I just became aware of this yesterday thanks to my wife ..., who recognized the type of knife used in this tragedy. Seems a drunken Harvard student was on his way home in the wee hours and somehow .... got into it with a couple of guys. According to him, he was being beaten severely and feared for his life. He pulled his knife (a Spyderco Military, see attached pic) and according to him, "accidently" killed one of the alleged attackers.
Now he's on trial for murder .... What say yee? Is he guilty or not? The jury is about to decide on what has become a high profile case. Lots and lots of press on this. Go to Google and query on Harvard and stabbing to see some of the articles.
SR
Harvard Student --- Murder or Self Defense ??
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Stevie Ray
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Harvard Student --- Murder or Self Defense ??
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Steve
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The Deacon
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Steve, based on a posting Sal made a day or two ago in his "need your help" thread, think this is the case he was gathering info for. As for me, almost ashamed to admit how little I know about this case, but to me it would depend very much on two things, first the number, nature, and location of the wounds to the young man who died, and second the nature and severity of any injuries to the defendant.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
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WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
Yes, Deacon. I've been involved in providing information for the defense because I designed the knife.
Also your immediate questions are quite astute. The stories between the prosecution and the defense are quite different. It seems that knife knowledge was quite limited. Even as to the understanding of "why some one would carry a knife?"
The survey that I posted provided excellent information from all over the world. The information was sent to Boston.
I was very impressed with the response. Many were even first time posters, so again I must thank all of those that participated.
The original purpose of the design of the knife was not as a weapon. (clearly described in the "Spyderco Story" by Ken Delavigne) Which apparently had bearing on the "intent" question.
I'm considered an "expert witness" in knife related cases, so sharing of information is a responsibility.
The trial is on Court TV and details can usually be found on CourtTV.com though a couple of days behind.
I think that this case clearly demonstrates that one should not consider using a knife for self defense unless you really have no other way out and your health is in jeapoardy. A knife is considered "deadly force" when used in self defense and is frowned upon by authorities.
sal
Also your immediate questions are quite astute. The stories between the prosecution and the defense are quite different. It seems that knife knowledge was quite limited. Even as to the understanding of "why some one would carry a knife?"
The survey that I posted provided excellent information from all over the world. The information was sent to Boston.
I was very impressed with the response. Many were even first time posters, so again I must thank all of those that participated.
The original purpose of the design of the knife was not as a weapon. (clearly described in the "Spyderco Story" by Ken Delavigne) Which apparently had bearing on the "intent" question.
I'm considered an "expert witness" in knife related cases, so sharing of information is a responsibility.
The trial is on Court TV and details can usually be found on CourtTV.com though a couple of days behind.
I think that this case clearly demonstrates that one should not consider using a knife for self defense unless you really have no other way out and your health is in jeapoardy. A knife is considered "deadly force" when used in self defense and is frowned upon by authorities.
sal
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Concord_Bob
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Never drink and drive....
Never drink and knife....
Despite the very silly pun I am concerned what kind of bearing this might have on the perception of knives in general and of Spydies in particular. I pray for an outcome of this case that has no negative impact on Spyderco.
The intend reminds me of the fact, that just this afternoon I used my Yo, which was clearly designed for MBC, to peel and dice 4 apples for my lunch pack for the next week (it did a good job on it, too!).
Never drink and knife....
Despite the very silly pun I am concerned what kind of bearing this might have on the perception of knives in general and of Spydies in particular. I pray for an outcome of this case that has no negative impact on Spyderco.
The intend reminds me of the fact, that just this afternoon I used my Yo, which was clearly designed for MBC, to peel and dice 4 apples for my lunch pack for the next week (it did a good job on it, too!).
My Take
Hello All
I have been following this case because of the possible implications to Spyderco users and collectors.
Firstly, whatever the outcome, a life has been lost and that must be our first consideration. We all have our opinions but the job of deciding a person’s innocence or guilt is in the hands of the court. That being said, from the reports I have read there are some “facts” you might be interested in.
The injuries received by the accused (from photographs taken the following day) are not consistent with injuries he should have had if he had endured the type of attack he claims he did. This brings into question the need for the level of violence he used in response to the attack.
According to all the witnesses, the whole incident from beginning to end lasted for approximately 10 seconds. That doesn’t seem a great deal of time in which anyone can assess a situation, decide that your life is being seriously threatened, decide on an appropriate reaction, draw and deploy a knife and stab a person five times.
The accused is described by his peers and teachers as being “not one to back down when challenged.” He is a large, strong individual who plays a lot of rugby. I feel that the alcohol has played a large part in the outcome of this incident. It is very unfortunate that he was carrying the knife when he was intoxicated. As others here have already said, alcohol and weapons, (of any kind) don’t mix too well.
The young man who died was no angel. He had convictions for violence and drug related crimes. Should he have lost his life in this situation? The jury will decide.
