CPM S30V...JD's verion of a closer look

[catamount]

s30v is a wonderful steel, not perfect, but **** good. it is light years ahead of vg-10.

I don't have much experience with S30V. In what specific areas is it superior to VG-10?

[smcfalls13]

I don't have much experience with S30V. In what specific areas is it superior to VG-10?

It's not. VG-10 is neck in neck with S30V, in my opinion.

[HoB]

Well, in specific areas, in my experience S30V is substantially more wear resistant than VG-10. So if you cut yards of cardboard or miles of carpet you can distinguish pretty easily between S30V and VG-10 in my opinion, but that doesn't make S30V the better steel. Better suited for a specific application yes.

[Zac]

VG-10 takes a finer edge than any other steel including S30V. This can easily be seen as to how fine it can be made with the ultra-fine Sharpmaker rods. It would not be suprising to me if VG10 is used in surgical tools. When I had a deep splinter in me, I used a freshly sharpened VG-10 Delica to literally slice into my own skin and remove the splinter. The cut was so accurate, precise and clean that I barely felt this knife going rather deep into me and the cut healed fast. I forget what makes it take this edge, vandium or chromium or something, but that steels takes the best edge of any and is easy (at least IMO) to sharpen. VG-10 also has great corrosion resistance as I have used that and S30V (neither coated) in Saltwater applications. However, I am a poor judge as I use Tuf Cloth often which makes good steels impervious to the elements of nature.

[thombrogan]

I find it ideal for very heavy usage although I touch up my Manix and Chinook every other day. It works great for heavy usage when one has the time to do the edge back up more often.

Maybe we have different opinions of light and heavy useage? To me, cutting cardboard, whether it's a few boxes or several dozen boxes into little 3" x 5" rectangles and cutting meat and most fruits and vegetables and cutting leather and cutting softwood are all light use. For non-stainless steels, cutting thin pieces of metal, like copper wiring or sheetmetal, is also light use.

An oyster knife, knives that cut hardwood (especially stuff like oak impregnated with silica) or skin hides embedded with grit, or dig in very rocky soil all see hard use.

There are definately more robust steels out their, but I cannot say they are better because they are usually ridiculously expensive and some seem to be too brittle for the jobs I use my knives in.

Most steels with a higher toughness at the same hardness as S30V cost less to purchase, cost less to grind, and cost less to heat treat. They often trade off S30V's corrosion resistance and wear resistance (sometimes just one or the other in the cases of M2 and H1). Most knife uses, even as 'weapons' :rolleyes: :eek: , fall under the category of light use, and that's where S30V excels.

I do not know how hard Spyderco's S30V is, do you?

Between RC-58 and RC-60. Most of the time closer to RC-59, RC-60. I had my favorite S30V :spyder: rehardened to about RC61 and my Chinook II and Yojimbo were originally RC58 and my ATR was originally RC59.5.

Spyderco has chosen CPM S30V for their top end knives which says something right their.

Yes, it does, but if you can't tell me why that choice was made and whether or not you'd agree with those reasons, you shouldn't bring it up. You're pointing to the fame of Spyderco to back up your words instead of using reasoning.

So does Chris Reeve's choice to do that as well.

Chris Reeve seems like a nice guy, but his choice to use S30V doesn't make it good or bad.

What I am saying is that I really like S30V, a whole lot, but it was promoted as being a different steel than what it actually is. It's reality is very good; just a different very good.

By the way, with practice, you'll be able to get your S30V blades just as sharp, or sharper, than your VG10 blades, and their edges will last longer, so keep up the good work with your Sharpmaker.

[Zac]

[quote="thombrogan"]Maybe we have different opinions of light and heavy useage? To me, cutting cardboard, whether it's a few boxes or several dozen boxes into little 3" x 5" rectangles and cutting meat and most fruits and vegetables and cutting leather and cutting softwood are all light use. For non-stainless steels, cutting thin pieces of metal, like copper wiring or sheetmetal, is also light use.

An oyster knife, knives that cut hardwood (especially stuff like oak impregnated with silica) or skin hides embedded with grit, or dig in very rocky soil all see hard use.



Most steels with a higher toughness at the same hardness as S30V cost less to purchase, cost less to grind, and cost less to heat treat. They often trade off S30V's corrosion resistance and wear resistance (sometimes just one or the other in the cases of M2 and H1). Most knife uses, even as 'weapons' :rolleyes: :eek: , fall under the category of light use, and that's where S30V excels.



Between RC-58 and RC-60. Most of the time closer to RC-59, RC-60. I had my favorite S30V :spyder: rehardened to about RC61 and my Chinook II and Yojimbo were originally RC58 and my ATR was originally RC59.5.



Yes, it does, but if you can't tell me why that choice was made and whether or not you'd agree with those reasons, you shouldn't bring it up. You're pointing to the fame of Spyderco to back up your words instead of using reasoning.



Chris Reeve seems like a nice guy, but his choice to use S30V doesn't make it good or bad.

