MBC Training Drills

paulks · #1

I have completed one of Michael Janich's MBC classes and train with a partner occasionally to maintain and develop my reflexes. I am looking for suggestions for training drills so that we make the most use of our limited training time. Here is how I've been training so far:

1. Get ready: Empty items from pockets, put on arm guard and eye protection, check that my partner's knife is really a trainer. Discuss training goals. Discuss ethics of defensive knife use. Start very slow and gentle.
2. Review strike angles: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Review grip and comma cut.
3. Largo mano: Arm's length "pass" and "follow" cuts to partner's forearm. Alternate attacking vs. defending. Movement: step then slide. For angle 5 (thrusts) we sometimes use a thin-walled plastic water bottle because it makes a satisfying "crunch" sound if it hits, and it doesn't hurt like a trainer knife can. Attacker tries to make good contact (but for safety, targets shoulder instead of head or neck). Defender tries to make solid contact too.
4. Multiple cuts: Instead of just doing one defensive cut, perform several, including forearm, armpit/bicep/tricep, quadracep.
5. Close quarters: Cut and block. Defender's back against wall or pressed into corner.
6. Attacker uses simulated club instead of knife. (Tubular pipe insulation wrapped with a skin of duct tape.)
7. Empty hand defense against club. Gentle, slow combination strikes. (Step in to meet attacker, trap club, simulate strike with elbow or knee.)
8. 6-count drill (as learned in Janich's class). After drill is going smoothly, vary it occasionally to develop instinctive defensive response.

What training drill routine do you use to stay sharp? :)
-- Paul

DAYWALKER · #2

Aloha paulks!

Do you train with your blades "live"?

I feel this is important because trainer's "slide". I mean, ya got a good training regimen there, but I feel it's important for live blade training, either on stationary or moving targets. One type of device we use on occasion is a dowel with this foam swimming device wrapped around it, secured with duct tape. Sometimes we'll wrap old shirts around it or jeans. Training partner than tries to "stab" or slash at you with the training blade taped to the dowel, while you train on it with your LIVE blade.

Again, trainer's slide, and depending on the material or blade edge style, you CAN get "hung up" on that "attacking dowel wearing a jeans sleeve"! LOL! Apply ground drills also, and stuff like wearing a blind fold, have your partner spin you in circles for a while, then take off blind fold and have another training buddy attack you with that "limb" i mentioned earlier...simulates being hit, and trying to stay focused on the attack at hand...get creative!!! Do scenarios...not rehearsed types where "Okay, you do this, then I'll do that"...sorta thing.

Sorry for rambling, and God bless :cool:
Train LIVE but safe!!!

paulks · #3

Thanks for the suggestions, DayWalker.

I have not tried your ideas yet. During Michael Janich's "level 1" class (http://www.martialbladeconcepts.com/) we covered the basics of "defanging the snake." Mike did a cutting demo on "pork man," which was a pork roast wrapped around a dowel, covered with shrink wrap, then covered with clothing. Students did not handle live blades during the "level 1" class.

At your suggestion, I will work some groundfighting and safe live blade exercises into my practice routine.

Do you have any suggestions for groundfighting? Many fights do end up on the ground, so it makes sense to be prepared. The obvious things I can think of are:
:spyder: Learn how to draw and open a knife from prone, and various tumbled positions. (Need access to multiple knives in case some big fella has pinned your knife side to the floor.)
:spyder: Protect your head from kicks by orienting your feet toward your attacker(s) if they are standing

One of my concerns about using a knife while grappling with someone on the ground is that we're now in very close quarters and the potential for being cut by my own blade is high.

So far, my training has been restricted to what I learned in Mike's Level 1 class and what he teaches in his Fighting Folders video. My preference is to stay simple, because I know that when I'm adrenalized, I don't think as clearly, I usually just react based on prior training.

-- Paul

Joe Talmadge · #4

paulks wrote:I have completed one of Michael Janich's MBC classes and train with a partner occasionally to maintain and develop my reflexes.

For developing reflexes, I wouldn't do any of the exercises you're doing. Those exercises are good for fundamentals and form, but not reflexes. For reflexes, you're going to need to go to drills that are a bit more combative, IMO. There are zillions of great drills, but here are a couple of very basic ones. These drills are done with padded trainers, since one or the other partner can get hit hard. You can get padded trainers like Sof-stix, or make your own with a wooden dowel, some pipe foam, and duct tape (that's what I do).

