To MBC forumites ;
When faced on the street with a potential challenge for
a "knife fight" there is an alternative
to using what the law calls "justifiable lethal force" ; rather than
whip out your Gunting, Ayoob, Matriarch,
Endura, or other Spydie you might want
to use pepper spray ( it works ! ). Massad
Ayoob might even concure with me here,
as, unless you are backed into a corner
with no means of escape, and nothing but your knife you don't stand much of
a chance in court ( or in the eyes of the
police ). You can also save yourself some "battle scarring" inherent in knife
fights ( as any good experienced knife fighter will attest ) by the use of a $10.00
unit of good quality pepper spray.
It ( pepper spray ) also works against
assailant(s) armed with guns where your
knife wouldn't stand much of a chance.
Something to think about.
A.E.T.
A useful alternative to MBC
I'm sorry Mr Treat but I disagree with you, there is NO alternative to MBC especially as you describe...actually I feel you are sadly mistaken and ill informed... Pepper spray is notoriously ineffective and there are many mitigating factors..
1) accessiblity is paramount..getting to it can be nearly impossible
2) wind effects the spray pattern
3) type of pepper spray effects reults
4) pepper spray is writtten in many laws as a WEAPON and is not to be used..it is specificaly named in many statutes..its unenforced but that doesn't matter once in court..it sure will be a suprise to many who carry it..its illegal here in Florida...Peter and I just looked it up..It is specifically named.
5) many people are uneffected by pepper spray: **** we spray people all the time to see the result.. I'm effectd less each time BUt it works on me..It doesn't work at all on several of my students..hmmm Andy actually likes it!
6) potential to get sprayed by the assailant by ones own pepper spray..yes it happens to officers.
Because of this many LEO's are changing the pepper spray over to an edged tool back up..It better serves the purpose..
I was just teaching several depts. that are getting those little cans OFF their bat-man utility belts...
Pepper spray actually shows intent..I mean what are you going to do with it but try to harm soneone? but a good ole SPYDERCO shows common sense.. One can open letters, cut paper, cut food, open packages, cut rope or cords, open coverings,whittle, pick ones teeth..
whatever..
Want to try any of that with the can of pepper spray???
And learning MBC is not using "justifiable lethal force"..Guess you should take one of Mike Janich's classes and see "Less than Lethal" and "non lethal responses"...yes..all using a knife either open or closed..
one needn't use lethal force...thats for those that DON'T take an MBC class...In MBC Mike and I show lots of non lethal & less than Lethal responses....
As we train we do under duress...
and you DO stand a chance in court if you use a knife..restraint, circumstances and mitigating factors do matter..and police are in no way supposed to figure out what happened..ie who is the good guy or bad guy...They are there to arrest you..You sort it out in court..BUT good behaviour, good manners and a non beligerant attitude go a long way with the arresting officers..thats where one needs to "look good"
We at MBC teach all that..
MBC is not to make someone have a "knife Fight" as you put it..nor is it to encourage knife fighting as a defense to an unpleasant situation..nor do we train knife fighters...
It is a responsible way to use & save ones life if needed...
Again..you might want to re-think your idea that Pepper Spray is any type of safe alternative to MBC..The ONLY alternative to MBC is not knowing and the lack of ability to respond properly in a stressful situation...
Edited by - BRAM on 6/12/2001 4:44:55 PM
1) accessiblity is paramount..getting to it can be nearly impossible
2) wind effects the spray pattern
3) type of pepper spray effects reults
4) pepper spray is writtten in many laws as a WEAPON and is not to be used..it is specificaly named in many statutes..its unenforced but that doesn't matter once in court..it sure will be a suprise to many who carry it..its illegal here in Florida...Peter and I just looked it up..It is specifically named.
5) many people are uneffected by pepper spray: **** we spray people all the time to see the result.. I'm effectd less each time BUt it works on me..It doesn't work at all on several of my students..hmmm Andy actually likes it!
