Praise for Delica - Call for harder steel

[thombrogan]

I just got my Benchmade 921 Switchback from a knifemaker who also performs heat-treating and blade rehardening. Even with its sides thinned out much finer than the production model and even with a 26-included degree edge that isn't even .5mm thick (even with its 24 degree back-bevel), it cuts through materials that caused edge-roll and edge-fracture on a similarly sharpened Calypso Jr. (which now, thanks to the magic of convex edges cuts extremely well while resisting chipping or rolling).

What's that have to do with Delica? The Delica is much much better buy when everything's compared. My NIB Delica cut almost as well as my NIB 921 Switchback despite costing less than a third of the 921 Switchback's discounted price ($40 versus $125). Then, with a half-hour of TLC on my EdgePro Apex, the Delica outcut the 921 Switchback which had 30+ hours of the same TLC and a reputedly better steel. To reclaim its title as best-cutting folder I own (from the heavily reprofiled and convex-edged Calypso Jr), I needed to spend an additional forty smackers getting my 921's blade rehardened. While it was worth it to me, it took 100 times the labor and 4 times the money to make a Benchmade surpass a Spyderco. Of course, I plan to get my removeable S30V Spyderco blades rehardened, too, so my Spyderco collection will retain their position as my best cutters.

So Sal, if you could start running your S30V and VG10 blades at RC61, I'd be very thankful. Maybe not on the Delica, Endura, Polica, and Native, as they probably sell to a larger audience of ELUs than your ATR, Chinook II, Dodo, Manix, Lil Temperance, Yojimbo, Stretch, Scorpius, and Kiwi (amongst others), but it'd otherwise be very kewl.

If you could have a Chinook II in S30V at HRC61 would you do it? I know I would!

[Jimmy_Dean]

You know, the more I get into knives, the more I pay attention to these kind of details. My pre-Spyderco selection factors were: do I think it looks good?
Now steel, RC, ergos and everything are more important than ever. I agree RC61 would be pretty nice if it doesn't raise the cost too much and doesn't make the knife that much harder to sharpen. Let's keep in mind the Delica/Endura are not only for knife aficionados, they are also bought by the average joe and being affordable and low maintenance is a priority.

On the ATR though....that's a different story :)
Great idea!
-Dean

[JD Spydo]

Yes indeed Jimmy Dean you once again have stolen my thunder. I can really relate with everything you just said. I for instance, pretty much have my Spyderco Steel Chart that Mr. Glesser gave me almost memorized. Just for a little side note I believe that everyone had ought to strive to be a factory knife expert before they even think about scrutinizing a premium Custom Hand Forged knife. That's what I like about the Great :spyder: Factory so much. They almost force you to educate yourself about the qualities and properties of a well built knife. One might think the handle material for instance may not be of any significant importance. How wrong I used to be to think that way. Now when I contemplate the purchase of a new :spyder: or any other knife as far as that goes, I ask about 6 questions regarding material, blade style, handle, locking mechanisms and even the geometry of the grip. That ought to be on the Great :spyder: factory's website: " A KNIFE PURCHASE CHECK LIST" Jimmy I hope you get back into the movies some day. I really liked "East of Eden". :D :spyder: :)

[Sword and Shield]

I like really hard steels. I use 60-61 RC at work every day, and it never chips out on me. VG-10 in 60-61 would be sweet, as would be D2. :)

[Jimmy_Dean]

Yes indeed Jimmy Dean you once again have stolen my thunder.

It's true, we seem to agree on quite a few things here. Hope we'll have a beer some day at a blade show. You sound like a nice guy. And by the way, East of Eden is my favorite too :P

[JDEE]

Why a harder steel? From my knowledge VG10 has just about reached its limits with Spyderco any harder would increase it's brittleness and make it a lot harder to sharpen for the average knife user. From my experience as a seller once a brand gets the reputation of being too harden to sharpen sales fall off with the average buyer. I am sure this is one of the considerations taken into account by Spyderco. With S30V I think the jury is still out on what is its optimum hardness but I have no problems with my Native and it does a fair bit of hard work and is up there a Dozier and a Krein both in D2 at 60+. I believe economics play a big part in a manufacturers decision re steel hardness and I for one wouldn't want to see the price of Spydies increase for the sake of a couple of points on the rockwell scale. I like to use them and sell them.

[thombrogan]

Why a harder steel? From my knowledge VG10 has just about reached its limits with Spyderco any harder would increase it's brittleness and make it a lot harder to sharpen for the average knife user.

A harder steel allows you to sharpen to a more acute angle with less burr formation. That equals a better cutter. If you go back, I specifically asked to not have the higher hardness applied to knives such as the Delica, Endura, Polica, and Native specifically for the objection of the nonknife person who needs a knife. For any person with a Sharpmaker, a thinly ground blade with a hardened edge is actually easier and quicker to sharpen than a thicker, softer blade.

From my experience as a seller once a brand gets the reputation of being too harden to sharpen sales fall off with the average buyer.

That's why it should be reserved for the higher end models and specialized slicers. In the FRN world, that'd be the Calypso Jr and Centofante III (you right-handed people had better appreciate that knife! ), elsewhere, it'd be the ATR, Spyderfly, Lil Temperance, and so forth.

Don't underestimate a 'few rockwell points'. Expect to see some Spyderco knives come out in ZDP-189 over the next year or so (or at least pray :) ).

