MILITARY KNIFE IMPROVEMENTS
When I posted my message I did not mean for it to be taken to mean I don't like improvements. I do. Just worthwhile improvements. I believe some of these things are dreamed up by the manufacturers to make more money off the customers they already have. Many people will have a perfectly good knife [lets say model 1] have used it for a length of time and have had no problems with it. Bingo the factory says "we have made some improvements on the model 1 to help it be more safe, sturdier, eye appealing, smoother, more user friendly." That guy will say to himself: My heavens I must get the new model 1 because it will be safer, sturdier, smoother, more user friendly. How in the world did I make it with this old model 1 that is such a slob? Keep in mind the old model 1 performed outstandingly. The factories know this. They probaly can tell you close to what percent of the owners of the old model will have to have the new model. Alot of us have done this very thing if we will admit it only to find the improvements to be of very very little help if any at all. Think about it. I'm still going to get the chinooks but my butt puckers at the thought of buying them and 2 months, 6 months or so from now the new and improved ones come out and I am then left with knives that should have been new and improved before they left the back door of the factory. As good as Spyderco's are especially the Military and Chinook's it would have to be one heck of an improvement to make them any better. Right Sal?
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ftkinney
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i didn't think i was becoming negative just the varios opptions of changing and not changing a product. meplat has a point, i don't want to have to put out cash every six monthes for a "better" blade; while spyderco looks at like a product/process is "better" why not implemt it even if it is small change? sorry if i came acrost nasty. as a designer who workes with engineers and techicans every day about this "better mouse trap" i find it quite intresting.
FTK
FTK
Spyderco may not do the things I have talked about but we must be ever vigilant concerning the fact that Spyderco being run and owned by a non perfect human [as we all are] could possible fall into this situation. I love Spyderco. I have said I own 3 Military knives, 2 Nativies, an Endura, A Delica and a Dragonfly. Now I am going to buy 2 Chinooks. Does that look like I am down on Spyderco? This will be my last post on the subject because I really didn't mean to offend anyone especially Sal who is probaly a very fine man. But there have been many fine men and women that have fallen in the ditch. Whenever someone falls off the the lofty shelf they are sitting on we should help replace them to that shelf. Better yet we should help to keep them from falling in the first place. Reality should always prevail whenever we are looking at anything; even knives. BTW what improvements does a Chinook need? Anyone want to share that with me. The Military?
MePlat,
I won't belabor the point either, I've said all I wanted to. Well, almost...
It's clear to me that you admire and respect the Spyderco products you own and aspire to own. No argument there.
Vigilance is good. I understand your point of view, I just don't share your suspicion, as I've been convinced of the integrity of this company, and in my business experience once this is established, it is not something that is compromised easily...usually not without a change in management of that company.
Cheers, Jeff/1911.
I won't belabor the point either, I've said all I wanted to. Well, almost...
It's clear to me that you admire and respect the Spyderco products you own and aspire to own. No argument there.
Vigilance is good. I understand your point of view, I just don't share your suspicion, as I've been convinced of the integrity of this company, and in my business experience once this is established, it is not something that is compromised easily...usually not without a change in management of that company.
Cheers, Jeff/1911.
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John Frederick
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- Location: Pearl River, La. USA
The Chinook needs a reversable clip (as well as many other knives out there). I REALLY want a Chinook but since Sal hinted that they are looking at upgrading to a reverse clip option I will wait and see. If I bought one now and in 6 months they upgraded the clip it would eat me alive. I can't afford to just go out and buy a second one.
Hi MePlat. No offense taken. This is a forum for sharing knowledge, ideas and experiences. You made a valid point.
Thank you Jeff for your comment, perhaps Spyderco is and tries to be different from "most" manufaturers. My wife Gail says; "we try to do the right things for the right reasons".
MePlat, I personally go through the same drill when I buy a new car or truck. I guess one must decide if the "improvements" are worth purchase of the next model, or wait for the ????
sal
Thank you Jeff for your comment, perhaps Spyderco is and tries to be different from "most" manufaturers. My wife Gail says; "we try to do the right things for the right reasons".
MePlat, I personally go through the same drill when I buy a new car or truck. I guess one must decide if the "improvements" are worth purchase of the next model, or wait for the ????
sal
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Farmer Brown
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Resurrection
I really needed to bring this thread back to life, with the question:
Has anyone been keeping track of the improvements in the Military line?
I got to take a look at some circa 1997 examples of the Military and Police today. The Military has a metal liner on one side (only, as opposed to the two partial liners we see today), while the Police has no liners at all. Both are in G10.
Spydiewiki doesn't seem to cover it.
Has anyone been keeping track of the improvements in the Military line?
I got to take a look at some circa 1997 examples of the Military and Police today. The Military has a metal liner on one side (only, as opposed to the two partial liners we see today), while the Police has no liners at all. Both are in G10.