6) potential to get sprayed by the assailant by ones own pepper spray..yes it happens to officers.
Because of this many LEO's are changing the pepper spray over to an edged tool back up..It better serves the purpose..
I was just teaching several depts. that are getting those little cans OFF their bat-man utility belts...
Pepper spray actually shows intent..I mean what are you going to do with it but try to harm soneone? but a good ole SPYDERCO shows common sense.. One can open letters, cut paper, cut food, open packages, cut rope or cords, open coverings,whittle, pick ones teeth..
whatever..
Want to try any of that with the can of pepper spray???
And learning MBC is not using "justifiable lethal force"..Guess you should take one of Mike Janich's classes and see "Less than Lethal" and "non lethal responses"...yes..all using a knife either open or closed..
one needn't use lethal force...thats for those that DON'T take an MBC class...In MBC Mike and I show lots of non lethal & less than Lethal responses....
As we train we do under duress...
and you DO stand a chance in court if you use a knife..restraint, circumstances and mitigating factors do matter..and police are in no way supposed to figure out what happened..ie who is the good guy or bad guy...They are there to arrest you..You sort it out in court..BUT good behaviour, good manners and a non beligerant attitude go a long way with the arresting officers..thats where one needs to "look good"
We at MBC teach all that..
MBC is not to make someone have a "knife Fight" as you put it..nor is it to encourage knife fighting as a defense to an unpleasant situation..nor do we train knife fighters...
It is a responsible way to use & save ones life if needed...
Again..you might want to re-think your idea that Pepper Spray is any type of safe alternative to MBC..The ONLY alternative to MBC is not knowing and the lack of ability to respond properly in a stressful situation...
Edited by - BRAM on 6/12/2001 4:44:55 PM
Allen,
Are you proposing that pepper spray will prevent a person from being hit when facing a firearm or detemined attacker? If so, your tactical doctine may be yours alone.
I've been able to hit my training partner with a soft-air pellet gun after she sprayed me with Fox pepper spray. The effort was to show her that untested false reliance in a single self-defense tool will bear woeful results.
It was better for me, as her concerned friend to take the pain of the test, than for her to be harmed because someone told her that pepper spray could stop a determine armed attacker.
-Seth
Are you proposing that pepper spray will prevent a person from being hit when facing a firearm or detemined attacker? If so, your tactical doctine may be yours alone.
I've been able to hit my training partner with a soft-air pellet gun after she sprayed me with Fox pepper spray. The effort was to show her that untested false reliance in a single self-defense tool will bear woeful results.
It was better for me, as her concerned friend to take the pain of the test, than for her to be harmed because someone told her that pepper spray could stop a determine armed attacker.
-Seth
-
Guntaholic
- Member
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
I have a friend that made a small fortune, from his lack of a reaction to peper spray. It just didn't phase him. Back in College he would make bets with people that they could spray him and he would not even flinch... He won every time. On another note that green face dye, really didn't last that long too...
Mr. Treat:
I have personally sprayed over 30 people with OC spray in combat situations (not in a controlled environment in a classroom).
If you'd like to share your personal experience that has led to your claim, I'd be happy to share my experiences that refute it.
Theory and practice are quite often very different.
Good day.
Ric
Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill anyone you meet
I have personally sprayed over 30 people with OC spray in combat situations (not in a controlled environment in a classroom).
If you'd like to share your personal experience that has led to your claim, I'd be happy to share my experiences that refute it.
Theory and practice are quite often very different.
Good day.
Ric
Be polite and professional, but have a plan to kill anyone you meet
I do not intend to "pile on" here but I think that this is a dangerous idea which needs to be clearly refuted by weight of many voices.
I was an LE DT and firearms instructor during the advent of OC-10. I heard rave revues about it effectiveness. It was hailed as a solution to nearly all use of force problems.
