Here are the specs from Sal:
Blade length - 3.5"
Blade steel - still to be determined, probably VG10.
Blade shape is unusual and quite difficult to describe. Basically a dagger grind with a chunk cut out of the top half, sharpened on edge side only.
Lock is an integral compression lock (first time)
Handle on the proto is Titan, although we'll probably make both steel and Titan handles (cost). Indexing holes in both the handle and clip (new style) for different size hands.
"Cobra hood" over hole for easy deployment (new concept).
14mm opening hole (Military size).
And here is an url for an image (poor) that I've uploaded:
http://www.zing.com/picture/p9789269023 ... g.orig.jpg
Now for the questions:
#1. What do you think of the concept? The only thing you can't see ni the picture is the indexing holes in the clip. These align with the holes drilled in the scale.
#2. The problem with the idea of using steel for the low cost version is a very high projected weight of 6oz to 7oz. So that leaves other options for a scaled knife with nested compression lock. Would you prefer aluminum or G10 with nested lock, or the heavier integral steel idea, and why?
At The Ready.
-
vampyrewolf
- Member
- Posts: 7486
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada
On #1. I have been a fan of this design for awhile and have been looking forward to its eventual release. One thing I would like to ask Sal is about the design of the blade. One thing that made me think it was an MBC folder was the double-hollow ground modified dagger blade. What led to the development of this rather than your usual high-performance flat grind?
On #2. I am one of the people who will be splurging on the titanium version so my comments on the lower cost version may be less helpful, but I am a big fan of aluminum and I would buy an aluminum model with nested lock. I think that it would be ture to the conecept of a light and quick knife.
I have begun o have doubts about this in G10, despite G10's popularity. for one, I don't think you could make indexing holes in G10 with the risk of splinters, at most it would have to be indentations like on the Gunting. I think the concept calls for handles that are a little on the slick side for quick manipulations and reversal of grip. Steel would probably be the smartest choice since it is the least expensive, would offer an integral lock, and there are as many fans of "heft" as there are of F1 weightlessness. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
In sum, (with my practicality hat on), I think an aluminum model would make most sense as an alternative if you were not going to make the titanium version for whatever reason, or had to discontinue and replace a titanium version with a less expensive variation. For mass sales I think steel will be best since it will appeal to the large crowd who like heft, and super-strong folders -- I wouldn't modify the design with more skeletonizing to reduce weight, keep the design as is.
On consideration I have begun to consider G10 as too different from the fundamental concept, and it would make it too much many other knives in the collection. Keep ATR unique.
For VampyreWolf: Sal estimated that the cost of steel would be 60% of the Ti model. So if I guesstimate the Ti's MSRP at $225, the steel's MSRP would be $135. So perhaps a street price of $100 for a steel ATR? I think that might do well.
On #2. I am one of the people who will be splurging on the titanium version so my comments on the lower cost version may be less helpful, but I am a big fan of aluminum and I would buy an aluminum model with nested lock. I think that it would be ture to the conecept of a light and quick knife.
I have begun o have doubts about this in G10, despite G10's popularity. for one, I don't think you could make indexing holes in G10 with the risk of splinters, at most it would have to be indentations like on the Gunting. I think the concept calls for handles that are a little on the slick side for quick manipulations and reversal of grip. Steel would probably be the smartest choice since it is the least expensive, would offer an integral lock, and there are as many fans of "heft" as there are of F1 weightlessness. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>
In sum, (with my practicality hat on), I think an aluminum model would make most sense as an alternative if you were not going to make the titanium version for whatever reason, or had to discontinue and replace a titanium version with a less expensive variation. For mass sales I think steel will be best since it will appeal to the large crowd who like heft, and super-strong folders -- I wouldn't modify the design with more skeletonizing to reduce weight, keep the design as is.
On consideration I have begun to consider G10 as too different from the fundamental concept, and it would make it too much many other knives in the collection. Keep ATR unique.