Spydiewiki doesn't seem to cover it.
I spent way too much time searching all the fora where Sal and Taz post and then also spoke to some excellent people at W&R. All I can tell you is that there have been a lot of changes in the past and there are some more coming very soon. Even little details like whether the pivot bolt is Torx or hex have changed several times during production. Nailing down all the changes might be nearly impossible...
If I may humbly step in, I'd offer my opinion that evolution is a very positive thing, as long as a manufacturer doesn't rush out newer versions just for the novelty effect. If a product is good, and can be made better, one must just make sure any upgrades are solid, tested and justifiable. But the company does have the duty of improving what can be improved, and that doesn't diminish in any way the earlier versions.
Once again, my perception is that Spyderco is one of those companies, with a deep sense of responsibility towards the customer, by supporting issued models, steadily refining the current ones, and striving to, at the same time, expand their offer with different products, each tailored for a certain niche or need. That, the sheer quality of their products, and the fact that they work so well for me made me turn my little "knife collection" into a "Spyderco collection".
Once again, my perception is that Spyderco is one of those companies, with a deep sense of responsibility towards the customer, by supporting issued models, steadily refining the current ones, and striving to, at the same time, expand their offer with different products, each tailored for a certain niche or need. That, the sheer quality of their products, and the fact that they work so well for me made me turn my little "knife collection" into a "Spyderco collection".
:spyder: 7 Millies, 4 Paras, 2 Calys, 2 Enduras, 1 Chinook, 1 Manix, 1 Delica, 1 UKPK, 1 Tasman, 1 D'fly
I suspect that most of the misunderstandings stem from folks never having worked in a manufacturing environment. Virtually all companies are improving and changing their products on an ongoing basis. Sometimes it's voluntary, sometimes a supplier problem forces the issue. Improvements address manufacturability, new materials, new processes, reliability as measured by QA or warranty, and even improvements in usability or safety.
No design or process will ever be so perfect that it can't be improved upon. It's the nature of the beast. You should only ever buy a knife that fits your needs. Period. If you must have the latest and greatest and are unwilling to buy a new one every year, you should just wait until the approximate end of time to buy your knife. I suppose getting it for your last birthday would be ok, but that's so hard to predict ...
Many manufacturers hide changes to their products. Spyderco gets top marks for sharing this information with us. It's above and beyond what most companies are willing to do and I appreciate it. I can decide for myself whether the changes are improvements for my use, and plan accordingly. Thanks Sal. You guys are a class act.
Gordon
No design or process will ever be so perfect that it can't be improved upon. It's the nature of the beast. You should only ever buy a knife that fits your needs. Period. If you must have the latest and greatest and are unwilling to buy a new one every year, you should just wait until the approximate end of time to buy your knife. I suppose getting it for your last birthday would be ok, but that's so hard to predict ...
Many manufacturers hide changes to their products. Spyderco gets top marks for sharing this information with us. It's above and beyond what most companies are willing to do and I appreciate it. I can decide for myself whether the changes are improvements for my use, and plan accordingly. Thanks Sal. You guys are a class act.
Gordon
interesting thread
this thread makes for a very interesting read.
there are certainly companies that build the notion of "obsolescence" into their product releases (sometimes referred to as "planned obsolescence), for the sake of driving sales, and industry. i think this happens most often in the world of electronics... hardware/software... an industry where devices are sophisticated enough that most consumers are not going to be in a position to examine, question, or scrutinize the workings of their product. i believe this is also the case, to an extent, with automobiles.
much of the need to "upgrade" is artificially created through marketing, advertising, and again, in the case of electronics, compatibility issues, and issues with proprietary technologies (which are often forced upon the consumer by programmers/manufacturers).
from a purely objective/cynical standpoint, the concept of creating artificial need and pushing up sales through planned obsolescence... or even manipulation through marketing... generates more business, more revenue, perhaps more jobs. you have a large world of "low-lifespan" products requiring constant regeneration, which increases volume of work, and sales. depending on how you look at things, this could be good for the economy, and employment climate.
spyderco, however, takes a very markedly different approach. they create products designed to last a lifetime. many of their products, such as the SS police and dragonfly, have remained relatively unchanged since their release, many years ago. in the case of the police -- and dragonfly -- we see original designs produced for sale in parallel with "improved" designs (police 3, G10 dragonfly). there is not a sense that the improved or advanced designs are "essential upgrades"; in fact, by producing designs at two stages of the evolutionary process simultaneously, spyderco seems to be broadcasting -- loud and clear -- that both designs have their respective advantages.