I took the training. When I was sprayed in the face from a range of about 30" I was shocked. I felt nothing but minor discomfort. I thought something was amiss so I asked for another dose. Same result. Granted, many others found it debilitating, but my observations on the street have been similar. Some do, some don't.
Pepper spray has its place but it is not a replacement for good close fighting skills. Also consider the realities of enviornment. Wind, rain, cold, eyewear, headgear and many other things adversely affect OC-10's performance.
I wouldn't bet my life on the margin of error involved in relying on a chemical agent for self-defense. You shouldn't either IMHO. When the threat stands at arms length from you steel is still king.
Greg R. Beeman Si Vis Pacern Parabellum Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
I was an LE DT and firearms instructor during the advent of OC-10. I heard rave revues about it effectiveness. It was hailed as a solution to nearly all use of force problems.
I took the training. When I was sprayed in the face from a range of about 30" I was shocked. I felt nothing but minor discomfort. I thought something was amiss so I asked for another dose. Same result. Granted, many others found it debilitating, but my observations on the street have been similar. Some do, some don't.
Pepper spray has its place but it is not a replacement for good close fighting skills. Also consider the realities of enviornment. Wind, rain, cold, eyewear, headgear and many other things adversely affect OC-10's performance.
I wouldn't bet my life on the margin of error involved in relying on a chemical agent for self-defense. You shouldn't either IMHO. When the threat stands at arms length from you steel is still king.
Greg R. Beeman Si Vis Pacern Parabellum Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
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Scorpius711
- Member
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: South Bend, Indiana USA
Bram, thanks for the reality check on the effectiveness of pepper spray. I stopped carying it as an option a couple of years ago.
Just to underscore your point on accessibility, if attacked from behind or taken to the ground, it's pretty worthless. Not only would it be hard to get too, try to apply it in a clinch situation or on the ground. Compared to a Gunting where you have many more availble target's.
Your better off to have taken some MBC classes (hopefully in the near future for me). Or in my case some Gracie Jiu-Jitsu training and a Harpy (easy access in right front pocket), with a little Serrada Escrima thrown in for a little spice<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Keep up the good work on making us aware of what is usefull and what is not.
Troy
Edited by - Scorpius711 on 6/13/2001 8:27:34 PM
Just to underscore your point on accessibility, if attacked from behind or taken to the ground, it's pretty worthless. Not only would it be hard to get too, try to apply it in a clinch situation or on the ground. Compared to a Gunting where you have many more availble target's.
Your better off to have taken some MBC classes (hopefully in the near future for me). Or in my case some Gracie Jiu-Jitsu training and a Harpy (easy access in right front pocket), with a little Serrada Escrima thrown in for a little spice<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
Keep up the good work on making us aware of what is usefull and what is not.
Troy
Edited by - Scorpius711 on 6/13/2001 8:27:34 PM
-
Michael Janich
- Member
- Posts: 3001
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Longmont, CO USA
- Contact:
Dear Allen:
Since other forumites have already addressed the pepper spray effectiveness issue, I won't beat (or cut) a dead horse. However, I would like to make two important points:
1) Any good pepper spray course will teach back-up tactics in the event that the spray fails to do its job. These tactics usually consist of striking with the can itself or transitioning to a better weapon. Striking with the can makes use of the same angles and skills taught in MBC, hence, MBC training is still relevant. If you transition to another weapon, it may be a knife. Again, MBC training shines.
2) You apparently based your comments on the premise that MBC is limited to a knife vs. knife encounter. That's incorrect. In fact, in my classes, the first thing I establish is that MBC stresses the use of the knife in a wide variety of defensive circumstances. This includes using the knife as an impact weapon without resorting to opening or applying the blade. If you'll review the course curriculum posted elsewhere on this forum, you'll also note that I place a heavy emphasis on integrated skills and the development of empty-hand skills through knife training.
