A year or so ago there was the discussion of the idea of a purpose-built firefighter's folder. I don't know if it is an idea that is being quietly pursued at Spyderco, but if it is, perhaps we could help explore the idea here -- if not, we can still explore just as an abstract exercise.
If anyone is interested I could dredge up some info from the original thread.
As far an some of my own notions, I was thinking about the price-point issue. In the original discussion it was proposed that a Gunting type design with its price should be pursued, even though it was thought it might be too high to be considered by the actual firefighters market. The real firefighters made suggestions more along the line of the Endura.
When looking at the production Vesuvius I realized that a similar basic construction could be used for a firefigher's clipit, except with coloured FRN. This had never been discussed since the only FRN compression lock knife is a late development.
So my basic ideas for such a clipit, are compression lock, orange or yellow FRN, and a blade with high-toughness, highly stain resistant steel like AUS-8. The blade shape would have to be reinforced for piercing and prying forces. I think that the old ideas of a Gunting-style kinetic opener, extra long handle, modest blade length, and a BIG opening hole are still good.
But an important key to the actual firefighter's market is the price point, which should be the same, IMO, as the steel Police or less.
Any thoughts?
Firefighter's clipit.
One more idea:
Is it possible to have a guard and a choil on the same folder? Up until now they have been mutually exclusive: a knife is designed either to lock your hand back behind the blade, or to allow you to choke up easily on the blade.
I was thinking that you could put a projection (from the tang?) between the choil and the rest of the handle, like a "subhilt," so that when choked up the projection would be between the forefinger and index finger -- allowing fine control and a positive lock -- and when holding the knife in a "hammer" grip, the projection would be ahead of the forefinger, acting like a normal guard. Waddaya think, too weird?
Is it possible to have a guard and a choil on the same folder? Up until now they have been mutually exclusive: a knife is designed either to lock your hand back behind the blade, or to allow you to choke up easily on the blade.
I was thinking that you could put a projection (from the tang?) between the choil and the rest of the handle, like a "subhilt," so that when choked up the projection would be between the forefinger and index finger -- allowing fine control and a positive lock -- and when holding the knife in a "hammer" grip, the projection would be ahead of the forefinger, acting like a normal guard. Waddaya think, too weird?
Carlos,
Personally I would prefer the modified Gunting version. You are right that the cost of such knife would be an issue. But then there are many in Public Service that think the cost of the Police model is way too much for a knife.
From what I remember of the original firefighter knife idea was a knife designed to withstand an abnormal amount of use and even some abuse. I believe the knife was even supposed to be able to handle some prying.
Such a knife would probably require an MBC strength lock and a specially designed and built blade made out of a premium steel. I can't think of any folding knife, Spyderco or otherwise, that has ever been designed to withstand prying (with the blade). It seems to me that it would be very difficult to build a knife designed to withstand forces that violate pretty much every manufacture warranty without trying to save a lot of money at the same time. It looks like Spyderco is exploring new ground and exploration is never cheap. Like all new technology it will probably have to be around for a while before it becomes more affordable.
Another advantage to using an existing handle platform (the Gunting) should hopefully be a shorter time to production.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
-Glenn
Personally I would prefer the modified Gunting version. You are right that the cost of such knife would be an issue. But then there are many in Public Service that think the cost of the Police model is way too much for a knife.
From what I remember of the original firefighter knife idea was a knife designed to withstand an abnormal amount of use and even some abuse. I believe the knife was even supposed to be able to handle some prying.
Such a knife would probably require an MBC strength lock and a specially designed and built blade made out of a premium steel. I can't think of any folding knife, Spyderco or otherwise, that has ever been designed to withstand prying (with the blade). It seems to me that it would be very difficult to build a knife designed to withstand forces that violate pretty much every manufacture warranty without trying to save a lot of money at the same time. It looks like Spyderco is exploring new ground and exploration is never cheap. Like all new technology it will probably have to be around for a while before it becomes more affordable.
Another advantage to using an existing handle platform (the Gunting) should hopefully be a shorter time to production.
I guess we will have to wait and see.
-Glenn
Hi Glenn,
Actually I think that a nested lock in FRN would be as strong or stronger than a layered construction with G10 like the Gunting, where all of the forces are on the pins. A nested lock in G10 (like Temperance) would be strongest, but we knifenuts do tend to forget just how tough FRN is -- firefighter halmets are made of thermoplastic.
"Premium" steel in this context is probably different from what we are used to. Our primary value elsewhere is extra-long edge-holding, whereas here toughness and resistance to rust is I think more important. More brittle and rust-prone steels like ATS-34 and 55, and CPM-440V might not serve as well as AUS-8, perhaps VG-10, and the old standby Gingami.