Basic drill #1: Partners start at a reasonable distance. NO FOOTWORK is allowed in this drill, both partners must keep their feet stationary. "Defender" holds out his hand. "Attacker", from whatever fighting position he's chosen (but stationary), strikes at the defender's hand. The attacker is trying to hit the defender's hand, as hard as he can. For that, he'll need to do a fast, crisp, non-telegraphed strike. Defender is trying to avoid getting hit; for that, he'll need to look for little telegraphed clues that the strike is coming, and have fast reflexes when he sees it. So, this drill looks very simple from teh outside: two guys are stationary, one explosively launches a strike at the other's open hand, and the other guy tries to pull his hand away. No footwork or faking allowed before the strike.

Basic drill #2: This time, both partners have a padded training knife. Both take a stance at the right distance. Again, no footwork, no fakes on the part of the attacker. This time the defender is in a fighting stance, and the attacker is allowed to hit either of the defender's hand. Again, attacker tries to do a quick strike. If he hits either of the defender's hands, they re-set. However, if the attacker misses with the strike (defender gets the targets out of the way), the defender is allowed to do one quick counterstrike anywhere on the attacker's body (or head, if you're wearing head protection). This drill teaches the same thing as the previous drill, except that when the attacker misses, he learns to pull himself back quickly. Defender learns to immediately counterstrike after he gets attacked, and he very quickly burns this into muscle memory -- remove the target then explode into counter-offense.

Both drills can be tuned to some extent for differences in the skill of the respective partners. If I'm the attacker and I'm much better than the defender so that I keep hitting him easily, I increase the distance between us so the defender has more time to react. If the defender is much better than me, as attacker I'll start from a closer distance, but I suggest you never get unrealistically close for this drill, lest you develop unrealstic distancing judgements.

Note that these drills are fantastic for sharpening up reflexes. They're not the most realistic in the world, as I described them: they are more focused on knife sparring than realistic knifework -- but the reflexes you develop in these types of drills are just as applicable in realistic knifework as they are in a knife duel.

I have many many other drills that we use in FFS, many variations and ways to include fakes, footwork, etc. But you get the general idea: to develop reflexes, the other guy must be trying as hard as he can to hit you, with power, full speed and non-telegraphed, and not with a predetermined pattern. Slower drills, pattern type drills (even incredibly fast flow drills), etc., don't develop reflexes, they develop basic form and fundamentals. In my opinion.

Joe

DAYWALKER · #5

Aloha Joe!
Good stuff man!

Paulks: Nah, the "obvious" things you already know about folders on the ground. Yes, you could be cut on the ground as you are in very close quarters as you said, but once the opportunity allows, or once you make one happen for you...GET OFF THE GROUND!!! You DON'T want to "grapple"...you wanna prevent that and escape before his friends come and use your head like a soccer ball. Good on you though...keep it simple.

Keep us posted, train safe and "keep it real", and God bless!
:cool:

Qship · #6

I rather like the standard escrima drills. They build the stimulus/response chain - see the knife attack, block the arm, cut the arm. The only thing fast enough to save you is a conditioned response, and the only way I know to build a conditioned response is repetition, lots of repetition. Drills pack hundreds of repetitions into a short time. And, repetition knocks the corners off moves, and makes them faster and smoother.

That said, a drill is just one training method, among many.

Qship

thombrogan · #7

Here's the MBC drill I like the best:

If something looks/feels/sounds fishy, leave the area as fast as you can. Sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly, whatever it takes to get out of dodge.

Want to know my solo baston and doble baston drills?

If something looks/feels/sounds fishy, leave the area as fast as you can. Sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly, whatever it takes to get out of dodge.

Espada y daga?

If something looks/feels/sounds fishy, leave the area as fast as you can. Sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly, whatever it takes to get out of dodge.

American/pan-European "Bowie" drill?

If something looks/feels/sounds fishy, leave the area as fast as you can. Sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly, whatever it takes to get out of dodge. :D

paulks · #8

Thom, I have used your "sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly" approach to self defense with great success. I'm glad I wasn't wearing sandals when it happened, because I got chased for over 3 blocks before the muggers gave up on me. The incident showed me that my martial arts training didn't cut the mustard. I didn't feel confident in a street situation, and decided to hot-foot it.

