Interesting thoughts on a self-defense spyderco

[224477]

Zen: Are you Sure! I'm gonna need a DNA sample....Doc :D

Hey you!

Let the real Doc.Snubnose pushing the keys! :p :D

[zenheretic]

Zen: Are you Sure! I'm gonna need a DNA sample....Doc :D

Not 100% sure, but if he doesn't give up the DNA willingly, make sure he finishes his camp knife before you take the sample. :D

Oh wait, that might appear as a bloodthirsty statement to some of our more sensitive forumites. :rolleyes:

disclaimer: No actual forumites were harmed in the filming of this episode.

[zenheretic]

Thanks, Puyallupknifeguy, and my apologies to all :o .
Let's try again
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/dat ... ed0059.jpg
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/dat ... ed0058.jpg

Hi Saint-Just are those pictures of Fred Perrin designs? I haven't seen any of his work outside of Spyderco...

thanks
The Strange American :p

[arzh]

Hi Saint-Just are those pictures of Fred Perrin designs? I haven't seen any of his work outside of Spyderco...

thanks
The Strange American :p

all the design are from fred perrin
you can see more here
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/cat ... 0bf838ae90

i have a lot of new stuff to put in the gallery
good surf
jerome

[zenheretic]

all the design are from fred perrin
you can see more here
http://www.espace-martial.com/album/cat ... 0bf838ae90

i have a lot of new stuff to put in the gallery
good surf
jerome

Jerome, I believe you stated lock blades are illegal in France, what about these tiny fixed blades?

[Richard IV]

Back to the initial subject:

Self defense with a knife is by no way an honorable duel...

A small concealed blade used on an unsuspecting foe grappling you (or a dog biting you) can be very efficient.

You just need to be able to open it one handed. A swift slice on a thigh: pain, surprise, bleeding and game over (I mean, you run :D ). This is a typical SD action.

Now, almost every :spyder: seems to fit. Hooked blades are even better for this "job".

"Combat knives" are meant for war. Big, strong, mean looking, able to thrust and cut. Their purpose is to kill. They are, of course, better for close combat than a Cricket. But if your foe has a machete, he wins because of the reach(unless you are very well trained).

So, what kind of SD situation are we talking about?

[Richard IV]

Jerome, I believe you stated lock blades are illegal in France, what about these tiny fixed blades?

They are illegal.

R.IV

[arzh]

yes it's very very hard to find our ultimate knife
at this time it's my ukpk

the only legal :spyder: in france

cheers jerome

I know... :mad:

Do I care? Well... Not really :D


R.IV

at this time my edc is:
perrin shark (illegal)
ukpk (legal)
the spin or a subcom (illegal)
and a leatherman side clip (legal)

in urban version

[arzh]

for sd the knife is the worst tool, just as a last resort
i prefer impact tool

[Joe Talmadge]

As such, until the social climate improves in regards to the carry of larger knives, it is very important to realize that carrying a smaller blade as a primary carry should be the rule, and not the exception. And it is in light of this unfortunate realization that the smaller blade (sub-3 inch), when accompanied by appropriate training, handle, and opening method, has a great advantage over larger tactical folders with blades in the 4-5 inch range. As rediculous as it may be, the difference between an Endura and a Dodo can be either spending the night in county lock up (justly or unjustly) or having a police officer complimenting you on your "cool little pocket knife". As a graduate student working on a career as a university professor, I'd prefer the latter well over the former.
-Mike

With the caveat that we're not talking about the Spin in particular, but just the effectiveness of small blades, I can agree that a small blade can be an effective equalizer. But a bigger blade will often be more effective, so you're always trading that off -- you should be under no illusion that there is a tradeoff, and the stakes are high. I don't know there's any real evidence whatsoever that "the difference between an Endura and a Dodo can be either spending the night in county lock up (justly or unjustly) or having a police officer complimenting you on your 'cool little pocket knife'". If both are legal to carry and it's just a matter of the officer seeing it in your pocket, the officer shouldn't be hassling you and this shouldn't factor into your thinking since you will eventually prevail. If the endura is not legal to carry, that changes things, then of course you should pick the smaller knife.

