Aloha ALL!
Fight breaks out during chow. I respond first, grabbing one of the inmates involved in the throw down. Suddenly, I get nailed from behind by my excited partner, and next thing I know, I am on the ground with the inmate...I have said it before: Concrete hurts! LOL! Anyway, my other partner grabbed the other inmate involved. Cool.
This was a strange incident in that I was able to "catch myself"...read on! I had the inmate on the ground in an arm bar, and was ready to boot his face, but I can't do that. I then saw an opening for an axe type kick to his sternum, or chin...can't do that. He was resisting despite my verbal commands to stop as he wanted a piece of the inmate he was fighting with as he was losing, so I cranked the arm bar...but i can't do that. I then heard him say, "okay, okay, 'nuff already, I pau!" So, I slacked the pressure, and he starts up again! (This was my fault as I broke my own rule in that I assumed compliance! ****.) So we end up standing and I managed to get him in a clinch. I then cocked my knee, ready to fire off a knee strike, as his head was right by my waist...but I can't do that. I then was gonna sink in a choke, but I can't do that. So i then steered him into a wall and controlled him there in the clinch as FINALLY another CO grabs his arm and starts to cuff him.
****...IF he was attacking ME, it would have ended at the arm bar with his arm snapping, I'm sorry to say. But he was after the inmate he was losing to. It was strange in that I was able to catch myself in what I "can" and "cannot" do by our policy rules. Hence the heading to this post...I think that sucks. I caught myself before, but not to this extent...USUALLY, I am not questioned when I am attacked. This time however, had I broken the inmates arm, I envision Internal Affairs giving me suspension W/O pay for at least 30 days...
It's hard sometimes as these inmates can attack us with all they got, resist us w/ all they got, and we gotta follow rules in how we react and respond. Caught between a rock and that proverbial "hard place"...
ANYWAY, just thought I'd share this ordinary day in my life...geez. I dunno what hurt more, the concrete or the paperwork that followed! LOL!
God bless all...
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Sometimes, rules SUCK!!!
Chad,
I know how you feel. I know that you know that. ;-)
Sometimes, you need to bend the rules just a tad bit. I've done it, that's for certain.
Fortunately, we're allowed to use whatever force is necessary to bring the situation under control. Of course, we're not allowed to use any more force than is necessary, either.
I'm very glad to hear that you and your brothers were able to come away basically unharmed. No doubt, you'll go over the incident a couple thousand times in your mind (you likely have already!). During this process, you'll dissect what happened and learn from it.
Peace, brother.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
I know how you feel. I know that you know that. ;-)
Sometimes, you need to bend the rules just a tad bit. I've done it, that's for certain.
Fortunately, we're allowed to use whatever force is necessary to bring the situation under control. Of course, we're not allowed to use any more force than is necessary, either.
I'm very glad to hear that you and your brothers were able to come away basically unharmed. No doubt, you'll go over the incident a couple thousand times in your mind (you likely have already!). During this process, you'll dissect what happened and learn from it.
Peace, brother.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
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samosaurus
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Hi Chad - Using your head is taking responsibility! Even in situations like this where split second decisions are vital. From the way you discribe the incident you became involved with, I understand that in all the turmoil you had the time to think and see openings and/or possibilities to severely injure your opponent. You did not take advantage of them out of responsibility or ,call it, respect!!!
The fact that you realized these things and are able to report them, tells me that in this fight you were completely on top of things. In complete control as you were able to think and think right. No use of reflexes or instincts.
Good work partner! Have a great weekend!
BTW, we now drink coffee until X-mas. We received more last week!
Thanks Bud!.
Clipits work!
The fact that you realized these things and are able to report them, tells me that in this fight you were completely on top of things. In complete control as you were able to think and think right. No use of reflexes or instincts.
Good work partner! Have a great weekend!
BTW, we now drink coffee until X-mas. We received more last week!
Thanks Bud!.
Clipits work!
Aloha ALL!
Thanks for all the support guys. I hear ya Jim! But, there were TOO many witnesses, and as I stated the inmate was NOT attacking me, he just was not complying to verbals.