Regards Ken
I have been following this case because of the possible implications to Spyderco users and collectors.
Firstly, whatever the outcome, a life has been lost and that must be our first consideration. We all have our opinions but the job of deciding a person’s innocence or guilt is in the hands of the court. That being said, from the reports I have read there are some “facts” you might be interested in.
The injuries received by the accused (from photographs taken the following day) are not consistent with injuries he should have had if he had endured the type of attack he claims he did. This brings into question the need for the level of violence he used in response to the attack.
According to all the witnesses, the whole incident from beginning to end lasted for approximately 10 seconds. That doesn’t seem a great deal of time in which anyone can assess a situation, decide that your life is being seriously threatened, decide on an appropriate reaction, draw and deploy a knife and stab a person five times.
The accused is described by his peers and teachers as being “not one to back down when challenged.” He is a large, strong individual who plays a lot of rugby. I feel that the alcohol has played a large part in the outcome of this incident. It is very unfortunate that he was carrying the knife when he was intoxicated. As others here have already said, alcohol and weapons, (of any kind) don’t mix too well.
The young man who died was no angel. He had convictions for violence and drug related crimes. Should he have lost his life in this situation? The jury will decide.
Regards Ken
i'm really sorry for this case.first because a man died for NOTHING..
and,after reading the infos, seems to me that this wasnt the case to use a knife. i completely agree with UK KEN.
this could be an heavy shot for all us knifenuts, there's no balance between the injuries (quite nothing) and to stab 5 times a person.. if was a single thrust, maybe on a leg or arm, it could be justified.
you cant kill a person for a jab on an eye.
i think this story will have bad effects on the image of people carrying a knife, and the sentence will make no difference, even if he will be declared not guilty (ehm, he's probally rich so he probally has the best lawyers,and the other was -at least- a juvenile delinquent) ..
Also ,the Milllie ,for average sheeple's mind, isnt exactly a cute and small knife..
after this case any of us could be seen as a potential killer...
**** **** ****
and,after reading the infos, seems to me that this wasnt the case to use a knife. i completely agree with UK KEN.
this could be an heavy shot for all us knifenuts, there's no balance between the injuries (quite nothing) and to stab 5 times a person.. if was a single thrust, maybe on a leg or arm, it could be justified.
you cant kill a person for a jab on an eye.
i think this story will have bad effects on the image of people carrying a knife, and the sentence will make no difference, even if he will be declared not guilty (ehm, he's probally rich so he probally has the best lawyers,and the other was -at least- a juvenile delinquent) ..
Also ,the Milllie ,for average sheeple's mind, isnt exactly a cute and small knife..
after this case any of us could be seen as a potential killer...
**** **** ****
cc #141
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
http://www.gnm.it - graphic design
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Jimmy_Dean
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****, ****, ****!
And I go to school 2 mi from Havard...and I carry a knife to school, which is illegal, but most of the faculty knows about it and tolerate it because they have seen me use it responsibly (as a matter of fact, they have borrowed it multiple times as it is often much safer than using the ubiquitous razor blades that don't have a handle and my slip, fold or break) and its been quite a while since I have been an undergrad, too, so I don't spend my time in the classroom, where you might indeed argue that a knife is unnecessary. I guess, I have to re-evaluate, what I bring to school.
And I go to school 2 mi from Havard...and I carry a knife to school, which is illegal, but most of the faculty knows about it and tolerate it because they have seen me use it responsibly (as a matter of fact, they have borrowed it multiple times as it is often much safer than using the ubiquitous razor blades that don't have a handle and my slip, fold or break) and its been quite a while since I have been an undergrad, too, so I don't spend my time in the classroom, where you might indeed argue that a knife is unnecessary. I guess, I have to re-evaluate, what I bring to school.
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Concord_Bob
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The average time involved in a Police shooting is 7 seconds. You are right, it isn't much time. Even if you are well trained and not impaired by alcohol.UK KEN wrote: According to all the witnesses, the whole incident from beginning to end lasted for approximately 10 seconds. That doesn’t seem a great deal of time in which anyone can assess a situation, decide that your life is being seriously threatened, decide on an appropriate reaction, draw and deploy a knife and stab a person five times.
Regards Ken
From what you are telling us it sounds like the prosecutor was right in filing charges. This guy had been drinking which slows reaction time down. So it sounds like he went right to the knife.
So if someone attacks you, (some) you people believe you have no right to defend yourself with extreme prejudice? If I get attacked by anyone in more than a playful manner, they've just declared war on me. In war, you kill the enemy. It shouldn't matter how big someone is, how well they can fight, how strong they are, or if they are drunk. The most reasonable action (in a split second decision) of a person that is being attacked is to counter it with the most effective attack they have. In this case he used his most effective weapon. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. He was being attacked by 2 people too.
I'm just going off the information provided in this thread.
I'm just going off the information provided in this thread.
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TheSurgeon
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I am not as "hot" as you are... maybe because (I assume) I am older...