The reason why I sudggested the Police price point is that the steel Police model has been very successful with actual police officers in terms of sales, and it is still one of the best selling Spydercos. I agree that it is questionable that Departments would ever buy such knives, however it may be possible to offer an alternative to firefighters who are already using Enduras and Delicas, having bought them out of their own pockets.
Any new ideas guys?
Edited by - Carlos on 6/22/2001 4:30:40 PM
Actually I think that a nested lock in FRN would be as strong or stronger than a layered construction with G10 like the Gunting, where all of the forces are on the pins. A nested lock in G10 (like Temperance) would be strongest, but we knifenuts do tend to forget just how tough FRN is -- firefighter halmets are made of thermoplastic.
"Premium" steel in this context is probably different from what we are used to. Our primary value elsewhere is extra-long edge-holding, whereas here toughness and resistance to rust is I think more important. More brittle and rust-prone steels like ATS-34 and 55, and CPM-440V might not serve as well as AUS-8, perhaps VG-10, and the old standby Gingami.
The reason why I sudggested the Police price point is that the steel Police model has been very successful with actual police officers in terms of sales, and it is still one of the best selling Spydercos. I agree that it is questionable that Departments would ever buy such knives, however it may be possible to offer an alternative to firefighters who are already using Enduras and Delicas, having bought them out of their own pockets.
Any new ideas guys?
Edited by - Carlos on 6/22/2001 4:30:40 PM
Okay, I went and found the firefighter's thread. here are some quotes from actual firefighters on the subject:
Like alot of knife companies Spyderco makes and markets to the police and military, and like the others seem to over look the firefighters. I'd like to share my thoughts with you about this.Most try to lump ff's in with the e.m.s world, while we may do both we also do alot more. Knives like S+W first responce,Meyerco's blunt tip model ( forgot the name) and the rescue are to single purpose for most ff's . To much focus on seatbelts and cutting clothes.EMT shears are the way to go for this, safer plus you have to either wash or throw away things that get blood on them. I can drop my bloody shears in the plastic bio-hazard bag and buy new ones for $4. or wash them , what do I do with an open razor sharp knife? Ok what do I use a knife for ? Well around the firehouse the samethings you use a knife for at your house ,cutting rags,cardboard, food prep ect. Field use , cutting plastic and tar paper to cover windows, cutting burned carpet,( anything burned must be removed from the house),cutting open mattresses to get at hidden fire, when I have to clean out a cut I like to poke a hole in the plastic bottle of saline and squeeze out a stream instead of removing the cap and dumping it. "
"as a professional firefighter i agree there should be a specific model made for the firefighter. in everday use the clip point is best, with a partially serated blade . the hump and hole must be large (like the military)and the liner lock must be easily released using the very large gloves we are required to wear per NFPA stardards. the rescue model is not a good choice because of the sheepfoot blade ,as i have always used trauma shears to cut clothing on ems calls. the clip point will pierce through charred sheetrock (if u have happened to lay your axe down in smokey and dark conditions)it must also cut double cotton jacketed hose to remove old couplings, it must cut rescue rope, electrical wires and station supply boxes. as for cutting seatbelts , i have not and will never put the blade against the body and the seatbelt of an entrapped victim in an automoble . i cut at a point either above or below the victim. the handle must be highly visible(red). the steel needs to be cpm440 because firefighters are abusive to tools and want a knife that they dont want to sharpen often. the handle should be either g-10(which i prefer because it grips well when wet) or zytel without the clip that is presently on the endura , that clip rubs the zytel to pieces when you hang it . the handle must also withstand high heat AND intense cold. the price should be reasonable because firefighters are careful with their hardearned money."
"From my experience with both structural and wildland firefighting, an Endura always served me well. A couple possible areas of improvement: Over-sized Spydie hole for opening with gloves (ala the Military). Reinforced tip. Although folders are not meant to be pry bars, they will be used as such. Any design improvements to factor this in would be a plus. One kind of off-the-wall suggestion might to somehow add some steel to the butt end of the handle, for some extra mass as a field-expedient hammer. Price point is critical as Lone Hunter said. If I'm going to lose a knife, I want a performance blade I can easily and quickly replace that isn't going to hurt my wallet too terribly bad. One of many reasons I love the Delica/Endura family."
"taking into account what joel and lone said here is my compromise for perfect ff knife
1. military design in size and liner lock
2. red zytel with large clip with three screws
3. ats-55 partially serrated blade stamped on blade "FIREFIGHTER"
4. optional fixed blade type style shealth to clip on your SCBA straps and leave on when on duty
5. priced the same as endura cont,--
plan of action: advertise where we will see it FIREHOUSE MAGAZINE, NATIONAL FIRE AND RESCUE, (of which my chief is editor-in chief)
result: untapped thousands of volunteers and full-time ff wanting one
FREE evaluator of prototype by 13 year veteran of the Chapel Hill,NC fire dept.
listening.. "
"As for Zytel/FRN, I never had a problem with the old style Enduras with the plastic clip, even during fairly hot structural fires. The clip was always exposed when worn in my bunker pants, and I never saw signs of melting or deformation."