But the context of your initial post was self-defense, and I haven't seen any evidence that a mere size difference is enough to completely tip the scales ... and when I think about it, the Dodo's scary blade might be more important than the Endura's longer blade! Certainly, if I were a DA, I'd be looking at the blade on that Dodo and thinking my case just got stronger. In self defense situations, the most important things seem to be that 1. You are legally and morally in the right, and 2. there are witnesses to back up your story. Without both of those things, you'll likely be charged regardless of blade size.

In summary, I think that what you carry should be legal. I think you should act in a legal and moral manner. And I think you should carry what's most effective for you (which usually means bigger is better, to a point), provided you keep with the prior rules ... but that you should take common-sense steps to try to avoid provocatively-named knives and provocatively-shaped knives if you can. I understand your argument, but just haven't seen enough evidence to know if the decrease in effectiveness is being traded off for a merely-theoretical increase in legal-proofness.

That said, I don't feel under-knifed with a waved delica.


Joe

[markg]

If you live in a place where the carry of concealed firearms is legal, by all means take that choice. Using a knife, even for self-defense, is seen as a dirty thing. Even if you are in the right, you will have a few strikes against you.

The funny thing is, if you shot someone one in the same circumstances, you don't share the same stigma. I know it should not matter, but it does.

[Saint-Just]

If you live in a place where the carry of concealed firearms is legal, by all means take that choice.

Interesting. I do not dispute all the positives but I would like to submit 2 real questions.
1) The Cold War was all about the power of disuasion (hence my post with AK 47 and large Bowie). Wouldn't it then be reasonable to assume that a visible weapon is likely to AVOID you to get in a situation where you actually have to USE your SD skills (or lack of)?
Of course, the downside is that he who wants to attack you knows he needs a gun to do it. But maybe it does reduce the possibility.
2) Don't you think that a concealed weapon is more likely to make you act differently BEFORE the actual attack, like respond to verbal abuse where you would have walked (run) otherwise, hence multiply the chances of a confrontation?
I know it certainly is the case when you play poker with newbies who have been dealt a relatively good hand. They feel a lot more secure and play more aggressively. I believe that all of us who are not LEO, paramedics, firemen, etc... i.e. who are not confronted regularly to real violence will be the equivalent of those poker tenderfeet, no matter how much training has been done in the dojo.

Hi Saint-Just are those pictures of Fred Perrin designs? I haven't seen any of his work outside of Spyderco...

Hi zen
Sorry I didn't come back to you but Jerome is by far the most qualified person to speak about FP. My links earlier where taken from one of his posts.

Saint-Just
The strange Frenchman living in England :p

[Michael Cook]

2) Don't you think that a concealed weapon is more likely to make you act differently BEFORE the actual attack, like respond to verbal abuse where you would have walked (run) otherwise, hence multiply the chances of a confrontation?

:spyder: Just the opposite. People who have carry permits will lose them pretty fast if they start acting like a fool with it. This is one of the reasons there's so little crime associated with permit holders. Likewise fools who act foolishly with knives will be disarmed and arrested quickly since there's so few situations that justify their martial deployment. (lethal force used only when in fear for life of self and loved ones) One cannot provoke a fight and then claim self-defence. :spyder:

[Episteme]

Spydermike-
It is interesting that your choice for an optimal self-defense Spyderco is the D'Allara rescue model. A while back I posted my thoughts on the Spyderco Rescue series knives insofar as I believe that they have not received due credit for being effective slashers. The fully serrated sheepsfoot blade, in my opinion, could make for a fearsome tool against a violent assailent in that it would cut with the same effectivness as the Wharncliff blade on a slash, which from what I've read here on the forums, is downright treacherous.
Mike

[smcfalls13]

Not to mention that using a "Rescue" knife as a self defense knife is going to make your court case pretty easy to prove as self defense. It'll be a stretch for the prosecution to use the knife description against you.

[Th232]

Out of curiosity, how would something like the Civilian go down in court?

Pros:
Name (admittedly a weak reason)
Designed for self-defense, and not offense, ie pain/intimidation instead of killing (excluding a direct hit on an artery, &c)

Cons:
Looks
Designed specifically to be used to inflict wounds on people, as opposed to general-purpose cutting.