Like you, we are not allowed to use any "excessive force"...but **** man. That is such a relative term. I spoke to my LT about the incident and gave him some "what if I did..." sorta questions. He of course stated that it was a good thing I "didn't"..."I.A. woulda had your @$$!!!" he said. Simply due to the fact that we were not taught such things in Basic Correction Training. Ya hear me Jim? LOL! Useful things such as pain compliance locks, takedowns, how to steer your perp in a clinch, use of body weapons in a CQC situation... They don't provide such training, therefore, I am NOT allowed to use it. Geez...and yes brother, I have rewound the mental tape of the incident over and over again. I learned that ALL my training wasn't for nothing, and being a trainer of CO's, I am thankful that I have a sense of knowing "when" and "where"...otherwise, I'd be explaining to Internal Affairs how I broke the inmates arm next week! It was a trip...
Jurphaas, LOL, mahalo my friend. My left knee is feeling it today, but other than that, I am all good! Thanks for your kind words, but you give me TOO much credit for my reaction to this incident. It all just...I dunno how to explain it, "flowed".
I'll e ya later sir!
Mahalo all! But like I said, it was just another day for me.*Sigh*
God bless you guys!
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Thanks for all the support guys. I hear ya Jim! But, there were TOO many witnesses, and as I stated the inmate was NOT attacking me, he just was not complying to verbals.
Like you, we are not allowed to use any "excessive force"...but **** man. That is such a relative term. I spoke to my LT about the incident and gave him some "what if I did..." sorta questions. He of course stated that it was a good thing I "didn't"..."I.A. woulda had your @$$!!!" he said. Simply due to the fact that we were not taught such things in Basic Correction Training. Ya hear me Jim? LOL! Useful things such as pain compliance locks, takedowns, how to steer your perp in a clinch, use of body weapons in a CQC situation... They don't provide such training, therefore, I am NOT allowed to use it. Geez...and yes brother, I have rewound the mental tape of the incident over and over again. I learned that ALL my training wasn't for nothing, and being a trainer of CO's, I am thankful that I have a sense of knowing "when" and "where"...otherwise, I'd be explaining to Internal Affairs how I broke the inmates arm next week! It was a trip...
Jurphaas, LOL, mahalo my friend. My left knee is feeling it today, but other than that, I am all good! Thanks for your kind words, but you give me TOO much credit for my reaction to this incident. It all just...I dunno how to explain it, "flowed".
I'll e ya later sir!
Mahalo all! But like I said, it was just another day for me.*Sigh*
God bless you guys!
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
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death-bringah
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Seems to me that if you wanted to see this guy hurt so badly, you should have just let him fight with the other inmate...after all, he was losing right?
If "Aliens VS Predator" taught me anything, it's that the enemy of your enemy is a friend.
So, if you're not intervening for the inmate's own "protection", what's the point? After all, like you said, it would be different if he attacked you.
take care, man....death-bringah
If "Aliens VS Predator" taught me anything, it's that the enemy of your enemy is a friend.
So, if you're not intervening for the inmate's own "protection", what's the point? After all, like you said, it would be different if he attacked you.
take care, man....death-bringah
Chad Posted: Simply due to the fact that we were not taught such things in Basic Correction Training. Ya hear me Jim? LOL! Useful things such as pain compliance locks, takedowns, how to steer your perp in a clinch, use of body weapons in a CQC situation... They don't provide such training, therefore, I am NOT allowed to use it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Chad, I know precisely what you're talking about.
A few years back, amazingly, my agency began teaching level 5 Defensive Tactics (knee, elbow, fist strikes, kicks, etc.) to every officer in our department. In doing so, they opened up pretty much every option for us in a fight. It's one of the very, very few decent moves my department has ever made for us; I'm convinced it was an accident.
But you are correct in that if an officer is not trained in a particular area, they're not allowed to employ those techniques on the job. It is unfortunate that they give us a nearly impossible task, and then limit our available responses.
Take care, brother.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Chad, I know precisely what you're talking about.
A few years back, amazingly, my agency began teaching level 5 Defensive Tactics (knee, elbow, fist strikes, kicks, etc.) to every officer in our department. In doing so, they opened up pretty much every option for us in a fight. It's one of the very, very few decent moves my department has ever made for us; I'm convinced it was an accident.