Like alot of knife companies Spyderco makes and markets to the police and military, and like the others seem to over look the firefighters. I'd like to share my thoughts with you about this.Most try to lump ff's in with the e.m.s world, while we may do both we also do alot more. Knives like S+W first responce,Meyerco's blunt tip model ( forgot the name) and the rescue are to single purpose for most ff's . To much focus on seatbelts and cutting clothes.EMT shears are the way to go for this, safer plus you have to either wash or throw away things that get blood on them. I can drop my bloody shears in the plastic bio-hazard bag and buy new ones for $4. or wash them , what do I do with an open razor sharp knife? Ok what do I use a knife for ? Well around the firehouse the samethings you use a knife for at your house ,cutting rags,cardboard, food prep ect. Field use , cutting plastic and tar paper to cover windows, cutting burned carpet,( anything burned must be removed from the house),cutting open mattresses to get at hidden fire, when I have to clean out a cut I like to poke a hole in the plastic bottle of saline and squeeze out a stream instead of removing the cap and dumping it. "
"as a professional firefighter i agree there should be a specific model made for the firefighter. in everday use the clip point is best, with a partially serated blade . the hump and hole must be large (like the military)and the liner lock must be easily released using the very large gloves we are required to wear per NFPA stardards. the rescue model is not a good choice because of the sheepfoot blade ,as i have always used trauma shears to cut clothing on ems calls. the clip point will pierce through charred sheetrock (if u have happened to lay your axe down in smokey and dark conditions)it must also cut double cotton jacketed hose to remove old couplings, it must cut rescue rope, electrical wires and station supply boxes. as for cutting seatbelts , i have not and will never put the blade against the body and the seatbelt of an entrapped victim in an automoble . i cut at a point either above or below the victim. the handle must be highly visible(red). the steel needs to be cpm440 because firefighters are abusive to tools and want a knife that they dont want to sharpen often. the handle should be either g-10(which i prefer because it grips well when wet) or zytel without the clip that is presently on the endura , that clip rubs the zytel to pieces when you hang it . the handle must also withstand high heat AND intense cold. the price should be reasonable because firefighters are careful with their hardearned money."
"From my experience with both structural and wildland firefighting, an Endura always served me well. A couple possible areas of improvement: Over-sized Spydie hole for opening with gloves (ala the Military). Reinforced tip. Although folders are not meant to be pry bars, they will be used as such. Any design improvements to factor this in would be a plus. One kind of off-the-wall suggestion might to somehow add some steel to the butt end of the handle, for some extra mass as a field-expedient hammer. Price point is critical as Lone Hunter said. If I'm going to lose a knife, I want a performance blade I can easily and quickly replace that isn't going to hurt my wallet too terribly bad. One of many reasons I love the Delica/Endura family."
"taking into account what joel and lone said here is my compromise for perfect ff knife
1. military design in size and liner lock
2. red zytel with large clip with three screws
3. ats-55 partially serrated blade stamped on blade "FIREFIGHTER"
4. optional fixed blade type style shealth to clip on your SCBA straps and leave on when on duty
5. priced the same as endura cont,--
plan of action: advertise where we will see it FIREHOUSE MAGAZINE, NATIONAL FIRE AND RESCUE, (of which my chief is editor-in chief)
result: untapped thousands of volunteers and full-time ff wanting one
FREE evaluator of prototype by 13 year veteran of the Chapel Hill,NC fire dept.
listening.. "
"As for Zytel/FRN, I never had a problem with the old style Enduras with the plastic clip, even during fairly hot structural fires. The clip was always exposed when worn in my bunker pants, and I never saw signs of melting or deformation."
Carlos,
I didn't realize that the compression lock on Temperance was stronger than the compression lock on the Gunting. However I an under the impression that the Compression lock on the Vesuvius was not as strong as the Gunting's. But I cannot remember if the Vesuvius is a nested lock like you propose. In the end it doesn't matter because it sounds like no matter the method the end result needs to be a very strong lock.
I am definitely not an engineer or knife designer but it sounds to me like the proposed firefighter knife would have to have these things
- A lock that meets or exceeds MBC standards.
- A highly visible handle that can withstand tough environments (hot + cold), does not get slippery when wet and that can be handled with big bulky gloves.
> this would probably be G-10 or FRN in an ergonomic handle that is larger than the blade (like the Gunting). It probably would have be orange or yellow.
- A way of opening the blade while wearing big bulky gloves
> this would seem to dictate a Kinetic Opening or large hole or perhaps both.
- A way of closing the blade while wearing big bulky gloves.