spyderco creates products that last and continue offering performance for a LONG time. i've never had a spyderco knife get tired and just "fall apart." the spydercos that i've "replaced" have never been replaced out of "need" -- either i'm lured by some new feature (such as slightly improved steel), tired of the little scratches on mine, or am just wanting something different. i have to -- literally -- make up excuses to justify buying more spydies for my EDC, as none of my EDC knives have ever "needed" to be replaced.
quite ironically, the notion of making the best and most durable product possible creates -- on the surface level -- less work, and less sales. more care and work may go into creating these long-lasting products, but the need to make them all over again, to replace obsolete or worn-out products, is no longer there. the way i see it, this is a business "best practice," a more morally/ethically appropriate approach to doing business, and a more sustainable approach to manufacturing and product design.
our current culture of buying "cheap" things only to spend more money replacing them over and over again has had a relatively short lifespan... since the 1970s or so. i think planned obsolescence has been pushed to it's limits... to the point where people are frustrated, and see the truth enough to be willing to spend more on better products that last longer. i believe the trend will continue in this direction. and that in the long run, businesses with an approach like spyderco's will have a far longer lifespan. not to mention, less trouble sleeping at night. :D
it's interesting... spyderco asked me about a year ago why sales in alaska may have decreased... which is paradoxical considering that the population, and the number of jobs, has continued growing. one of the chief factors explaining this phenomena, i believe, is that alaskans believe in using things as long as possible, and don't care how they look... as long as they function. you see -- literally -- millionaires walking around in beat-up, stained Carhartts. spyderco's products last a LONG time, and are only in need of replacement after inappropriate amounts of abuse, or losing a knife. most of the alaskans i know who have spydies have had them for years, and say things like "it's scratched up, but it's still a great knife. so i keep carrying it." i think spyderco's raw sales volumes are suffering, because their products are so durable and dependable.
there are certainly companies that build the notion of "obsolescence" into their product releases (sometimes referred to as "planned obsolescence), for the sake of driving sales, and industry. i think this happens most often in the world of electronics... hardware/software... an industry where devices are sophisticated enough that most consumers are not going to be in a position to examine, question, or scrutinize the workings of their product. i believe this is also the case, to an extent, with automobiles.
much of the need to "upgrade" is artificially created through marketing, advertising, and again, in the case of electronics, compatibility issues, and issues with proprietary technologies (which are often forced upon the consumer by programmers/manufacturers).
from a purely objective/cynical standpoint, the concept of creating artificial need and pushing up sales through planned obsolescence... or even manipulation through marketing... generates more business, more revenue, perhaps more jobs. you have a large world of "low-lifespan" products requiring constant regeneration, which increases volume of work, and sales. depending on how you look at things, this could be good for the economy, and employment climate.
spyderco, however, takes a very markedly different approach. they create products designed to last a lifetime. many of their products, such as the SS police and dragonfly, have remained relatively unchanged since their release, many years ago. in the case of the police -- and dragonfly -- we see original designs produced for sale in parallel with "improved" designs (police 3, G10 dragonfly). there is not a sense that the improved or advanced designs are "essential upgrades"; in fact, by producing designs at two stages of the evolutionary process simultaneously, spyderco seems to be broadcasting -- loud and clear -- that both designs have their respective advantages.
spyderco creates products that last and continue offering performance for a LONG time. i've never had a spyderco knife get tired and just "fall apart." the spydercos that i've "replaced" have never been replaced out of "need" -- either i'm lured by some new feature (such as slightly improved steel), tired of the little scratches on mine, or am just wanting something different. i have to -- literally -- make up excuses to justify buying more spydies for my EDC, as none of my EDC knives have ever "needed" to be replaced.
quite ironically, the notion of making the best and most durable product possible creates -- on the surface level -- less work, and less sales. more care and work may go into creating these long-lasting products, but the need to make them all over again, to replace obsolete or worn-out products, is no longer there. the way i see it, this is a business "best practice," a more morally/ethically appropriate approach to doing business, and a more sustainable approach to manufacturing and product design.
our current culture of buying "cheap" things only to spend more money replacing them over and over again has had a relatively short lifespan... since the 1970s or so. i think planned obsolescence has been pushed to it's limits... to the point where people are frustrated, and see the truth enough to be willing to spend more on better products that last longer. i believe the trend will continue in this direction. and that in the long run, businesses with an approach like spyderco's will have a far longer lifespan. not to mention, less trouble sleeping at night. :D
it's interesting... spyderco asked me about a year ago why sales in alaska may have decreased... which is paradoxical considering that the population, and the number of jobs, has continued growing. one of the chief factors explaining this phenomena, i believe, is that alaskans believe in using things as long as possible, and don't care how they look... as long as they function. you see -- literally -- millionaires walking around in beat-up, stained Carhartts. spyderco's products last a LONG time, and are only in need of replacement after inappropriate amounts of abuse, or losing a knife. most of the alaskans i know who have spydies have had them for years, and say things like "it's scratched up, but it's still a great knife. so i keep carrying it." i think spyderco's raw sales volumes are suffering, because their products are so durable and dependable.