What I am saying is that I really like S30V, a whole lot, but it was promoted as being a different steel than what it actually is. It's reality is very good]

I suppose our definitions do vary. However, in the last week, I have made approximately 27,000 6 inch cuts into very rocky soil with my Manix on a tough fabric on a farm in that this fabric traps in moisture and prevents unwanted weed growth. The blade goes into the soil and scrapes and hits rocks. The serations were also used to cut rather strong nylon, some copper wire, and quite a lot of chicken wire. It is scraped now, and I am about to polish it and make all of those scratches disapear. Mind you, the excellent flat grind probably helps avoid chipping as the point is intact and blade wear is minimal although it is offocially dull enough to use the normal white stones before going to extra fine. I would call that pretty hard usage; not as far as oyster prying or aluminum sheet metal cutting, but I have a tool for oysters and a plasma cutter. Isn't citing that Spyderco uses it a reason on its own given that they own the patent world of knives essentially and almost always make the best decisions in their knives? Keating chose it for its flexible properties and that Spyderco was beginning to use it on their other high end knives (although Ken Onion personally said if he were to make the ideal knife, it would be in 440, a steel that varies an amazing amount)? :confused:

And I am interested in how you had the steel rehardened as I always would love an extra or two up on the Rc?

[thombrogan]

That's pretty hard use in my book.

My brain's fried.

[JD Spydo]

I attended a seminar today at the BLADE Show that was put on by CRUCIBLE. They were explaining how that their M-4 high speed steel was a premium, paramount blade steel that the knife community was grossly overlooking. They had their top dog metallurgist there and he made a great presentation on the metal.

The Crucible people stayed after the seminar and answered many questions I had for them. They compared it heavily to D-2, M-2 & S30V. They emphasized that it was not a stainless but had unbelievable properties for cutting tools of all types. I was impressed. I can't wait to get my hands on a blade made of M-4.

I am wondering which Spyder would be an excellent candidate for the M-4 debut. BLADE show was excellent but I only found one Forumite :confused:

[Zac]

If its a metal made for heavy cutting, put it in a knife body for heavy cutting...the Manix or Chinook IV.

[J Smith]

BLADE show was excellent but I only found one Forumite

I was looking for ya.

[Axlis]

I was looking for ya.

I'm sorry I missed everyone today, I should have hung out at the Spyderco booth more often :p

[SoCal Operator]

WHAT?! I'm not willing to break my knives to prove it, but I have serious doubts that S30V is capable of prying anything other than light wood.

Doesn't Peter Atwood use S30V in his pry tools?

[orthogonal1]

I think S30V is a good steel - but then most steels can be good given correct application and CORRECT HEAT TREATMENT.

But, hey, now that that other company has stopped using M2, how 'bout someone steppin' in with M4?

That's my potential ideal.

[Joe Talmadge]

Doesn't Peter Atwood use S30V in his pry tools?

The relative thickness of the tool, combined with relative shortness, makes this pretty easy. It doesn't say anything about S30V to work well in that tool. ****, he even makes those tools work with titanium, which is weaker than steel. I have an S30V Prybaby which works nicely.

[SoCal Operator]

The relative thickness of the tool, combined with relative shortness, makes this pretty easy. It doesn't say anything about S30V to work well in that tool. ****, he even makes those tools work with titanium, which is weaker than steel. I have an S30V Prybaby which works nicely.

I need to apologize, as my earlier post was more of a smart-a$$ comment then anything constructive. I try to bear in mind that heat treatment is pivotal in any steel, (barring H-1) and is really the deciding factor in performance; but I am having too much fun reading this thread to let my opinion on steel rest with that. The amount of information and insight here is really remarkable.

[Zac]

The relative thickness of the tool, combined with relative shortness, makes this pretty easy. It doesn't say anything about S30V to work well in that tool. ****, he even makes those tools work with titanium, which is weaker than steel. I have an S30V Prybaby which works nicely.

Titanium has properties which are far superior to many high end steels, which is likely why that material is used.

[Joe Talmadge]

Titanium has properties which are far superior to many high end steels, which is likely why that material is used.

Not for those types of tools. The steel is for a better performing tool (stronger, etc), the titanium is if you're willing to trade that off for light weight and, well, because you like titanium.

[Sundown]

Not for those types of tools. The steel is for a better performing tool (stronger, etc), the titanium is if you're willing to trade that off for light weight and, well, because you like titanium.

You are most correct, Joe. Peter has even stated this on another forum. Zac & SoCal, what does Mr. Atwood use on his larger pry-tools, like the "bug-out-bar"? I'll give you a clue, it ain't S30V.

The "prybaby" is ok in S30V due to its small size. You cannot get enough leverage with it to break the fairly thick bar of S30V its made from. However, S30V is definitely not the steel I would want in a serious, hard-use prybar if my life depended on it.

Best wishes,
Sundown

[GarageBoy]

That's odd, S30V's attritbute is that it holds a nice fine edge (which it does in my experience)

[HoB]

It does, due to the CPM process the primary carbides are well distributed and not excessive in size. It is finer grained than ATS-34/154CM for example and finer than you might guess from the chemical composition, but it is not as fine as some other steels, especially not those that lack appreciable amounts of primary carbides.