Edge up, edge in training...

DAYWALKER · #1

Aloha all,

Just wondering if this form or style of training is still being used? I think the last I read was the Sig Saure Academy was still gripping their knives in this manner...

Mahalo!

God will put you over...if you let Him! John 14: 13,14...try it, it WORKS!

Mr.Skin · #2

Hey Daywalker,

Do a seach here for "pikal" then check the theard title "Reverse Grip: Edge-In (Pikal)/Forward Grip: Edge-Up"

Yes, some people do train it.

Gavin D.

Joe Talmadge · #3

Pakal/pikal (reverse grip edge-in) is undergoing a little renaissance at the moment, at least on the internet. I think the two most visible proponents at the moment are probably Southnarc (lineage through Pekiti Tersia but substantial reality-based modifications) and Ray Floro (lineage through kali ilustrisimo with substantial modifications to form Floro Fighting System).
Southnarc has laid out his basic ideas here: http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp

Check out the last PSP "Expression of Pikal". "ECQ Knife Defense" is a forward-grip edge-up tutorial, also well worth the read. Frankly, everything there is worth a read!

I train in FFS, love the pakal grip.

Joe

Rex G · #4

Legend has it that James Bowie, of Fame in the Deep South and then Texas history, fought in forward grip, edge-in, to develop his formidable reputation with a blade. Long before I thought of ever using a knife as a weapon, I liked the same grip with large folders. I now follow SouthNarc's methodology. Twenty years of street patrol in a big city gave me the background to appreciate his teaching as soon as I saw it.

DAYWALKER · #5

Aloha and mahalo guys...

I was curious as a friend of mine brought it up the other day.

I too have trained in this manner and find it highly effective.

Thanks again and God bless!

God will put you over...if you let Him! John 14: 13,14...try it, it WORKS!

thombrogan · #6

I can't remember his name (maybe when I get home tonight I'll remember), but there's a guy over in Massachusetts who teaches edge-in, forward-grip techniques. I think his name is Michael DeBethencourt, but spelled better.

brownie0486 · #7

You are correct Tom, in name and spelling.

I'll hold on my thoughts re: his skills level however.

Brownie

thombrogan · #8

Ah, MBC and the Baystate...

Let's leave it at saying Mr. DeBethencort trains in that manner.

Otherwise, things may run AMOK! <img src="tongue.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Rex G · #9

A friend kindly reminded me that I do not train exclusively in edge-in techniques, as my previous post in this thread implies. Of course, he is right. I know I am making things harder on myself, but I am dabbling in three systems at once: Bram Frank's Gunting system, Steve Tarani's Karambit system, and SouthNarc's edge-in stuff. Bram's teaching starts at less-than-lethal, and can progress to deadly force as needed. The karambit is a control tool which doubles as a deadly blade, and karambit techniques are favored by my left hand. The karambit stuff also starts at less-than-lethal. SouthNarc's edge-in fighting techniques are for extreme close quarters, and are thrust-oriented and extemely brutal and aggressive, for truly desperate situations. There is a place for all three methodologies in my life at this point. As the Spyderco Gunting is my EDC folder, Bram's teachings are very important. I attended one of Bram's seminars, and hope to train in the Gunting stuff again this summer. Steve Tarani has come to Houston, and I have met him at knife-related functions elsewhere. Steve taught me much about getting on the outside of an opponent, moving to an optimal position, and transitioning to a superior weapon, for which there had been insufficient time in one day with Bram. Luckily, a co-worker with a strong backgound in ju-jutsu attended the Tarani seminars with me, and we train together from time to time. I keep in contact with Bram, Steve, and SouthNarc. So, my friend is correct, in that I train in much more than edge-in techniques.

jbake · #10

Hey Daywalker,

I forgot to ask you, when we were talking earlier - I wondered if you are exclusively Tip up / Edge in or are you also working with Tip down / Edge in?

blastjv · #11

I can't think of any situation in which deadly force is justified that would not be also considered "desperate".

-John

...Knowing is often a barrier to learning...

Rex G · #12

OK, notice I said "truly desperate." An example would be surrounded and so closely pressed by bad guys that articulation of the elbows is prevented, which makes it impossible to go through the relatively complex draw stroke of a hip-carried pistol, but a small fixed-blade knife carried in front of the waist area for a downward draw is still possible, and is used in shart arcing thrusts in an effort to create the distance needed to transition to a superior weapon. When would this happen? Seated in a public transportation situation, standing inside a crowded public gathering, seated inside a van while negotiating a narcotics deal, etc. Deadly force can be applied in a wide range of circumstances, from a sniper's hide to a clinch situation inside a phone booth. The latter is more desperate than the former, from the perspective of the one using deadly force. I hope this clarifies the adjective "desperate" as used in my above post.

brownie0486 · #13

Reg:

Are you sure thats an adjective? It might be an adverb.

Just kidding--------Hope all is well with you in Tx. sir.

Sigs academy defensive knife training was being taught for a few years, until a few years ago, by Mike DeBethencourt who was enamored with pakal methods of knife defense. Mike has moved on, I'm not sure if they have a defensive knife instructor presently or not at this time.

Brownie

argyll · #14

There is a new article by Ralph Mroz on deBethencourt and knife training at SIG up on http://www.realfighting.com

Best regards,

Argyll

Qui non est hodie cras minus aptus erit -- Ovid (He who is not prepared today will be less so tomorrow)

Edited by - Argyll on 7/19/2004 12:30:58 PM

Rex G · #15

Howdy Brownie! It is hot, humid, and smoggy here in SE Texas these days. How is NE? BTW, I hope anyone reading my previous post would know I was talking about UNDERCOVER POLICE/AGENT narcotics deals. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> I saw a good demo of forward grip, edge-in/up, and the setting was a UC dope buy, using four chairs to represent van seats, with three bad guys against one UC guy. No, not an everyday situation for most of us, thankfully.