For VampyreWolf: Sal estimated that the cost of steel would be 60% of the Ti model. So if I guesstimate the Ti's MSRP at $225, the steel's MSRP would be $135. So perhaps a street price of $100 for a steel ATR? I think that might do well.
-
Mr Blonde
- Member
- Posts: 7658
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: The Netherlands, Europe, Earth
- Contact:
I really like the looks of the ATR. I, and surely many knifeknuts with me, will definitely go for a titanium model. G10 versus aluminum, I am a fan of the G10 on my Military, but for this model I would prefer aluminum. It may provide a little more heft and perhaps better allow for the indexing holes. At what stage of development is the ATR, i.e. any tentative release dates?
Cheers,
Wouter
Cheers,
Wouter
I think Aluminum would be nice. Perhaps Spyderco could look into the bead-blasted anodized aluminum similar to that found on the Benchmade 940. It gives a very nice look IMO.
Another question... is the Salsa and the ATR the same knife? I thought they were different models, but now I dont know...
--Matt
Edited by - Mundele on 5/14/2001 6:58:02 PM
Another question... is the Salsa and the ATR the same knife? I thought they were different models, but now I dont know...
--Matt
Edited by - Mundele on 5/14/2001 6:58:02 PM
Hi Matt,
"Salsa" and ATR are two different knives of similar contruction. When I first saw the "Salsa" I thought it was an ATR Jr.
"Salsa" has a 2.5" blade, ATR has a 3.5" blade. Both have cobra hoods.
The "Salsas" will be flat ground (ti) and sabre ground (al). The ATR is double hollow-ground.
The high-end versions of both knives will be titanium integral compression locks. The lower cost Salsa will have an aluminum handle with nested lock.
The lower cost version of the ATR hasn't been decided yet, though it seems to be a question of either an integral lock in steel, or aluminum with a nested lock.
"Salsa" and ATR are two different knives of similar contruction. When I first saw the "Salsa" I thought it was an ATR Jr.
"Salsa" has a 2.5" blade, ATR has a 3.5" blade. Both have cobra hoods.
The "Salsas" will be flat ground (ti) and sabre ground (al). The ATR is double hollow-ground.
The high-end versions of both knives will be titanium integral compression locks. The lower cost Salsa will have an aluminum handle with nested lock.
The lower cost version of the ATR hasn't been decided yet, though it seems to be a question of either an integral lock in steel, or aluminum with a nested lock.
At this point the weight for a steel ATR is only a guesstimate -- they would actually have to make one to know for sure.
The steel Police and Endura are both listed as weighing 5.5oz. It has been my thought that if they could keep a steel ATR to 6oz (the same as the popular SERE 2000) - perhaps by adding another pair of indexing holes - then it would still pass muster for the "general market." I just checked he weight of the Chinook and it weighs in offically at 7.2oz -- so perhaps a steel ATR that is between 6 and 7oz is not an issue (at least not for the lovers of "heft"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.
Ken, your idea of a mixed knife with aluminum on the non-lock side is very interesting, but I wonder how the knife would feel in use with the imbalance of weight, and also I wonder if the market would accept it. Any thoughts?
BTW, unlike the Lum Tanto they intend to produce the low-cost and high-end versions of the ATR concurrently.
Edited by - Carlos on 5/15/2001 4:21:59 PM
The steel Police and Endura are both listed as weighing 5.5oz. It has been my thought that if they could keep a steel ATR to 6oz (the same as the popular SERE 2000) - perhaps by adding another pair of indexing holes - then it would still pass muster for the "general market." I just checked he weight of the Chinook and it weighs in offically at 7.2oz -- so perhaps a steel ATR that is between 6 and 7oz is not an issue (at least not for the lovers of "heft"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle>.
Ken, your idea of a mixed knife with aluminum on the non-lock side is very interesting, but I wonder how the knife would feel in use with the imbalance of weight, and also I wonder if the market would accept it. Any thoughts?
BTW, unlike the Lum Tanto they intend to produce the low-cost and high-end versions of the ATR concurrently.