But you are correct in that if an officer is not trained in a particular area, they're not allowed to employ those techniques on the job. It is unfortunate that they give us a nearly impossible task, and then limit our available responses.
Take care, brother.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
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Shards of Narsil
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dialex
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There's and ancient Chinese proverb that sais "May you have an interesting life". You guys sure have an interesting (and definitely exciting) life <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> Thank God I have a boring one. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
OTOH Chad, I second to Jurphaas, that you proved you were in control of all the situation, from start to end. Should the need really occured you could take advantage of the "illegal" moves and it would have been considered self defense - isn't the concept of self defense applied in Western jails (sorry correction facilities), BTW?
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
OTOH Chad, I second to Jurphaas, that you proved you were in control of all the situation, from start to end. Should the need really occured you could take advantage of the "illegal" moves and it would have been considered self defense - isn't the concept of self defense applied in Western jails (sorry correction facilities), BTW?
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
Mahalo again to all of you!
Alexandru the Great: Funny you mention self defense because the topic with my LT who passed away was "what if I did..?" He told me, "Chad, I don't care what you do if an inmate is atttacking you, it's your life or his!" BUT, being the man that he was, he then stated, "BUT he wasn't attacking you, right?" Another funny thing is that the incident took only a matter of seconds...but like all the incidents I have been involved in, it's like in "Matrix slo-mo"...weird.
Alex, if the facility does not provide the training for it, we are not allowed to use it. PERIOD! EVEN if my life was on the line, and I used techniques not given to me via training by the facility, there'd be a LOT of red tape for me to go through! And instead of being concerned about me returning home to my family, Internal Affairs would be more concerned about the inmate!
Ask Jim and Rex G...
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Alexandru the Great: Funny you mention self defense because the topic with my LT who passed away was "what if I did..?" He told me, "Chad, I don't care what you do if an inmate is atttacking you, it's your life or his!" BUT, being the man that he was, he then stated, "BUT he wasn't attacking you, right?" Another funny thing is that the incident took only a matter of seconds...but like all the incidents I have been involved in, it's like in "Matrix slo-mo"...weird.
Alex, if the facility does not provide the training for it, we are not allowed to use it. PERIOD! EVEN if my life was on the line, and I used techniques not given to me via training by the facility, there'd be a LOT of red tape for me to go through! And instead of being concerned about me returning home to my family, Internal Affairs would be more concerned about the inmate!
Ask Jim and Rex G...
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Chad Posted: Another funny thing is that the incident took only a matter of seconds...but like all the incidents I have been involved in, it's like in "Matrix slo-mo"...weird.
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Chad, as you well know, this is a common phenomenon during high adrenal stress incidents.
Other common occurrances are:
-Auditory Exclusion, or the shutting down of our hearing. I've experienced that.
-The mind races much faster than usual.
-Pain often isn't felt until later because of chemicals that are released (I believe, Cortisol.
-Superhuman Strength.
-Freezing Up; the mind overanalyzes the situation so much so that by the time you react, it's after the fact. Also happened to me once.
-Tunnel Vision...focus on threat or weapons involved. Very dangerous if the bad guy has friends. I've also felt this one.
Adrenaline and the other host of chemicals released create some wierd physical and mental things.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Chad, as you well know, this is a common phenomenon during high adrenal stress incidents.
Other common occurrances are:
-Auditory Exclusion, or the shutting down of our hearing. I've experienced that.
-The mind races much faster than usual.
-Pain often isn't felt until later because of chemicals that are released (I believe, Cortisol.
-Superhuman Strength.
-Freezing Up; the mind overanalyzes the situation so much so that by the time you react, it's after the fact. Also happened to me once.
-Tunnel Vision...focus on threat or weapons involved. Very dangerous if the bad guy has friends. I've also felt this one.
Adrenaline and the other host of chemicals released create some wierd physical and mental things.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
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dialex
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So, can you dodge bullets like Keanu Reeves in Matrix? <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
Aloha jim,
Yes, I experienced that tunnel vision quite a few times...I hate that.