I guess the bottom line is this:
Don't put all your eggs in one basket or they might end up scrambled.
mike j
Since other forumites have already addressed the pepper spray effectiveness issue, I won't beat (or cut) a dead horse. However, I would like to make two important points:
1) Any good pepper spray course will teach back-up tactics in the event that the spray fails to do its job. These tactics usually consist of striking with the can itself or transitioning to a better weapon. Striking with the can makes use of the same angles and skills taught in MBC, hence, MBC training is still relevant. If you transition to another weapon, it may be a knife. Again, MBC training shines.
2) You apparently based your comments on the premise that MBC is limited to a knife vs. knife encounter. That's incorrect. In fact, in my classes, the first thing I establish is that MBC stresses the use of the knife in a wide variety of defensive circumstances. This includes using the knife as an impact weapon without resorting to opening or applying the blade. If you'll review the course curriculum posted elsewhere on this forum, you'll also note that I place a heavy emphasis on integrated skills and the development of empty-hand skills through knife training.
I guess the bottom line is this:
Don't put all your eggs in one basket or they might end up scrambled.
mike j
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Allen E. Treat
Dear forumites ;
Sorry if I "rocked the boat" with my commentary on this one ; My
premise was that you could try the
pepper spray first, then, failing that,
employ your MBC skills. I must make
one point clear as regards to pepper
spray being a weapon ; after reviewing
much of the Nations laws ( I work for an
attorney ) pepper spray is indeed a weapon, but so are most knives ( the
laws regarding blade length vary State
to State but knives are NOT exempt.
Second, your case in Court may weigh in
your favor if you tried using a "non
lethal" alternative to the blade. Perhaps
it was effective, perhaps not. But at
least you tried to avoid employing
"justifiable lethal force". Either way
( pepper spray OR knife ) you're going to
wind up in Court ( have your attorney's fees ready ). Last, pepper spray may be
unreliable, or, questionable in the effectiveness department ; so why do the
cops carry it in addition to their
sidearms ( guns ) ? Certainly not for looks I would suppose. Also consider, if
you beat the case in criminal Court,
there still might be a civil case for
damage(s) received from the conflict by
your opponent for "maiming" him / her with
your trusty Spydie. Remember what Shakespeare said : " First, let's kill all
the lawyers !".
I am not discounting what you all said
fellow forumites ( including Mr. Janich )but
we must keep in mind the consequences
of our action(s) is all I'm trying to
say. Keep up the good work and happy
collecting ( I'm a collector / user of
fine Spydies ).
Sincerely,
Allen E. Treat
Sorry if I "rocked the boat" with my commentary on this one ; My
premise was that you could try the
pepper spray first, then, failing that,
employ your MBC skills. I must make
one point clear as regards to pepper
spray being a weapon ; after reviewing
much of the Nations laws ( I work for an
attorney ) pepper spray is indeed a weapon, but so are most knives ( the
laws regarding blade length vary State
to State but knives are NOT exempt.
Second, your case in Court may weigh in
your favor if you tried using a "non
lethal" alternative to the blade. Perhaps
it was effective, perhaps not. But at
least you tried to avoid employing
"justifiable lethal force". Either way
( pepper spray OR knife ) you're going to
wind up in Court ( have your attorney's fees ready ). Last, pepper spray may be
unreliable, or, questionable in the effectiveness department ; so why do the
cops carry it in addition to their
sidearms ( guns ) ? Certainly not for looks I would suppose. Also consider, if
you beat the case in criminal Court,
there still might be a civil case for
damage(s) received from the conflict by
your opponent for "maiming" him / her with
your trusty Spydie. Remember what Shakespeare said : " First, let's kill all
the lawyers !".
I am not discounting what you all said
fellow forumites ( including Mr. Janich )but
we must keep in mind the consequences
of our action(s) is all I'm trying to
say. Keep up the good work and happy
collecting ( I'm a collector / user of
fine Spydies ).
