingcanes.net">The Fighting Old Man</a>
Nicholls,
The theory you discuss:
"The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc."
Sounds a whole lot like the "gates" theroy that was taught to me when I was studying Wing Chun. My sifu explained a very similar boundary that was divided into first four and then eight sub areas. These areas were used to explain defense and the techniques used to defendf the various "zones". It was also an illustration of the fact that if you protect only this boundary area you have protected yourself - If your opponent misses by an inch, he may as well miss by a mile...
Sirius
The theory you discuss:
"The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc."
Sounds a whole lot like the "gates" theroy that was taught to me when I was studying Wing Chun. My sifu explained a very similar boundary that was divided into first four and then eight sub areas. These areas were used to explain defense and the techniques used to defendf the various "zones". It was also an illustration of the fact that if you protect only this boundary area you have protected yourself - If your opponent misses by an inch, he may as well miss by a mile...
Sirius
Nicholls,
The theory you discuss:
"The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc."
Sounds a whole lot like the "gates" theroy that was taught to me when I was studying Wing Chun. My sifu explained a very similar boundary that was divided into first four and then eight sub areas. These areas were used to explain defense and the techniques used to defendf the various "zones". It was also an illustration of the fact that if you protect only this boundary area you have protected yourself - If your opponent misses by an inch, he may as well miss by a mile...
Sirius
The theory you discuss:
"The borders are the width of your shoulders and hips to the borders of your mid thigh and face. Over slashing or rearing the blade well beyound the boundries opens you to blocks, blends, and grabs,etc."
Sounds a whole lot like the "gates" theroy that was taught to me when I was studying Wing Chun. My sifu explained a very similar boundary that was divided into first four and then eight sub areas. These areas were used to explain defense and the techniques used to defendf the various "zones". It was also an illustration of the fact that if you protect only this boundary area you have protected yourself - If your opponent misses by an inch, he may as well miss by a mile...
Sirius
-
Pacifist
Hello to All -
I've been a lurker on this page for several months and would like to comments on this one especially as martial "style" and bladecraftin general ae near and dear to me.
One solution I've not seen mentioned would be to abandon the direct study of Aikido and focus on more of a free form approach to the arts in general. After ten plus years in a discipline is a good chance that you may finds new and valuable fruits waiting in other disciplines.
I studied Tai Chi and Hsing-I for about ten years before studying other styles and found it very liberating.
Just a thought.
By the way - I respect all arts and artisits, but suspect the limits of all as well.
In respect,
Paul
Pacifist
I've been a lurker on this page for several months and would like to comments on this one especially as martial "style" and bladecraftin general ae near and dear to me.
One solution I've not seen mentioned would be to abandon the direct study of Aikido and focus on more of a free form approach to the arts in general. After ten plus years in a discipline is a good chance that you may finds new and valuable fruits waiting in other disciplines.
I studied Tai Chi and Hsing-I for about ten years before studying other styles and found it very liberating.
Just a thought.
By the way - I respect all arts and artisits, but suspect the limits of all as well.
In respect,
Paul
Pacifist
-
Pacifist
Hello to All -
I've been a lurker on this page for several months and would like to comments on this one especially as martial "style" and bladecraftin general ae near and dear to me.
One solution I've not seen mentioned would be to abandon the direct study of Aikido and focus on more of a free form approach to the arts in general. After ten plus years in a discipline is a good chance that you may finds new and valuable fruits waiting in other disciplines.
I studied Tai Chi and Hsing-I for about ten years before studying other styles and found it very liberating.
Just a thought.
By the way - I respect all arts and artisits, but suspect the limits of all as well.
In respect,
Paul
Pacifist
I've been a lurker on this page for several months and would like to comments on this one especially as martial "style" and bladecraftin general ae near and dear to me.
One solution I've not seen mentioned would be to abandon the direct study of Aikido and focus on more of a free form approach to the arts in general. After ten plus years in a discipline is a good chance that you may finds new and valuable fruits waiting in other disciplines.
I studied Tai Chi and Hsing-I for about ten years before studying other styles and found it very liberating.
Just a thought.
By the way - I respect all arts and artisits, but suspect the limits of all as well.
In respect,
Paul
Pacifist