Loki's Pakal idea

[thombrogan]

Whether he's the Norse god of mischief or the god of Norse mischief, Loki wrote over at the BFC Spyderco board asking Spyderco to make a folder that could be dedicated for use with the pakal techniques (reverse grip/edge in) of some martial disciplines (Pekiti Tirsia and Kalis Ilustrisimo in particular). Some of the posters there suggested a folder that would excel at techniques based on that type of grip, but that would also have use as an EDC folder.



Perhaps, if Sal and the crew still desire a testing ground for D2, this could be it?



As a folder with a small-to-medium, thin blade, D2 hardened to Rc 61-62 may be just the ticket for civilian edge retention as well as being sharp enough should an unscripted MBC situation develop.



What say the people who actually know what they're talking about?

[SouthNarc]

I think if we can do it right it'll work for just about any grip. As far as steel goes I don't really know. What do you guys think?

[thorin hammer]

Except for the Ronnin there seems to be a lack of blades that can be comfortably used with the blade in. I would like to see more folders that I could use with handle in the normal position but with the blade facing me.
The Zowda (spelling could be wrong) model is a great example of being able to have the blade facing either direction. I just wish I could get my hands on one…


Some laws permit what honor does not. Got life? If you don't, get one at www.gotlife.com Spyderco Collector #14

[Joe Talmadge]

There's a whole bunch of steels that would work great. Thombrogan's idea of using D-2 is a fine one, especially if the D-2 is left hard (as Thom suggested). Spyderco's stainless steels, VG-10 and S30V, would both be very capable as well. D-2 pushes you up in strength versus both of them, and in toughness versus VG-10.

I'm hoping you guys will go for bleeding-edge performance at the edge, like a full flat grind...

Joe



Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 6/10/2004 5:02:23 PM

[thombrogan]

Joe,

With a hard enough steel (in the stainless world, that'll be D2 these days), I think that a high hollow grind on a very thin blade would be even better. Alvin Johnson's fixed blades come to mind. The edge and a little behind the bevel would be flat or even slightly convex, but a little bit behind the edge would be hollow ground.

Here's my attempt to draw it:
<img src="http://www.tntbrogan.com/images/stoo.gif">

This would leave a flat, ripping grind at the edge while reducing some of the binding associated with full flat grinds. Maybe an easier option would be to use a saber flat grind like on the the Delica.



Edited by - thombrogan on 6/10/2004 8:53:46 PM

[Joe Talmadge]

Thom, with the aside that I think that minor differences in steel types or grind types will be vastly less important than the overall blade and handle design, I think that high hollow grind is a perfectly fine answer as well.

[thombrogan]

Joe, I like minutia when it helps with the big picture. Most every steel will work as will most every grind. The type of grind I'm hocking is one I've seen used on short blades meant for skinning and pairing. Should dead pigs fly or should malicious turnips roll into your 'corto' range, I wouldn't want the knife to bind into a single cut. Yeppers, the Janich comma-cut will matter more, but every bit counts.

[Rex G]

I like S30V and D2 steels. The Yojimbo will be a good Pakal/Pikal blade, and the Gunting, my current EDC, feels good to me in any grip, including Pikal. A folder specifically designed for Pikal will certainly appeal to me, especially if a trainer is also produced. The fixed-blade Ronin is not bad as a Pikal knife, but would benefit from a slightly longer handle, IMHO. I look forward to seeing what Sal will offer us!

[thombrogan]

Looks like it will be an exciting collaboration. So many FMA players and other MBC-users have added great thoughts to the design (I'm none of those, so I threw in my awful thoughts over here).

I'd enjoy seeing this puppy come to life with a nested Compression Lock, G10 scales, and a straight or almost straight blade in D2 ran at HRC 61-63. Hopefully, the D2, despite being new to Spyderco, will help keep costs down.

[Joe Talmadge]

No doubt, that would be outstanding as you spec'ed. I'd like the edge to be straight, but angle upwards so the point is more towards the centerline.

I think my main concern is blade size, I'd strongly prefer it be near 4" or at least 3.5", but I seem to be in the minority.

[Luvbug]

Count me in with the minority "bigger --3.5-4"-- is better" crowd. The only thing which has stayed me from getting a Ronin, and only regret I have in the Yojimbo design, is a shared lack of size. Seems to me that a dedicated SD knife should be pushing the 4" zone.

