Getting It Out

[Lost Jaguar]

After a day or two with my new Yojimbo, I found myself pondering the age-old dilemna for SD knife lovers. No matter the superb execution of a SD folder, which Spyderco has perfected in more than one model, we are still confronted with the problem of "getting it out" in a hurry. A folder, no matter the quality of steel, the reliability of the lock, and the seamlessness of parts fitting, is still a folder, inherently slower than the cheapest made-in-China fixed blade. I would speculate that the majority of SD uses of knives are in a reaction-to-ambush sort of scenario. In these cases, performing the draw and opening of a folder, while under extreme duress, is challenging to say the least. Do any of my fellow forumites have any thoughts on the "quick draw" issue? Like, which of the Spyderco folders are the best for this? Many of us, for one reason or another, are precluded from carrying a fixed-blade of ANY size, so we are back to the issue of unfolding sharp steel at a moment when our fingers are like fat sausages, and our reaction time is slowed.

In the case of the magnificent Yojimbo, we have a folder that cuts in defense like nothing else, but we still have to pull it out of our pants and open it. I would submit that even though a waved Endura is a leading candidate for ambush response, after months of practice with it, I myself still have occasional foul-ups.

Is there any folder that can be deployed like a fixed blade, or are we just kidding ourselves?

[bquinlan]

Mostly I think we're kidding ourselves.

Waved folders come the closest to simulating a fixed blade's draw speed, but even there any clip arrangement slows you down a bit relative to grabbing the handle of a sheathed fixed blade.

On the other hand, I think the fixed blade proponents may be kidding themselves just a bit too. In the face of a serious attack there probably won't be time for any kind of draw, no matter how fast and easy. Unless the attacker fails to follow-through you're likely to be too busy staying alive to go for any kind of weapon.

I think weapons are most useful in dealing with anticipated trouble, not ambushes. The ability to get one out quickly and reliably does still matter, but it is not the most important issue. And getting one out without being obvious is probably more important than we often credit.

--Bob Q

[Irish Lager]

The way i see it, the main advantage to knives like the Yojimbo and Scropius is that they make a good impact tool as well, and if in the situation that impact tool could buy you some time, or avoid having to use a blade at all.
J

[ruxton]

Yeah, the joy of the yojimbo is using it as a kubotan. As spydies go I've found it to be one of the faster knives on the draw, with the millie sized hole and the lack of resistance normally present on a back-lock. In fact mine is worryingly eager to come out and play, with the agressive grooves on the spine it sometimes catches on my pocket like a wave and opens a little before its fully out and stabs into my trousers. This is probably because unlike a normal spydie the tip sits below the pocketline when in the pocket. In a SD situation this might be a good thing as it would open all by itself (but you'd get through a lot of trousers). :D

[skcusloa]

Why not carry the folder like a fixed blade? Sounds dumb, but if laws forbid you from carrying a fixed blade, just carry the folder open in a sheath.

Carry something that doesn't look like a weapon, a screwdiver perhaps? I'm sure you could put an edge on one of those...

[Mr Blonde]

Practice with drones and a partner has taught me that the most secure way of opening a knife when under attack, is to use empty hand tactics first, a closed folder second and an opened one third and last.

Empty hand tactics can be nothing more than a well directe push or shove. This creates distance and time. Now there is time to observe and think. More sophisticated techniques allow you to redirect the attacker's weapon, away from or -if you're lucky- against him. All this helps creates time and distance to get out your folder. In grappling style attacks, the folder is easier to get out -more time-, and using it as an impact device is often the safer way to use it. I don't want to cut myself. The folder has its place, but moreso as an escape tool rather than a duelling weapon.

Then again, practice can make you very fluent and -very- fast. Which is fun too!

Wouter

[Hapkidoin]

Here, Here

I agree with Mr Blond completely. Empty hand technique will buy you the time to decide to deploy and do so if necessary. This is important whether you are deploying a folder or a sidearm. The edged weapon is used so many times as a ambush weapon, with the assailant using an "interview" to distract and close on you, that you need the time and space that can be gained.

