Interesting thoughts on a self-defense spyderco

[Piet.S]

By the way: Asterix is a little Gallic warrior from a comic book.
"Rare jongens die Amerikanen" means "Funny (or stange) boys these Americans". LOL.

That's all folks!

Cor

Thats right, "die" is Dutch for "that" and has nothing to do with laying down your mortal life.
Not every shadow hides a thread.

[Saint-Just]

This is a very interesting thread, because it illustrates perfectly the difference of social climate between the US and (old) Europe, and from that a lot of misunderstanding between the two (beyond the political show).
Let me first say that I EDC a caly Jr and a SAK, even though I technically shouldn't carry the former.
The concept of SD in Europe is more theorical. While we can train (be prepared) we are unlikely (or we think we are) to use it unless we live in a specific environment. Not that Europe is populated by angels... just a different frame of mind.
By contrast I felt that my SD skills were a lot more necessary when I lived in NYC. And no, I do not think NYC is representative of the whole US, but I also travelled around when I was there.
However, where does one draw the line for what is acceptable? an AK 47 is arguably a very good SD tool, of the dissuasive kind. Seconded by a Crocodile dundee type of Bowie, both well visible you should be able to be fairly safe. Except that if someone wants to attack you, he'll probably shoot you first (in the head, in case you wear kevlar).
So, to be able to effectively defend oneself, should we all carry concealed short barrelled large calibers?
Thsi is not meant to be an attack against any posters, (and if it sounds like one please blame it on English not being mother tongue) but a real question.
My personal answer would be along the thinking that led to the beginning of this thread by Epsiteme. And my EDC in NYC today would probably be a Perrin's La Griffe: short hawkbill fixed blade (on top of my caly).

In my interpretation, it sounds like you get uneasy and squeamish when others discuss self defense. You make the incorrect assumption that the others are dispassionate, possibly heartless, and even more likely bloodthirstly based solely on the subject matter.

Whenever I see "die Amerikanen" and can't help to think "die American".

Zenheretic, are you sure that of the 2, Cor is the one that should seek help? it seems to me that you always come out with a level of aggression that I would rate as fairly close to my understanding of paranoia... :D :D

[zenheretic]

Zenheretic, are you sure that of the 2, Cor is the one that should seek help? it seems to me that you always come out with a level of aggression that I would rate as fairly close to my understanding of paranoia... :D :D

Oh please dig up some more out of context quotes to show me of my aggression. In order to cure myself, I must understand my illness.

By the way, admitting ignorance of a foreign language and seeing similarities to English is hardly considered paranoia in this neck of the woods...but then Americans are so strange. Perhaps in Europe, ignorance is the first sign of paranoia? :rolleyes:

[224477]

Zen,

"Rare jongens, die Amerikanen". this means exactly:

"Strange guys, the Americans"

"Die" means something like "the" in German language, definitely not "die" as to die..

[224477]

Zenheretic, are you sure that of the 2, Cor is the one that should seek help? it seems to me that you always come out with a level of aggression that I would rate as fairly close to my understanding of paranoia...

This is just language barrier, and its fully OK.

I dont have any smallest suspicion regarding Zen´s paranoia
Maybe just you didnt read his post properly, he was just asking, not paranoid.

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: I know what this is. You all are conspiring to get me. Everyone acts nice here but you're just trying to get me to relax so I'll lower my guard down so you can get me. I think the government is involved. And then there's the Dutch connection... :spyder:

[Richard IV]

There is something you (Americans) should understand about us (Europeans) when we talk about self defense: We are not used to the level of street violence we currently have and you've dealt with for decades...

I've lived a few months in Pa, back in the early eighties, when I was still a young student. By the time, I was truly amazed by the titles in the morning newspaper: Kids murdering others, assaults, shooting... That was unknown to me (not that it never happened in France, but not that often!). And my friends couldn't understand why I was so shocked. This level of violence was "normal" to them. And not to me.

Now, things changed badly in Europe. But we are not (yet) used to it. Many europeans still don't understand most street gangs are armed with real guns, and are ready to use them. Many politicians here think weapons make violence, not people. Thus the laws forbidding us to carry anything more dangerous that a SAK (a non locking one!). And many people do really think the only logical thing to do when under attack is to get beaten to death, then crawl to your cell phone and call the police (and of course an ambulance).