Tonight, I had to assist a fellow officer who was struggling with an inmate who was in a fight with another inmate. Man, it seems like at least for this week, i have been the first to respond. I did a leg sweep, leg locked the inmate, (Get this, the inmate started to "tap" out at this point) and I cuffed him. NOW...am I allowed to do these "techniques" on inmates? NO. But I did it and that's that. I did what I did to get the inmate off my fellow officer. Period.
Uh, Alex...no, no bullet dodging! LOL! Well...at least not yet!
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Yes, I experienced that tunnel vision quite a few times...I hate that.
Tonight, I had to assist a fellow officer who was struggling with an inmate who was in a fight with another inmate. Man, it seems like at least for this week, i have been the first to respond. I did a leg sweep, leg locked the inmate, (Get this, the inmate started to "tap" out at this point) and I cuffed him. NOW...am I allowed to do these "techniques" on inmates? NO. But I did it and that's that. I did what I did to get the inmate off my fellow officer. Period.
Uh, Alex...no, no bullet dodging! LOL! Well...at least not yet!
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Chad, sometimes you just have to do what you have to do, and **** the rules. My hat's off to you for helping your fellow officer (and I'm pretty sure he's happy, too!). It's never fun to get into that kind of stuff, I know that.
Yesterday, on one of our cell blocks, an inmate attacked an officer, punching him in the head several times, and had to be wrestled to the ground and subdued. The officer was able to report back to work today, fortunately.
Also yesterday, two female officers were fired for having....ahem....let's just say they were fraternizing with the inmates a bit too much.
..."We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for whoever has shed his blood with me shall be my brother" ---Shakespeare
Henry V
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Yesterday, on one of our cell blocks, an inmate attacked an officer, punching him in the head several times, and had to be wrestled to the ground and subdued. The officer was able to report back to work today, fortunately.
Also yesterday, two female officers were fired for having....ahem....let's just say they were fraternizing with the inmates a bit too much.
..."We few, we happy few, we band of brothers; for whoever has shed his blood with me shall be my brother" ---Shakespeare
Henry V
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Aloha jim,
Yeah, I know...sometimes "it" just happens. I mean, it all occured in a matter of seconds. BUT, what got me was the sight of my fellow officer trying to subdue this inmate! After that, I dunno if you can call it 'reflex", but it just happened. I also MAINTAINED the hold WHILE placing the cuffs on this inmate.
The officer I assisted went to the ER after filling out all the **** paperwork. Get this, HE's trying to take "credit" for the takedown and claiming injury due to it...CAN YOU BELIEVE this guy?! He's done it before...man alive, what a conscience this guy has!
Ooh...I hear of this kind of thing about CO's getting, well...I heard from some inmates who just came in from Tenessee that they were "ordered" to do *ahem*, extra work duty. Ugh.
Mahalo jim, be safe and I got yer 6.
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Yeah, I know...sometimes "it" just happens. I mean, it all occured in a matter of seconds. BUT, what got me was the sight of my fellow officer trying to subdue this inmate! After that, I dunno if you can call it 'reflex", but it just happened. I also MAINTAINED the hold WHILE placing the cuffs on this inmate.
The officer I assisted went to the ER after filling out all the **** paperwork. Get this, HE's trying to take "credit" for the takedown and claiming injury due to it...CAN YOU BELIEVE this guy?! He's done it before...man alive, what a conscience this guy has!
Ooh...I hear of this kind of thing about CO's getting, well...I heard from some inmates who just came in from Tenessee that they were "ordered" to do *ahem*, extra work duty. Ugh.
Mahalo jim, be safe and I got yer 6.
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Chad, what an ungrateful bastard, trying to take credit for what you did!
At least you know what you did, and hopefully others do, too.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
At least you know what you did, and hopefully others do, too.
Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com
Daywalker, I think it shows a great deal of character and control, to stick to the rules under these circumstances. Sticking to the rules may suck, but I think it makes you a better person,...a much better person than those inmates. I tip my hat to you. Everybody can use force. To show restained is IMHO much more difficult. After all, life is never fair.
I should add, that I hope you also know when to break the rules to protect your life and health.
All the best to both you and Jim
Edited by - HoB on 8/25/2004 4:04:21 PM
I should add, that I hope you also know when to break the rules to protect your life and health.
All the best to both you and Jim
Edited by - HoB on 8/25/2004 4:04:21 PM