I'm guessing not very well, but does anyone have any other thoughts about it?

Edit: For clarification

[Dr. Snubnose]

I can already see the prosecuting attorney waving it above his head....I think it all depends on how and why, and what for it was used....each case will be and should be decided on it's own circumstances and events that take place before...during...and afterwards......Doc :D

[iceaxe]

The notion of "stopping power" is widely debated and widely misunderstood among handgun owners. Yes a .50 Desert Eagle will make a very large hole in someone, but will you be able to handle the weapon under stress? And yes, a "sawed-off" shotgun is clearly the most 'forgiving' SD firearm, but they're illegal and you look like a dork trying to hide the thing under a long coat ala The Matrix. A well-placed .22 round is better than missing with a .45.

It's the same with knives. Someone with a Cricket can do a lot of damage while you're wrestling to pull a machete out of your pants leg. That said, however, for SD you should use the largest knife you can wield effectively.

"Effectively" means several things. It means a knife you have trained with, are used to holding, and can carry without attracting undue attention, be it law enforcement or even provoking a civilian with an aggressive predisposition. And if you're serious about SD, forget any knive with a handle smaller than your hand (or a index finger hole).

Lest you think you're prepared for the stress of a life and death struggle, consider the following:

The .40 S&W and .357 SIG cartridges were both designed in response to a well-documented case of under-penetration by a 9mm round in a LE gun battle. The 10mm was deemed too powerful to shoot with consistent accuracy, and tended to "over-penetrate." When testing the new calibers, the balistic experts decided to ignore the threat to the public in cases where the round passed through the target.

Why? Because when they evaluated documented FBI gun battles, 80% of the rounds fired by agents missed their targets completely.

Read that again. :-) Well-trained FBI agents, firing their personal service handguns, miss their assailants 80% of the time.

My tactical folder is a SOG Trident Tanto TF-7. As an assisted opener with a 3.75" blade, carrying it could be questioned legally. Considering I have a CCW for my GLOCK .40S&W, I find this kind of amusing. But if I'm carrying a concealed tactical folder -- just like when carrying the GLOCK -- it stays concealed unless I find myself in a "tactical" situation. If it saves my life and LE has a problem with that...? I'll deal with that later.

Finally, and sorry for the long post, this is not an "aggressive" thread. How we deal with the threat of violence is a personal choice. Sometimes the proper attitude can diffuse a violent confrontation, and sometimes just the presence of a weapon can ignite one. Yet with some assailants, reason and rationality are utterly useless. The only constants are that making the right decision will be extremely difficult at the time, and that the truly irresponsible course of action is carrying a weapon without learning how best to use it.

[markg]

Out of curiosity, how would something like the Civilian go down in court?

If I used a Civilian in any active of force...

I would kiss my mama good bye and get real used to prison food...

If you ever use the Civilian for its intended purpose, I really hope you are good friends with a really great defense attorney.

That being said, I love the knife and have one. :D

[Episteme]

I own a G-10 Civilian; i used to carry it, but upon some active reflection on the legal consequences of using this blade even in justified self defense, I have decided to retire it from active carry and keep it as a collector's piece.
My daily carry consists of a Rescue 93mm kept razor sharp, and my Yellow Tasman SE. Additionally, I've been carrying my FRN Endura 3 in SE, which I like very much. All three knives are very light, and boast terrific cutting power if I ever need a self defense piece.
More and more I am realizing the virtues of the Rescue series Spydercos for self-defense applications, especially MBC cutting. The cutting performance should be similar to the Wharncliff blade (yojimbo), plus the legal aspects of using your "Rescue" knife for self defense seems to be a mitigating factor (using a blade for self-defense, one will need all the help one can get to tip the scales in favor of them and not the DA, even if it is a clear cut case of self-defense).
Perhaps the ultimate self-defense piece that is both large enough for a good grip and also legally and politically "friendly" would be the Yellow Pacific Salt in serrated edge (sheepsfoot). The yellow handle makes it less "tactical" looking, the fully serrated sheepsfoot blade will cut like a chainsaw through almost anything, and its carry can be justified as a "rescue" knife, thus reducing the possibility of the knife being deemed an offensive weapon per se.
Mike