That's not, by far, my point of view. That's why I'm posting here and that's the reason I carry a Persian night and day (By the way, is this the REAL Ed Schempp who posted earlier? Oh my God! I LOVE your Persian :D ), even if I know I should not do it, because I could have problems with LEO :D .

So don't be surprised if some of your posts appear very close to paranoia from most Europeans point of view.

I think that had to be said. Those past years have widened the gap between Europe and America, and I really don't like it. Let's not make things worse here on this forum :)

[ghostrider]

Something that I think should be noted is that it seems the European view of violence in America is portrayed in the news. Sadly that isn't the best source for a picture of America. In the news in America, the saying goes, "if it bleeds it leads" meaning that the reporters are more likely to report violence than any other thing. As an example, if you were to go by news reports, you might think that we have a crime wave, when in reality the crime rate has been declining for some years now.

[Saint-Just]

Since most took on the polemic side of my post instead of the idea within the original subject, allow me to illustrate (even though I am convinced most of you will know FP production better than I)
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/...9/fred0059.jpg
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/...9/fred0058.jpg

[Puyallupknifegu]

Saint...the link did not work...

[Saint-Just]

Thanks, Puyallupknifeguy, and my apologies to all :o .
Let's try again
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/dat ... ed0059.jpg
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/dat ... ed0058.jpg

[markg]

To add to the discussion...

The United States is a large country, with many of its residents living in rural or remote areas. This has changed over the last decades, but it still has shaped our thinking... Case in point...

A few years ago, I lived in a rural mid-west town of 500 people... And one stop light. We had no local police dept, and and were dependant on the county sheriff for policing (along with the State Hwy Patrol).

One evening, I heard screams from around the corner, I had heard this kind of scream before and knew there was trouble. I got in my car, and drove down a little alley between houses, there was a man, who had a strangle hold on a woman's neck, and had her down on the back seat of a car. When he saw me, he got off of her, and her screams stopped.

I debated what to do... Common wisdom says to call the police in these situations, getting involved in domestic disbutes like this can be a problem. So I got on my cell phone and called 911.

I got the dispatcher, who transfered me to the sheriff's office... The call to 911 took 8 minutes... Why?

I HAD TO GIVE THEM DIRECTIONS!!!

By this time, other's were driving by and the couple's disbute calmed down.

However, it was another 30 minutes before law enforcement got to the house.

Almost 40 minutes after I called someone showed up.

Long story short, in that kind of setting, you have to be prepared to take care of yourself... You have no resonable expectation of help from law enforcement in times of need in some areas. They will be there to take pictures of your dead body, that you can expect.

It is not a knock on LEO's... It is just in rural areas, the resources are just not there.

For us American's, taking care of yourself is part of who we are. Until this past century, many lived in the "wilds" and you had to take care of yourself.

I live in a larger city now, and there are shootings and murders. However if you don't sell/buy/use drugs, and stay away from where the drug trade operates... The chances of you being a victim are not that high.

Back to the topic at hand...

I would not chose a Spin for a SD knife, unless it was all I had. If you want to keep the blade length down, then consider the Yojimbo, it might be just what you are looking for.

[Saint-Just]

To add to the discussion...
For us American's, taking care of yourself is part of who we are. Until this past century, many lived in the "wilds" and you had to take care of yourself.

I think this is absolutely key to understanding the differences (in the subject at hand) between the 2 sides of the pond.

To add to the discussion...
I would not chose a Spin for a SD knife, unless it was all I had. If you want to keep the blade length down, then consider the Yojimbo, it might be just what you are looking for

There again , I think we all agree... But think of a blade like the spin, with a better (BIGGER) handle [Mr Blonde mentioned the Dodo]. Don't you think that THEN Episteme's is a very valid point?

After that, take what Joe Talmadge quite rightly pointed out: big guy coming fast at you, fear factor... you do not want to have to open the knife, full stop (IMHO). Hence my conclusion with la Griffe (or one of Perrin's spydercos... But la Griffe would be legal just about everywhere on your side (not here )

Last but not least: You will never have time to reach and pull your neck knife in Joe Talmadge's scenario: your belt is your best option

[markg]

I do agree, I have always been a fan of the "finger ring" small bladed knives. They are difficult to disarm, hard to lose a grip on, and use natural bady motions when deployed.