In this age of blood-borne pathogens like Hepatitis and AIDS, I'd prefer a non-violent resolution.

I travel with kids, so it's not always practical to "sprint, drive, leap, bolt, fly." Unfortunately, life throws us curve-balls occasionally, so I'd like to be reasonably prepared.

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions. Any other practise ideas that would help develop our MBC skills?

thombrogan · #9

Paulks,

Try a combination of Tom Patire's tips and Don Pentecost's advice.

Patire suggests that you train with your children and practice having them move behind you while you step directly into the line of vision of the bad person or lead person. This should allow the child or children time to slip off and scream: "Help! My Paulks is being hurt!"

Don Pentecost suggests that you hit the bad person or bad people in the head with whatever's at hand until movement ceases. Setups, combinations, and pulling the first opponent off balance to show your love to the kidneys are recommended strategies. It's like biomechanical cutting directed to the head or whatever's available. Oh yeah, take a tip from Marc and Dianna Gordon MacYoung and take a few courses on judicious use of deadly force because the most benign and most gruesome cut-and-run strategies look like identical twins in the eyes of the law. If you can't afford a JDL course, carry a Benchmade or Taylor Cutlery knife for defensive carry and let the bad rap fall on their shoulders. :p

Also, make sure most of your moves (empty handed or otherwise) are short and sweet and can be executed when overtired, sick, or other impaired against an unwilling partner. Start with some compliance and have them be much more resistant as you improve. Unless you live and breathe defensive training and practice your moves thousands of times a day against a dozen different partners, fancy or multi-part moves won't be your friend.

Mongo · #10

Wow, arm and eye protection? We are just told "take your knife and do "hubud". We have a few drills, some are from Inayan, some are from Sayoc Kali. We use different trainers , mine are made by http://www.plastictrainer.com/.
They are sturdy and cheap.
Why use a 9 inch aluminium training knife if your EDC is a Yojimbo right?
So i train with the ones i have. They just don't like the Civilian trainer :D

That litlle piercing tip keeps getting thrue their defense, and keeps on touching skin.
When i come home , my wife just looks at the black and blue forearms, and the red stripes in my neck area, and says "knife training"?
She can tell by the placement of the blue spots what we did. Hey your eye is swollen (panantukan), red knuckels wrists (Kadena de mano)? Upper leg and side (Sikaran)? Pain in the elbows and bruises , ah Dumog.

:D

All she asks is "doesn't that hurt ?" while she pokes in them

paulks · #11

Daywalker and Joe T,

I incorporated your "live blade cutting" and "reflex building" exercises into the training session I hosted last weekend. Both were valuable. (My reflexes need improving!)

The live cutting drill was a real eye opener. I wrapped a 2" layer of fairly dense rubbery foam around a 5 foot long 3/4" pvc pipe, held it in place with duct tape, then wrapped that with an old pant leg.

Some knives didn't even cut through the cloth! A dull knife just didn't cut it. Surprisingly, some sharp knives from leading manufacturers proved quite dissapointing. The :spyder: Yojimbo did very well. My :spyder: Yojimbo was used by several people for the test and cut "to the bone" many times. Unfortunately, the last 1/16" of the blade tip got bent at a ~15 degree angle (from cutting to the bone and striking the pvc so often). When I tried to bend it back, it snapped off. I'll need to hone the point of my blade a bit to compensate. The silver lining is that the knife has proven how well it cuts deeply.

Thanks, everyone, for your suggestions on this thread. Our 2 hour training session was a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to hosting another one in May after I've taken Mike Janich's April classes.

Bottom line: I'm glad I did some live cutting tests with my MBC knives. Better to find out sooner than later if their design works (or not). :) 

Cheers,
Paul

DAYWALKER · #12

Aloha paulks buddy!!!

:D :D

RIGHT ON MAN!!!

As I stated early on..."live" training is valuable indeed. As you said yourself, " It's better to find out sooner than later if their designs work (or not!)...

Just be safe, keep it simple, and as always, God bless :cool:

Simon G · #13

An old adage of mine, "Train like you'll fight, so you'll fight like you train."