[JDEE]

Don't underestimate the problem with hard blades for a manufacturer - one example is that of Puma which received an adverse reputation with average knife buyers due to their hard blades. IMO you are asking too much of Spyderco to come up with hard blades just for the sake of a minority of buyers. Don't get me wrong I am not against blades around 61 as that is about the best for steels such as D2. I am sure that Sal and co have done their homework and they know what sells for them - IMO it would be "bad business" to push the hardness envelope too far in production knives. It would be a different matter if Spyderco set up a custom shop to provide such blades for those who require them.

I don't believe the Calypso Jr needs to be any harder then it is - Yes! Maybe if it was produced in S30V. The Calypso is a slicer - a very good slicer which is easy to sharpen. Not everyone has a Sharpmaker nor is everyone proficient in blade sharpening. In my experience the Calypso is perfect as it is for the job it was designed for.

When I was making knives I found it necessary to have a mixture of hardness - some at 59 and some at 61. The 59's were of course cheaper due to the labour involved in sharpening at 61 and to tell the truth I sold more at 59 then 61 to the average knife user. So it is a matter of economics.

Anyway I hope that Sal can meet your requests somehow. Maybe he can but I doubt whether we will see many if any of the current models with harder steels.

[thombrogan]

JDEE,

Time will tell and you're probably right about the business part of the equation. I don't think that anyone knows everything about anything. They might know all that's currently known, but there's that permanent chasm between known and knowable. That might apply to selling knives, too.

In the meantime, I just barely reprofiled my Chinook II's blades down below 30 degrees (so that resharpening on the Sharpmaker will be easy even with a harder steel) and removed the blade to get it rehardened. If you've had the pleasure of owning a Chinook II, it's quite a surprize that its smooth openings happen even though it has microscopic washers (or maybe that's because I'm a former Benchmade fan and thick, phosphor-bronze washers are my answer to everything). RC 61 Chinook II blade to be mine soon! Whee!

[Jimmy_Dean]

Tell us about it when you get it back. It's good to see a user pushing the limits of a knife's performances. Nice going! And I didn't even know the Chinook had washers...
-Dean

[JDEE]

Don't know about the Chinook - I have a nice Benchmade Rant Bowie that covers my needs in that arena but I have just ordered a ParaMilitary which is about as large as I want to go in a folder. My main reason is the flat ground blade.

[thombrogan]

Tell us about it when you get it back.

It's unfreakingbelievable! The thing is, the knife, as made by :spyder: , is already at the top of the heap in terms of design. Now, it can take and hold an edge at a much lower angle than 40 without too much burring on the way and, at any angle, take more impact before it rolls or chips.

[GarageBoy]

Wait, what did you do to your Calypso Jr and your BM 921 still beats it?

[thombrogan]

Not still beats it. Finally beats it! My Calypso Jr and 921 Switcback both have 22-included degree back bevels. The Calypso Jr kept losing its edge from light cutting with a 26-degree included angle. It lost its edge by rolling and fracturing. Even with its new, much thicker convex edge (same back bevel), it still took a dent from light cutting (plastic soda bottle). The 921 Switchback has harder steel and its 26 degree edge is a lot more durable. If the Calypso Jr's pivot wasn't riveted, I have no doubt that Mr. Wilson could've fixed it to my liking.

[GarageBoy]

Wait, who is doing this rehardening? Thanks! I'm hoping for the Calypso Jr in ZDP

[denn]

i don't care much about the RC, 58-59 is fine enough with me. i do agree with the Delica/Endura though........>Spyderco, put some VG-10 on these things, and be done with the medieval AUS-6 already! :D

talkin' bout the SS-models. they need VG-10 as much the FRN's. i prefer the steel handled versions and can't stand that those come with aus-6 instead of vg-10 (different production-locations?) :confused:

[Franco G]

thombrogan,

Apsolutely agree with you.
I bought the Fällkniven U2 folder in laminated SPGS steel which is hardened to Rc 62. Many people praised this knife. As Nemo wrote, 'it cuts, and cuts, and cuts, ... and cuts, and cuts, and cuts', etc.
I know that first versions of Moran and Shabaria had VG-10 at Rc 60-62.
Concerning the Rc of S30V - there is a thread http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=243075 I started, with your contributions too, where Sal did comments, e.g.

S30V can achieve the higher Rc, but getting there requires some heat treating materials that are not any longer legal to use in USA production houses. Traditional gas / cryo furnaces can only get to 58-59.

Recently, Sal said that S30V is rather at Rc 59/60, although it is quoted at Rc 58-60.

I started an another thread with an idea to do a run (of Native) with BG-42 steel at Rc 60+. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showt ... p?t=321209

Now, back to reality!
I believe the most promising idea is to have a run of Caly jr. and Delica in ZDP-189 steel. Sal said, this steel is not brittle even at Rc 65!

Franco

[thombrogan]

My Chinook II tested at RC58. Now it's 60.5/61 and completely fine. May even try the impossible goal of giving it a mirror finish.

Don't know if every method of obtaining the necessary heat violates OSHA, but I was told that the method used on my knives shortens the furnace life compared to running the heat a wee bit lower and getting RC58-60.

[GarageBoy]

Good Luck!

[druid]

what is the rockwell of spyderco aus 8 :confused: sarry :o :o :o