However, you have to becareful, in some places, the "ring" can be classified as a "brass knuckle" and get you in trouble.

As has been pointed out, it will be difficult to deploy any weapon during a truily well planned preditory attack

[Episteme]

I can see that my original post about using a small blade for self defense has been very fruitful in provoking discussion. A few thoughts;
1. My mentioning of the Spin was not to advocate this very particular model as a primary self defense spyderco--it was merely an example of a blade-size that is quite small, yet if and when it is accompanied by a respectable handle and opening method, the 2 inch blade seems extraordinarily capable of inflicting the type of damage to a violent assailent that would render most individuals unwilling to continue an attack (once again, i'm speculating). Like I mentioned in my original post, stanley knives, razors, and scalpals are capable of doing horrific damage to a person's body with relatively little effort required (any LEO, ER physician, or EMT with the relevant experience can attest to this).
2. As a result of what was said in (1), we can see that a blade like the Spin (or Kiwi, or Dodo, or Cricket), when equipped with a good grip and opening system, seems more than adequate for self defense in that it can inflict fearsome damage to a criminal bent on harming you.
3. Now, what would the advantage be of carrying a small blade as a primary defensive tool? All 1 and 2 have shown is that a small blade is adequate, but not superior to a larger blade like a Police model or Civilian. Well, we have to face facts and realize that our political and legal climate today is a lot different than it was even 15 years ago. The masses, like it or not, view knives carried on one's person as a weapon or potential weapon with negative connotations. Now, we can be stubborn and have the attitude of "I'm going to carry what I want without regard to what others / LEO / the law has to say about it". I can tell you this; such an attitude, when accompanied by similar actions, will only land one in a whole lot of trouble. Instead, the only way that I can think of for us to prevent our "rights" from being taken away from us is through educating the masses and intelligent discussion; not by individually going against the grain and breaking the law / social norms, which will only spell more trouble in the long run. As such, until the social climate improves in regards to the carry of larger knives, it is very important to realize that carrying a smaller blade as a primary carry should be the rule, and not the exception. And it is in light of this unfortunate realization that the smaller blade (sub-3 inch), when accompanied by appropriate training, handle, and opening method, has a great advantage over larger tactical folders with blades in the 4-5 inch range. As rediculous as it may be, the difference between an Endura and a Dodo can be either spending the night in county lock up (justly or unjustly) or having a police officer complimenting you on your "cool little pocket knife". As a graduate student working on a career as a university professor, I'd prefer the latter well over the former.
-Mike

[Michael Cook]

:spyder: The swick is in stock and available at NGK. Has both the stability and ease of draw afforded by the Perrin hole and the cutting qualities of the warnclyff blade. :spyder:

[spydermike]

At times my job requires that I go into a "heavy neighborhood". To me the ultimate knife for my piece of mind is the D'Allara Rescue, fully serated sheepfoot blade (pocket clip removed for best grip). This knife offers heft, balance and the smoothest action with the ball bearing lock, with a blade that could de-bone limbs...

[Dr. Snubnose]

At times my job requires that I go into a "heavy neighborhood". To me the ultimate knife for my piece of mind is the D'Allara Rescue, fully serated sheepfoot blade (pocket clip removed for best grip). This knife offers heft, balance and the smoothest action with the ball bearing lock, with a blade that could de-bone limbs...

I'll second what Spydermike has said...I like the D'Allara for his reasons and I wouldn't feel unarmed with one on my person...only things is.... it's not one of those tiny itsy bitsy blades....Doc :D

[zenheretic]

...snip.... (By the way, is this the REAL Ed Schempp who posted earlier? Oh my God! I LOVE your Persian :D ), ...snip... :)

Hey Richard IV, yes that was the genuine Ed Schempp. He likes to talk about knives.

[Dr. Snubnose]

[quote="zenheretic"]Hey Richard IV, yes that was the genuine Ed Schempp. He likes to talk about knives. ]

Zen: Are you Sure! I'm gonna need a DNA sample....Doc :D