God bless,

Simon

Mr Blonde · #14

I have had great benefit from being active in a couple of the more traditional 'dojo' martial arts, like Jiu Jitsu for example. Training in a martial art like Judo or Jiu Jitsu and Iaido and to a lesser extent Aikido (tends to lack the physical exhaustion you need in training and partners tend to co-operate), will teach you one very important skill. That is how the human body works; how it feels when it wants to attack you, what happens when you push, pull, punch kick etc... In the end, these arts could not give me the challenges I was looking for, i.e. practical street-oriented techniques, weapons skills, and ultimately discovering my own path and methods in the martial arts.

Sure these traditional and now popular arts have something else in mind than preparing you for the streets of today. They want you to carry on a cultural tradition or bring home trophies. But keeping that in mind you can learn the -possibly- most important lesson of self-defense, the function and feel of the human body. Keep in mind that your school includes sparring, multiple attackers and that it generally has a nice training atmosphere.

Keep you techniques from mr. Janich in your 'personal vault' and keep practicing, but when the only access to formal training is the more popular martial arts, give them a try and take from it what you can.

argyll · #15

paulks wrote: Some knives didn't even cut through the cloth! A dull knife just didn't cut it. Surprisingly, some sharp knives from leading manufacturers proved quite dissapointing.

Yep, that's always quite an eye opener. I gained a much greater appreciation of thrusting after I saw how clothes can roll under the edge of even a sharp knife and thwart the cut. (Not trying to reopen the old point vs. edge debate, both of course have their place in the tool box.)

Best regards,

Argyll

paulks · #16

What equipment and technique suggestions do you have for live cutting drills?

:spyder: Earlier, Daywalker suggested a foam pool noodle wrapped around a long dowel.
:spyder: Michael Janich wrapped a pork roast around a dowel, then put ~10 layers of cling wrap over that (to simulate skin), then some old clothing.
:spyder: A friend of mine suggested corregated cardboard.
:spyder: I've used rubbery foam used for insulating 3" drain pipe, wrapped twice around a 3/4" pvc pipe, held in place with duct tape, then covered with clothing. (The 3" pipe insulation is about 1" thick and makes a good arm guard too!)

Other ideas? A layer of clothing was quite educational. Some knives cut the clothing, some didn't.

Also, what are your experiences with serated vs. non-serated vs. partially serated for live cutting drills?

--Paul

DAYWALKER · #17

Aloha paulks!!!

YES...if you can place an old T-shirt or denim on them "limbs". I am glad that you are seeing the effect clothing has on "edges".

SE: My experiences with SE is that it tears...on soft targets, no prob. But on clothed targets, it can "catch and sometimes snag"...still, it does some major damage...withdraw from thrusts: OWCH!!!

CE: My favorite edge configuration. If you catch your target with the SE portion first, the PE part will either cut deeply and glide through the rest of your "technique". Sometimes on clothed targets, the SE portion as mentioned will "tear", then when the PE portion meets the material, it'll do a sliding cut.

PE: Well, you have no doubt seen the effect of a PE on cloth. PE is good, but I have had it slide off mediums such as leather...even denim at times. Something my SE has never done. It may not have cut deeply" but it cut.

Sorry, more details later, or just email me my friend...got some errands to do!
Train safe, train "REAL"...God bless :cool:

Mr Blonde · #18

I have conducted some informal tests with a PE vs SE Delica on rolled up paper covered with denim and T-shirt. The results, both cut equally well but you can feel a slight drag with SE, not nearly enough to make the knife rip from my hand though. Hehehe we got Szabo balls for that! :D
In my training the feeling of a technique and tool is important. I prefer to move quick an light, the Pe in my tests fits the best. But if you're a more agrressive and robust MBC player, the SE could fit your 'style' better. It's what you're comfy with, that's all. It's good to do some ballistic cutting, as mr. Janich puts it. You'd be amazed at the forces and impacts that are directed at your hand.

Wouter

DAYWALKER · #19

Aloha wouter!

I "feel" ya on the impact training! Sometimes I can feel it in my palm for days after the "exercise"!!! :o

God bless, and your observations are right on target! (As always!

)

Michael Cook · #20

Hmmm, my wife and I carry a yojimbo and manix respectively. I'm gonna have to denim wrap some meat and try some violence on it. Now there's a strange sentence...