> I haven't tried it but I think this would be difficult with the current compression lock. Perhaps the solution is not to close the knife while in gear and have a sheath that accepts the knife in the open position.
- A way of carrying the knife both in and out of gear.
> the standard clip would work good while out of gear but maybe a sheath would be best when wearing the gear. This sheath would have to be able to withstand extreme temperatures because it would probably be permanently fixed to the gear.
- A way of breaking glass with the knife.
> This would probably have to be a specially designed but or blade but maybe the Kinetic Opening hump could be used for this.
- A blade capable of withstanding regular exposure to wet, cold and hot. It sounds like it would used for some prying, standard utility and some specialized cutting. (Clothes and seatbelts).
> The blade shape might have some kind of blunt strong tip
> In terms of Steels 440v is probably too brittle for prying. Vg-10 would probably be the best or maybe this would the right model for Spyderco to try 420v.
- As affordable as possible (very difficult with my preference for the more expensive steels.)
I can't help but notice that with an additional requirement of non corrosive materials this design would also work as a folding dive/rescue knife. > highly visible, strong, designed to be used with gloves and capable of some prying.
Oh well, that is just my uniformed opinion on it. Maybe you can tell that I am very interested in this knife concept.
-Glenn
I didn't realize that the compression lock on Temperance was stronger than the compression lock on the Gunting. However I an under the impression that the Compression lock on the Vesuvius was not as strong as the Gunting's. But I cannot remember if the Vesuvius is a nested lock like you propose. In the end it doesn't matter because it sounds like no matter the method the end result needs to be a very strong lock.
I am definitely not an engineer or knife designer but it sounds to me like the proposed firefighter knife would have to have these things
- A lock that meets or exceeds MBC standards.
- A highly visible handle that can withstand tough environments (hot + cold), does not get slippery when wet and that can be handled with big bulky gloves.
> this would probably be G-10 or FRN in an ergonomic handle that is larger than the blade (like the Gunting). It probably would have be orange or yellow.
- A way of opening the blade while wearing big bulky gloves
> this would seem to dictate a Kinetic Opening or large hole or perhaps both.
- A way of closing the blade while wearing big bulky gloves.
> I haven't tried it but I think this would be difficult with the current compression lock. Perhaps the solution is not to close the knife while in gear and have a sheath that accepts the knife in the open position.
- A way of carrying the knife both in and out of gear.
> the standard clip would work good while out of gear but maybe a sheath would be best when wearing the gear. This sheath would have to be able to withstand extreme temperatures because it would probably be permanently fixed to the gear.
- A way of breaking glass with the knife.
> This would probably have to be a specially designed but or blade but maybe the Kinetic Opening hump could be used for this.
- A blade capable of withstanding regular exposure to wet, cold and hot. It sounds like it would used for some prying, standard utility and some specialized cutting. (Clothes and seatbelts).
> The blade shape might have some kind of blunt strong tip
> In terms of Steels 440v is probably too brittle for prying. Vg-10 would probably be the best or maybe this would the right model for Spyderco to try 420v.
- As affordable as possible (very difficult with my preference for the more expensive steels.)
I can't help but notice that with an additional requirement of non corrosive materials this design would also work as a folding dive/rescue knife. > highly visible, strong, designed to be used with gloves and capable of some prying.
Oh well, that is just my uniformed opinion on it. Maybe you can tell that I am very interested in this knife concept.
-Glenn
Hi Glenn,
I should clarify that I was thinking of the Vesuvius as a type, since there are only three compression lock knives, each of different basic construction. The Vsuvius itself is of course a small gentleman's folder, but imagine the same construction type as the Vesuvius but on the scale of the Gunting. This is as much about total strength of the handle (lock + scales) as lock strength.
I was thinking that this would make a great general purpose emergency folder, but you are right: it would also excel as a diver's clipit too. Great insight!
I should clarify that I was thinking of the Vesuvius as a type, since there are only three compression lock knives, each of different basic construction. The Vsuvius itself is of course a small gentleman's folder, but imagine the same construction type as the Vesuvius but on the scale of the Gunting. This is as much about total strength of the handle (lock + scales) as lock strength.
I was thinking that this would make a great general purpose emergency folder, but you are right: it would also excel as a diver's clipit too. Great insight!
The unspeakable horror:
Colt has released a "Fire Fighter" folder that is pretty awful: Standard "tactical" folder with linerlock, red anodized aluminum scales, and an absurd black geo-tanto blade. The most hideous aspect are the pseudo serrations, which I cannot even describe. Woe for the firefighters of America!
Colt has released a "Fire Fighter" folder that is pretty awful: Standard "tactical" folder with linerlock, red anodized aluminum scales, and an absurd black geo-tanto blade. The most hideous aspect are the pseudo serrations, which I cannot even describe. Woe for the firefighters of America!