Sincerely,
Allen E. Treat
I just want to add that regardless of how many times pepper spray doesn't work it IS still another level of the use of force continum and a viable one at that. I have used it effectively several times. the key thing to remember as you all were quick to point out is that some times it won't work. and there's where the rest of your training should come in. OC at best is a deterrent. In my work as security I've never used it for self defence I always used it to break up fights. Usually at least one of the two or more fighting will react to the spray.
as self defence on the street? **** no I wouldn't carry it. but as part of the use of force continum at my job. Yes Give me all the non leathal options I can get.
as self defence on the street? **** no I wouldn't carry it. but as part of the use of force continum at my job. Yes Give me all the non leathal options I can get.
I respectfully disagree with you Allen E. Treat.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>/.../try the pepper spray first, then, failing that, employ your MBC skills. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
<b>Then </b> means lost time. Time the BG can use to get closer and attack you. The BG can get more mad because you showed aggression towards him. There is an even higher risk of the BG getting more aggressive if he is under influence of some drug(s) or has an emotional disorder. He might even be psychotic.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../your case in Court may weigh in your favor if you tried using a "non lethal" alternative to the blade. Perhaps it was effective, perhaps not. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
You don´t have to open the Gunting to use it effectively. It wasn´t designed for cutting only. As BRAM posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>Guess you should take one of Mike Janich's classes and see "Less than Lethal" and "non lethal responses"...yes..all using a knife either open or closed.. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
If I would have to go lethal then I´m one of those that subscribe to the "rather tried by twelve than carried by six" philosophy/doctrine (even if we in my country don´t have a system where a jury decides if you are guilty or not).
My survival is priority one. Always.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../you're going to wind up in Court ( have your attorney's fees ready ). </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
A very good piece of advice that sometime is mentioned. I´ve got the names and phone numbers to a couple of good lawyers. This is one part in your post that I agree with.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>why do the cops carry it in addition to their sidearms ( guns ) ?. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
Who/What decides what tools a LEO carry?
-A bureaucrat that have limited experience from how much destruction a determined human can do to someone and how much pain he/she can endure.
-A need to be political correct (media).
-Good marketing by the people selling the stuff.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../civil case for damage(s) received from the conflict by your opponent for "maiming" him / her with your trusty Spydie. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
I know that you probably had a different audience in mind here (US citizens), just trying to enlighten some of the audience that are used to multi-million dollar law suits.
In my country it is very hard to get over 10 000$ in damages (which is very rare by the way). The highest I´ve ever seen or come across was 25 000$. So that won´t be a very big problem here. A regular loan at the bank would solve it. I believe my life to be worth that much at least.
These are some of my opinions to your second post. Just trying to show a different point of view.
Be well,
/Colinz
EDIT: UBB code problems
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:51:52 PM
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:55:54 PM
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:59:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>/.../try the pepper spray first, then, failing that, employ your MBC skills. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
<b>Then </b> means lost time. Time the BG can use to get closer and attack you. The BG can get more mad because you showed aggression towards him. There is an even higher risk of the BG getting more aggressive if he is under influence of some drug(s) or has an emotional disorder. He might even be psychotic.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../your case in Court may weigh in your favor if you tried using a "non lethal" alternative to the blade. Perhaps it was effective, perhaps not. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
You don´t have to open the Gunting to use it effectively. It wasn´t designed for cutting only. As BRAM posted:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>Guess you should take one of Mike Janich's classes and see "Less than Lethal" and "non lethal responses"...yes..all using a knife either open or closed.. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
If I would have to go lethal then I´m one of those that subscribe to the "rather tried by twelve than carried by six" philosophy/doctrine (even if we in my country don´t have a system where a jury decides if you are guilty or not).
My survival is priority one. Always.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../you're going to wind up in Court ( have your attorney's fees ready ). </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
A very good piece of advice that sometime is mentioned. I´ve got the names and phone numbers to a couple of good lawyers. This is one part in your post that I agree with.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>why do the cops carry it in addition to their sidearms ( guns ) ?. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
Who/What decides what tools a LEO carry?