Edited by - Carlos on 5/15/2001 4:21:59 PM
Oh, I thought that I should note that the weight of the titanium model is 4.75 oz -- so even it is not that light. I assume that an aluminum model with nested lock would also weigh in at around 5oz (due to the dual steel liners). I realized this miight provide some context for discussion of a steel ATR.
Hi Alan,
I'm with you on this. I was expecting a steel ATR to weigh less than the steel Police. I was extremely suprised when Sal estimated 6 to 7oz. I think a steel ATR would be quite popular with integral lock fanatics if the weight can be kept to about 6oz.
We won't know more on the actual situation until Sal gets back from his latest trip.
I'm with you on this. I was expecting a steel ATR to weigh less than the steel Police. I was extremely suprised when Sal estimated 6 to 7oz. I think a steel ATR would be quite popular with integral lock fanatics if the weight can be kept to about 6oz.
We won't know more on the actual situation until Sal gets back from his latest trip.
Hi guys. I'm back. still doing the "am I awake now?" bit with the jet lag.
Some very interesting concepts.
I would have liked to hear more opinion on Ken's idea of non symetrical materials.
The Lil' Temperance offers two nested liners, but it has a thicker blade (4mm, like the Military). But I don't think I'd call it a lite weight at 126 gm 4.44 oz.
The ATR has a thinner blade (3mm) but it's longer. I question whether or not a nested compression lock in G10 would be any lesss expensive than Titan.
I think SS might be the answer, with lotsa holes or a hybrid with SS and ?
sal
Some very interesting concepts.
I would have liked to hear more opinion on Ken's idea of non symetrical materials.
The Lil' Temperance offers two nested liners, but it has a thicker blade (4mm, like the Military). But I don't think I'd call it a lite weight at 126 gm 4.44 oz.
The ATR has a thinner blade (3mm) but it's longer. I question whether or not a nested compression lock in G10 would be any lesss expensive than Titan.
I think SS might be the answer, with lotsa holes or a hybrid with SS and ?
sal
On the issue of non-symmetry:
I've been pondering it, and since I (and others) feel no imbalance (side to side) in knives with single steel liners, then there will probably no problem with the feel of steel on one side and aluminum on the other.
The real problem as I see it would be the appearance -- as even if you use hybrid materials I think it needs to look homogenous for the general market to accept it. Could you give the aluminum a brushed finish and give it a very similar appearance to the steel side? Or would you rather use a coating for both?
A steel/Al hybird is IMO a much more elegant solution than drilling a mass of holes into an all steel model. At the very least it might be worth making a prototype and taking it to one of the upcoming knife shows for public reaction.
Another possibility on the hybrid theme would be titanium on the lock side, with aluminum on the other. This would be even lighter than an all titanium model, and would also cost less, though still much more than an all steel or steel/Al hybrid.
Any thoughts?
I've been pondering it, and since I (and others) feel no imbalance (side to side) in knives with single steel liners, then there will probably no problem with the feel of steel on one side and aluminum on the other.
The real problem as I see it would be the appearance -- as even if you use hybrid materials I think it needs to look homogenous for the general market to accept it. Could you give the aluminum a brushed finish and give it a very similar appearance to the steel side? Or would you rather use a coating for both?
A steel/Al hybird is IMO a much more elegant solution than drilling a mass of holes into an all steel model. At the very least it might be worth making a prototype and taking it to one of the upcoming knife shows for public reaction.
Another possibility on the hybrid theme would be titanium on the lock side, with aluminum on the other. This would be even lighter than an all titanium model, and would also cost less, though still much more than an all steel or steel/Al hybrid.
Any thoughts?
One more idea:
If all ATRs were made hybrid, then there would me a manufacturing economy in that you would only need to machine/stamp three different scales for the two different models. A steel left (lock) scale, a titanium left (lock) scale, and an aluminum right (non-lock) scale that would be used by both models -- only the finishing would/might be different.