Chuck Callahan

[Dr. Snubnose]

Everyone has given good advice so far on this thread...I backed off the tension screw just a tad on my SD Yojimbo, (no blade wobble) just 1/8 degree turn was enough that when I draw from the pocket straight up in the air the knife opens through inertia...closest thing to a fixed blade, for myself I always carry a fixed blade as well...other than that there is nothing I can add to the advice already given, which is very sound advice.....Doc :D

[Jurphaas]

Hi LJ - You seem to have listed all there is to know about the disadvantages of a folder for SD. Now you are basically asking who aggrees with you. If you are so convinsed that a folder doesn't cut it, go with a fixed blade if that suits your style better.
For my part however, I believe that Mr. Blonde sums it up pretty much in a realistic manner. This is how I believe you should respond in situations you discribe.

Don't take me wrong but lesson 1 = to keep your egress options open at all times. So situational awareness is the main thing.
Thanks, Jurphaas. :)

[Lost Jaguar]

Thank you, gentlemen. In regards to using a folder such as the Yojimbo as an impact weapon, to buy time for opening the blade, or as Jurphaas suggests, to clear the way for "exit, stage right," what type of strike are we talking about? I picture a hammer-fist, with the butt end of the knife projecting from the pinky end of the closed fist. My experience with street fighting is thankfully limited.

As for carrying a fixed blade instead, even where legal, if its set up properly for defensive draw, a hoplophobic deputy district attorney could make a strong case for a "combat mindset," with unpleasant consequences for the defendant. Mr. Ayoob has made a strong case for discretion in the selection and carrying of weapons. This brings me to that other issue we knife lovers face often: the demonization of weapons in a decadent, dangerous society.

I concur that avoidance and awareness are the most important self-defense tools.

[argyll]

Why not carry the folder like a fixed blade? Sounds dumb, but if laws forbid you from carrying a fixed blade, just carry the folder open in a sheath.

Carry something that doesn't look like a weapon, a screwdiver perhaps? I'm sure you could put an edge on one of those...

Can't speak for all states, but an open folder in a sheath is treated exactly the same as a fixed blade under California law, i.e. illegal to carry concealed. The same would be true of a sharpened screw driver.

Best regards,

Argyll

[ruxton]

I picture a hammer-fist, with the butt end of the knife projecting from the pinky end of the closed fist.

Exactly, hammer-fist strikes against bony targets is the ideal way to use one, in a grappling situation I would rather go for pressure points around the head or groin. Also if it comes down to it you can allways just punch the guy, the added weight of the knife in your hand will add significant weight to the punch. Failing all that if it's life or death you can open it and use the blade. I agree with Mr. Blonde though chances are you aren't going to have time to get it out, so immediate reflex retaliation to an attack with something like a straight punch or a low sidekick to the knee is the order of the day, this will usually create enought distance for you to be able to run and not have to draw your blade at all.

[ghostrider]

As for carrying a fixed blade instead, even where legal, if its set up properly for defensive draw, a hoplophobic deputy district attorney could make a strong case for a "combat mindset," with unpleasant consequences for the defendant. Mr. Ayoob has made a strong case for discretion in the selection and carrying of weapons. This brings me to that other issue we knife lovers face often: the demonization of weapons in a decadent, dangerous society.

I was thinking about this last night when looking at my Yojimbo. The name itself translates as "Bodyguard", and the name of the designer (who just so happens to be a knife fighting tactics instructor), as well as the model name is on the blade. We already know that the name "Military" being etched onto the blade of a knife, was used in court against a man defending his life as an indicator that his intent was unlawful. Am I the only one who sees a similarity here?

Also, there seems to be a common thread of thought that a citizen will face persecution for even thinking of preparing himself for SD. Many times have I heard someone say "don't tell the cop you have it for self-defense" or that doing so won't bode well for one in court. I can't speak for other countries, but it is a sad event in the course of Amerikan history when it's citizens live in fear of even having the audacity of wanting to preserve their life, property, welfare, and well being.

IMHO, a choice of SD is, and should be considered a life or death matter. Not to be mistaken with “always a life or death matter”, but when physical, mortal combat arises in a non-controlled environment; the possibility does exist, and should therefore be treated as such IMHO (irregardless of what some judge, lawmaker, or DA who don’t truly care about your individual welfare, or safety may think). Therefore, when we make a choice on carrying a specific weapon, based on whether or not it could land us in jail, we are in essence choosing (more accurately: being forced to chose) between death, and jail. This is a position we as citizens have been put in, and it is indicative of just how far an Amerikan police state has progressed.