:spyder: :spyder: :spyder:
Well, I've got to comment here. I design electronic test equipment for manufacturing. I support manufacturing for the life of the product. Electronics is actually driven by the insane speed with which improvements in components are made. Roughly speaking, electronic components improve by a factor of 2 every 18 months. Product life cycles are extremely short as a result. Rather than spending their time planning obsolescence, electronics companies are frantically trying to keep up with technology. Obsolescence is happening even while you design, and if you don't hit a narrow market window, you are FUBARed. If knife technology moved as quickly, Spyderco would have obsoleted the lightsaber years ago.clovisc wrote:there are certainly companies that build the notion of "obsolescence" into their product releases (sometimes referred to as "planned obsolescence), for the sake of driving sales, and industry. i think this happens most often in the world of electronics... hardware/software... an industry where devices are sophisticated enough that most consumers are not going to be in a position to examine, question, or scrutinize the workings of their product. i believe this is also the case, to an extent, with automobiles
Cars are driven more by style and advertising, but there are big variations between companies. Tooling for a new car costs stupid amounts of money. That money must be earned back by charging more. Some companies follow this model. For much of history, this was the path that US automakers followed. A new model every three years, rain or shine. Hot-selling models with years of life left in them were obsoleted. The Ford Mustang is a perfect example.
For a counter example, look at the Subaru Legacy Outback. My wife and I own a 1996 Outback. The brand-new Outbacks are little changed. As a result, Subaru has amortized their tooling across huge numbers of units and can sell their cars at a much lower price for a given performance level. You can buy an Outback today for the same number of dollars as you could in 1996. It's a much improved product in many ways, too. At the same time, the US dollar is worth maybe half of what it was in 1996. That means that the real price of that car has fallen by half. What you don't get is the latest in stylish transportation, but car buyers get to choose. It's a different market niche. You want the Delica/Endura or the latest NASA sprint run?
Gordon
I hope my post didn't create any impression that changes in the Military are a bad thing, or that because someone can't create a fixed timeline and pigeonhole every knife made into a specific variant is a bad thing - nothing like that was meant. On the contrary, the Military is a signature product for Spyderco and continual improvement is a very positive thing, IMO. There are apparently a new series of improvements coming, and I look forward to them.
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Farmer Brown
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Speaking of Millie improvements, I believe it's about time the acquiles heel of the model is re-engineered:
Although not everyone uses it, everybody will agree it's at least nice to have a lanyard hole. The need to provide a strong point between the scales at the butt of the knife is also unquestionable. The current implementation, however, is lacking, for the flared metal tube is fragile to disassemblies (you know it, I know it, we all do it) and to drops on hard surfaces. If a complete redesign is not possible, at least chanfing the G10 a bit more around the hole and providing a screw and post that could be inserted over there, and removed when necessary, might be an adequate, achievable and acceptable solution to the problem.
Some Spydie users have improvised such a solution using "Chicago screws", but a proper screw and post, and the chanfing on the outside of the G10 would allow the screw to sit flush with the scales, keeping everything tight and not shifting the knife's balance too much.
Just a thought.
Although not everyone uses it, everybody will agree it's at least nice to have a lanyard hole. The need to provide a strong point between the scales at the butt of the knife is also unquestionable. The current implementation, however, is lacking, for the flared metal tube is fragile to disassemblies (you know it, I know it, we all do it) and to drops on hard surfaces. If a complete redesign is not possible, at least chanfing the G10 a bit more around the hole and providing a screw and post that could be inserted over there, and removed when necessary, might be an adequate, achievable and acceptable solution to the problem.
Some Spydie users have improvised such a solution using "Chicago screws", but a proper screw and post, and the chanfing on the outside of the G10 would allow the screw to sit flush with the scales, keeping everything tight and not shifting the knife's balance too much.
Just a thought.
:spyder: 7 Millies, 4 Paras, 2 Calys, 2 Enduras, 1 Chinook, 1 Manix, 1 Delica, 1 UKPK, 1 Tasman, 1 D'fly
Were getting close with the M4 SC36.
Improvements will never stop. "I hope"
Tip up, deep pocket carry would get us closer though...... :D
Agree +1 on the slip fit lanyard tube..... That one should be looked at as well.
But then we would have the perfect knife!
What would we have left to talk about?
Improvements will never stop. "I hope"
Tip up, deep pocket carry would get us closer though...... :D
Agree +1 on the slip fit lanyard tube..... That one should be looked at as well.
But then we would have the perfect knife!
What would we have left to talk about?
:spyder: :eek: :spyder: :eek: :spyder: :eek: :spyder:
More S90v & CF please.......
More S90v & CF please.......