I like to keep it "cold".
Although if someone would point a gun to my had I wouldn't think about how to get out (ASAP) of the situation but how to kill (also ASAP) the SoB.
TheSurgeon :mad:
also about this matter - see my post at:
[url=http://]http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12183[/url]
I like to keep it "cold".
Although if someone would point a gun to my had I wouldn't think about how to get out (ASAP) of the situation but how to kill (also ASAP) the SoB.
TheSurgeon :mad:
also about this matter - see my post at:
[url=http://]http://www.spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12183[/url]
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TheSurgeon
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OK! I might regret this, but, here goes. You get into an argument with two 11 year olds. They proceed to attack you. It happens that you are carrying a hand gun, (your most effective weapon!) you pull it out and shoot the pair of them twice each in the head! Problem solved!skcusloa wrote:So if someone attacks you, (some) you people believe you have no right to defend yourself with extreme prejudice? If I get attacked by anyone in more than a playful manner, they've just declared war on me. In war, you kill the enemy. It shouldn't matter how big someone is, how well they can fight, how strong they are, or if they are drunk. The most reasonable action (in a split second decision) of a person that is being attacked is to counter it with the most effective attack they have. In this case he used his most effective weapon. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6. He was being attacked by 2 people too.
I'm just going off the information provided in this thread.
This is why legally; "levels of response" are to be considered in any situation. You can’t be serious when you say in any conflict your first aim is to kill your assailant! With respect, you are not at war and I doubt, with your attitude that you ever have been. If and when you find yourself in a situation where your only option is to take another persons life I wonder how you will cope with the emotions involved both during the act and for many years after.
Trust me; bravado goes right out of the window! It changes your life and the lives of many others. You might want to ignore the law that does take into account the capability of a person defending themselves; it is there for a reason. If Mike Tyson hade been in the same situation as the defendant would you still use the same argument? Would it have been reasonable for Mike to feel it was necessary to use a knife.
We all have our own thoughts about this case but surely taking a life in any situation has got to be the last resort.
Regards Ken
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Mr Blonde
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when I first started carrying a knife, I made the decision not to carry a when going out. Not that I would become so aggressive that I would harm anyone, but rather in the same vain, that you shouldn't drink and drive. In addition, more and more bars are searching actively for weapons and are using metal detectors. It's a complex case though... :confused:
Wouter
Wouter
Interesting Case:
To bad were not privy to all the info. the jury has. So it makes it hard to form an opinion.
But,
It looks to me like Wilson was just walking home when he was accosted by Colono and his cousin! Some time words is all it takes!
If he was attacked by these two than he did what he thought was necessary. I doubt he caresless if they were 12 or 35, he just knows a whole can of whoop-@aa is about to happen. To bad he didn't just get out of there! I'm sure his adrenaline is a pumpin'. One minute he is "cold and calculated" and the next he is a "stumbling drunk". I doubt he really had any intention of killing someone. Is it any different than a cop un-loading his service revolver into a "bad guy" ? Depends huh! How many shots were fired 1-2-3--------13 like you would be counting.
Wilson is the one to call 911 even though he lied, no doubt scared. How come it took so long to get Colono medical help? And I believe it said that Colono and his cousin were in an altercation early that night. You go out lookin' for trouble you just might find it! Who is really the victim here?
When is it OK to use deadly force to portect ones self?
Now what if Wilson didn't have a knife but picked up a 2x4 and killed Colono would that be any different or is all knives considered "Weapons".
Bottom line (and it was said before): IT's A **** SHAME!
Now we will need something like the: NKA (national knife assoication) to portect our rights as knife owners.
ken
To bad were not privy to all the info. the jury has. So it makes it hard to form an opinion.
But,
It looks to me like Wilson was just walking home when he was accosted by Colono and his cousin! Some time words is all it takes!
If he was attacked by these two than he did what he thought was necessary. I doubt he caresless if they were 12 or 35, he just knows a whole can of whoop-@aa is about to happen. To bad he didn't just get out of there! I'm sure his adrenaline is a pumpin'. One minute he is "cold and calculated" and the next he is a "stumbling drunk". I doubt he really had any intention of killing someone. Is it any different than a cop un-loading his service revolver into a "bad guy" ? Depends huh! How many shots were fired 1-2-3--------13 like you would be counting.
Wilson is the one to call 911 even though he lied, no doubt scared. How come it took so long to get Colono medical help? And I believe it said that Colono and his cousin were in an altercation early that night. You go out lookin' for trouble you just might find it! Who is really the victim here?
When is it OK to use deadly force to portect ones self?
Now what if Wilson didn't have a knife but picked up a 2x4 and killed Colono would that be any different or is all knives considered "Weapons".
Bottom line (and it was said before): IT's A **** SHAME!
Now we will need something like the: NKA (national knife assoication) to portect our rights as knife owners.
ken
ken