I also think that we, as gun/knife owners are partially responsible for this. The founders warned us that it was up to us as citizens to preserve the Republic, because they knew that the Constitution wouldn’t. For years, when the minorities of society have demonized us for owning/carrying such weapons, as is our right to choose, we have cowered from such criticism for fear of being labeled (extreme, radical, or “gun/knife-nut”). Now, because of such attitudes, it is not considered by society as “normal” to carry a gun/knife, when it should be considered so. The idea of wishing to defend oneself with the best means possible is also demonized, and again, we cower, and let those with the courage to do so be labeled in a negative light, instead of as the heroes they truly are.

Before you say “I’m a CCL holder, so I’m not one of those”, stop and consider exactly what that could imply, or even mean. By applying for a permit or license, you are in essence asking the state for permission. IIRC, in a court of law, once a defendant begins to speak in his defense, that defendant has at the time of his speaking, given up his right to remain silent. Doing so after that can land him in jail for contempt. . I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that by asking permission to keep and bear arms, you are in effect admitting that you have no right to do so since one doesn’t ask permission to do something that is already within his rights to do. In a thread from a couple weeks ago, a fellow forumite pointed out that most lawyers will tell you that a fast way to jail is to take the stand that one has a right to keep and bear arms, or that you only carry for SD. This is again indicative of just how much individual rights are not respected in this country, and sadly, we allow the normalization of this attitude through our own complacency.

[Mr Blonde]

[quote=" I picture a hammer-fist, with the butt end of the knife projecting from the pinky end of the closed fist.[/QUOTE"]

Sure, the hammer-fist technique is the easy and safe way to strike, allowing you a really fast transition to opening the blade (if the closed blade's hole is facing your palm). But the 'fun' really starts with the butt-end pointing forward. More range and more articulation of the 'palm-stick' is possible now. The yojimbo is the only folder design that lets you do this, securely. With the butt-end pointing forward it's much easier to get out of a grappling/strangulation type of attack. Just punch, maintain contact and pressure....and shake it all around. No targets to choose, anything works. :D Ofcourse, that's in a training session, with intoxicated atttackers YMMV. This style of defense is what I teach all novices who want a quick & easy way of learning self-defense techniques. Naturally, they use Mini-Maglites, and not knives. preferrably AAA models.


Actually, I always liked to think that the small stick or ASP baton is preferrable to a fixed blade. More range, options (striking/poking/blocking/grappling etc...) and there's much less chance of hurting yourself when you're rolling all over the place. :D

Wouter

[Jurphaas]

Wouter - I find your explanations and ideas very interesting indeed. Next time we meet I would like to hear, see, and learn more and about this very subject.

See you next time!
Jurphaas.

[Lost Jaguar]

Ghostrider--I agree with you 100%. As human beings, we have the right of armed self-defense as the lion has the right to have fangs and claws. I believe we should be able to carry a Bagwell Bowie and a selective fire M4 carbine if we so choose. I am not ready, at my advanced age of 50 years, to sacrifice my liberty, and considerable legal funds, to prove this point. I leave this to a younger generation. My time for aggressive promotion of liberty was in the 1980's, when I was young and single, and I could participate in all manner of actions in the service of Liberty, legal or otherwise. Those wild and wooly days are behind me, much to my regret. And I also regret, as noted in my previous post, that our society has come to a point where self-defense, and its tools, are demonized.

As such, I keep myself reasonably fit, carry what weapons I can, and encourage young bucks (and does) to do the same.

Ideally, I would regularly wear my Shivworks Clinch-Pick on my belt. I feel that its perfect for its task: immediate response to a sudden, close-range threat. However, the world in which I travel looks askance at the little S30V bugger. And so, I fall back on a folder, and ponder the subtle art of getting it out.

[ghostrider]

Hey, I'm not point any fingers here LJ. I just like a lot of peopl who don't want to sacrafice their freedom just because they want to exercise a right. You won't see me walking around with a permitless gun just because it is well within my right. However, I won't live in denial about the state of the country that such circumstances leave us in.

[Mr Blonde]

[quote="Jurphaas"]Wouter - I find your explanations and ideas very interesting indeed. Next time we meet I would like to hear, see, and learn more and about this very subject.

See you next time!
Jurphaas. ]

Hehe, you're on!!! :D 'till next time!

Wouter

[Lost Jaguar]

Too cool, Ghostrider.

By the way, I like your sig line very much.