-A bureaucrat that have limited experience from how much destruction a determined human can do to someone and how much pain he/she can endure.
-A need to be political correct (media).
-Good marketing by the people selling the stuff.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade><b>/.../civil case for damage(s) received from the conflict by your opponent for "maiming" him / her with your trusty Spydie. </b> <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
I know that you probably had a different audience in mind here (US citizens), just trying to enlighten some of the audience that are used to multi-million dollar law suits.
In my country it is very hard to get over 10 000$ in damages (which is very rare by the way). The highest I´ve ever seen or come across was 25 000$. So that won´t be a very big problem here. A regular loan at the bank would solve it. I believe my life to be worth that much at least.
These are some of my opinions to your second post. Just trying to show a different point of view.
Be well,
/Colinz
EDIT: UBB code problems
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:51:52 PM
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:55:54 PM
Edited by - Colinz on 6/15/2001 2:59:20 PM
Knives CAN be weapons but can also be tools..as in common pocket knives..
Pepper Spray is just that...a weapon...
I know many who only carry the spray on duty because its become departmental policy from politicians, sales people or Equipment suppliers that got the spray included on the typical Batman utility belt..
doesn't mean it works as advertised...
**** I was in a commercial to sell the stuff and as we all played with this new version we all laughed..I mean it WAS a paycheck..
Use the spray AND then USE MBC? I could be in a really bad situation by then..
and since MBC as stated is everything from non lethal all the way to less than lethal..sometimes all the way to lethal
(I personally don't teach the Lethal)
I go MBC...
no spray..
please feel free to use whatever you pesonally feel is correct..
thers no boat rocking at all..You obviously don't understand the range of MBC and its our job to teach and educate what MBC really is....
With out asking or stating how could any of us reply????
Have a great day..This is a good thread and an example of good comunication & sharing!!
Thanks to Allen for posting & asking it!!!!!!
Pepper Spray is just that...a weapon...
I know many who only carry the spray on duty because its become departmental policy from politicians, sales people or Equipment suppliers that got the spray included on the typical Batman utility belt..
doesn't mean it works as advertised...
**** I was in a commercial to sell the stuff and as we all played with this new version we all laughed..I mean it WAS a paycheck..
Use the spray AND then USE MBC? I could be in a really bad situation by then..
and since MBC as stated is everything from non lethal all the way to less than lethal..sometimes all the way to lethal
(I personally don't teach the Lethal)
I go MBC...
no spray..
please feel free to use whatever you pesonally feel is correct..
thers no boat rocking at all..You obviously don't understand the range of MBC and its our job to teach and educate what MBC really is....
With out asking or stating how could any of us reply????
Have a great day..This is a good thread and an example of good comunication & sharing!!
Thanks to Allen for posting & asking it!!!!!!
mr. treat, i also disagree with you. as a former pepper spray instructor, and being on the receiving end several times due to this, i can tell you it does not always work. i have also seen it used several times in the line of duty and everyone reacts differently to it. it has often even made the suspect more violent. while i agree that a knife is a weopon of last resort, i dont believe in carrying something that i have not been trained in. as they say it is better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
-
ChuteTheMall
- Member
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
I suppose OC might be useful against a dog or an obnoxious critter, or an overly aggressive child trying to bust up you and your car with a baseball bat, or a drunken brother-in-law. I keep some in the car.
But you can try this comparison test at home. First spray yourself with some OC, then see how fast you can find the water bottle. Next stab yourself with your knife, and see how fast you can find bandages.
I always have a Spydie handy, everything else is an accessory.
But you can try this comparison test at home. First spray yourself with some OC, then see how fast you can find the water bottle. Next stab yourself with your knife, and see how fast you can find bandages.
I always have a Spydie handy, everything else is an accessory.