With regard to steel types, I pretty open. <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> has never dissapointed me in that regard. I guess my preference would be either VG-10 or S30V, only because I have had experience with these two fine steels, and have yet to handle D-2.

Edited to remove unintended smilie and to share my admittedly ignorant take on steel.

Edited by - Luvbug on 6/18/2004 8:17:38 AM

[thombrogan]

There should probably be two knives:

A >3.5" model and a <3" Little Big Knife version.

Thinking further on the steels, locks, and costs, maybe G10, nested liner lock, and AUS-8A blade made and assembled in Taipei would be more affordable than a D2 version assembled in the USA.

[Joe Talmadge]

Thom, if a pakal knife gets enough sales volume that Spyderco can justify a little-big knife and actual-big knife version, we'll all be in hog-heaven!

[RQ]

As regards blade length:-

Seems notable that the definitive fixed blade pikal knife on the market at the moment, the shivworks disciple, "only" has a 3.5" blade. Similar knives are even smaller.

I don't believe a 3"/3.5" blade would be too little, in view of the above. In fact, nice compact dimensions would contribute to this being a nice 'politically correct' EDC option.

The short blade would be more than adequate for using the tip primarily, and edge for shearing pulling cuts. Read elsewhere that someone thought that a longer blade would be necessary for controlling/trapping limbs, but IMO this is gravy not stuff the design must definitley enable. After all, Pikal means 'to rip', not 'to control' ?

I suppose ultimately I'd just like a folding disciple with G10 grips and an MBC rated lock of whatever kind. VG10 steel would be OK with me.


Edited by - RQ on 6/26/2004 8:42:44 AM

[Joe Talmadge]

'course, Ray Floro's knives, which are just as "definitive", are much much longer. I think the majority agree that under 4" is perfectly workable and reasonable for pakal. The question is, what's carryable? Southnarc's blade length choices seem to be in part a function of what people can comfortably carry. But it's easier to carry a larger folder than it is a larger fixed blade -- witness the fact that you'll find the majority of us carry 3.5"-4" folders every day, and the increasing trends towards folders with >4" blades.

So, given that carryability isn't really an issue for folders with blades lengths of 4", and that there's absolutely no disadvantage to having a 4" blade, why not go towards the larger size? A 3.75" blade would really sing.

For myself, I tend to feel that it's handle size more than anything else that makes a folder less-carryable. Provided the blade-to-handle ratio isn't terrible, a blade closer to 4" would make more people happy, IMO, without sacrificing carryability or effectiveness one whit.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see a 2.95" blade pakal for near-universal legal carry, and just-under-4" blade version for legal-many-places, ultimate pakal folder.

Joe

Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 6/26/2004 11:53:13 AM

[thombrogan]

Another thought I had this afternoon was this:

Deep pocket carry with an Elishewitz/Ballpoint pen-style pocket clip and the pommel shaped to look like the cap of a large-sized, expensive pen.

Thom Brogan "I am a warrior and a poet
a warrior because anyway you need a living
and a poet because eventually you had to die." -Jean-Manuel Moreau

[Bo Smith]

I said it on BFC, and I'll say it again here, for emphasis: make sure the thing is ambidexterous, that means a clip that can go on the LEFT or RIGHT side.

Spyderco has ignored the left-handed user with too many of its high end models to list. What's the point of putting a reversible clip on only one side of the knife?

I really want to see a dedicated MBC rated Pakal folder, and trainer; but, if it's not lefty friendly, count me out.

-Bo

[thombrogan]

Welcome to the Forum, Bo!

The list of ambidextrous ClipIts is steadily growing, especially in the high-end market. For expample, both ATR's, the Chinook II, the Dodo, the Spyderfly, and the Yojimbo are ambidextrous and the planned redesign of the Li'l Temperance will also be ambidextrously clipped. In the midrange market, most of the knives have reversible clips, including the new Salsa with the black handles.

Patience and persistant purchases pave the path.

<i>forgot to add the Spyderfly <img src="sad.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0> </i>

-Thom Brogan <a href="http://www.tntbrogan.com" target="_blank">Pictures</a> of our daughter, Cynthia

Edited by - thombrogan on 7/29/2004 9:04:44 AM