If all ATRs were made hybrid, then there would me a manufacturing economy in that you would only need to machine/stamp three different scales for the two different models. A steel left (lock) scale, a titanium left (lock) scale, and an aluminum right (non-lock) scale that would be used by both models -- only the finishing would/might be different.
How feasible would it be to make the handles out of Al and use a steel insert/module for the lock section? I seem to remember Sal talking about trying to engineer a lock unit for the compression locks. Maybe Spyderco isn't at that point with the compression lock. If you did use a lock module you could make the handle out of almost anything--FRN, G-10, Carbon Fiber, Al, Ti. Using the same type of nesting concept as on a lot of the recent liner locks I think it would be plenty strong enough, especially since most of the force would be on the end of the lock leaf, and not at the leaf/handle junction.
Paul
Paul
Hi Paul,
The Lil' Temperance (or "Sal's Jambiya Jr." as I call it) coming out next month will have an integral compression lock in G10 scales, and I think Ken correctly pointed out that part of the unique identity of the ATR within Spyderco's collection is the integral lock design. If you consider how many people are fanatical about the CR Sebenza and its integral linerlock, the ATR will offer the same thing but in a fundamentally stronger form.
We did mention the possibility of aluminum scales with nested compression lock, but so far the consensus has been for integrals. Do you think that nested aluminum would be preferrable to a integral steel/aluminum hybrid, and if so, why?
My own thought is still that an all steel ATR, even if on the heavy side, would probably find the greatest acceptance from the general non-knifenut ELU. A ti/al hybrid might be exotic enough to appeal to most F1-grade clipit buyers -- I know that I would buy it or an all titanium one. In this case the hybridization could be a marketable "feature."
Again, regarding the mass-market version of the ATR: perhaps the best thing to do would be to take an all steel proto and a steel/al hybrid proto to some knife shows for feedback. The problem we have as techno-junkies is judging what the non-junkies will find appealing.
Edited by - Carlos on 5/31/2001 7:08:17 AM
The Lil' Temperance (or "Sal's Jambiya Jr." as I call it) coming out next month will have an integral compression lock in G10 scales, and I think Ken correctly pointed out that part of the unique identity of the ATR within Spyderco's collection is the integral lock design. If you consider how many people are fanatical about the CR Sebenza and its integral linerlock, the ATR will offer the same thing but in a fundamentally stronger form.
We did mention the possibility of aluminum scales with nested compression lock, but so far the consensus has been for integrals. Do you think that nested aluminum would be preferrable to a integral steel/aluminum hybrid, and if so, why?
My own thought is still that an all steel ATR, even if on the heavy side, would probably find the greatest acceptance from the general non-knifenut ELU. A ti/al hybrid might be exotic enough to appeal to most F1-grade clipit buyers -- I know that I would buy it or an all titanium one. In this case the hybridization could be a marketable "feature."
Again, regarding the mass-market version of the ATR: perhaps the best thing to do would be to take an all steel proto and a steel/al hybrid proto to some knife shows for feedback. The problem we have as techno-junkies is judging what the non-junkies will find appealing.
Edited by - Carlos on 5/31/2001 7:08:17 AM
Yes, Carlos I am aware of the integral compression lock(s) that are in the works. The conversation had turned to ways of making the compression lock knives (in particular the ATR) lighter. I feel that people will not respond favorably to a knife with half the handle Al (or Ti) and the other half steel. While it might save weight, it would still be heavier than an all Ti or all Al handle. You would get all the drawbacks of both materials (one side is heavy, the other is soft). I'm sure that a handle like that would work, but I don't think most ELU, even knife knuts, would be enthralled with it. With a lock module, the handle could be kept light, but the strength of the lock remain very high. Since the compression lock works by squeezing a tab of metal between the blade, and stop pin the strength of an integral lock is a little overkill. The forces on a Sebenza integral lock (or any linerlock) are in a different direction than on the compression lock. Therefore a nested compression lock leaf/bar with two screws should be plenty strong. It works in the Military where stresses are transferred along the length of the linerlock leaf.
Paul
Paul