what is MBC, can I see an example?

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
skcusloa
Member
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

what is MBC, can I see an example?

Postby skcusloa » Sun May 16, 2004 12:00 am

anyone got any videos I can download or something?

Qship
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby Qship » Sun May 16, 2004 8:43 pm

You can buy videos at:

www.paladin-press.com

Search on Janich

Qship

User avatar
skcusloa
Member
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Postby skcusloa » Mon May 17, 2004 12:23 pm

so it's basically playing ninja with a little folding knife?

User avatar
4 s ter
Member
Posts: 2056
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario Canada

Postby 4 s ter » Mon May 17, 2004 1:07 pm

I'm sure there are many who would disagree with your characterization of the MBC program.

With all due respect, you make it sound like a childish game with an inconsequential weapon. I suggest to you that it is neither of those.

David

"Not all who wander are lost"

User avatar
Mr.Skin
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Twin Cities Area, MN USA

Postby Mr.Skin » Mon May 17, 2004 1:49 pm

Hey skcusloa,

MBC is not "playing ninja". Paladin Press carries wide range of produces. Many are very good and informative, from well respected people in their respective arts. Mike Janich's Fighting Folders, Advanced Fighting Folders and Mastering Fighting Folders cover the majority of the MBC course material. Mike's website www.martialbladecraft.net also gives a description of each MBC class.


Gavin D.

Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Postby Michael Janich » Mon May 17, 2004 3:48 pm

Dear skcusloa:

If you're really interested in learning more about the MBC curriculum, please consult my web site www.martialbladecraft.com and look carefully at the course descriptions. They describe the program in considerable detail.

If you need a more concise explanation, MBC is a self-defense system that focuses on the use of small, concealable knives. It concentrates on disabling an attacker by cutting the portions of his anatomy that allow him to wield a weapon and remain mobile and does not promote the exclusive use of lethal force, as many other knife programs do.

There are more detached opinions of the MBC program available via reviews posted by MBC alumni. To find these, search on this forum and bladeforums.com. If you just want to make ninja jokes, MBC's probably not your cup of tea.

Stay safe,


mike j

Qship
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby Qship » Mon May 17, 2004 8:32 pm

Ninjitsu is a Japanese discipline much distorted by popular movies.

MBC is loosely based on, but not limited to, escrima, which comes from the Philippines. The main outside influence on escrima is Spanish sword and dagger play, the legacy of a long period of hostilities between Spain and the Philippines. About half the terms used are Spanish and the remainder are primarily Tagalog.

Escrima was popularized by Bruce Lee, who learned it from Danny Inosanto, one of his senior students. It is the weapons system Lee used in his movies, and became the unofficial weapons system of Jeet Kune Do. Escrima is a complete system, and includes empty hands, long weapons (staff, spear), medium weapons (sticks, swords), short weapons (knives and various impact weapons), and empty hands.

MBC concentrates on short knife, since that is the knife you will be most likely to have when trouble comes. MBC emphasizes disarming and incapacitating techniques. It is not so much fighting with a knife as fighting when a knife is one of the tools, and skills, you have available. The intent is to keep the practitioner alive, not to role play.

Qship

User avatar
skcusloa
Member
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Postby skcusloa » Mon May 17, 2004 10:08 pm

If I was worried enough about being attacked, that I practiced to use my pocket knife to protect me, I'd just buy a gun.

Really, if you were being mugged and you slashed the guy that was mugging you up with a pocket knife, and you let him live, he would probably find a way to sue you. The cops would look at you like you were a nut. A gun is easy to explain, they usually don't live, and you have more of a chance at being able to ask them to back off.

JBRO1
Member
Posts: 7
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: USA

Postby JBRO1 » Mon May 17, 2004 10:47 pm

skcusloa,

Howdy.

I know I'm going to regret this, but I'm not sleeping real well, right now, so:

I'm a law enforcement officer. Have been one for nearly twenty years, and I'll thank you not to speak for me or any of my brother and sister officers in an attempt to take a crack at Mr. Janich's program.

I've investigated a hundred or so cuttings and like everything else, I never go into the job with a preconceived notion of who's right or wrong based on the weaponry used in the combat. Pull a knife, pull a gun...doesn't matter too much to me - both make the circumstances a deadly force situation. Probably the guy with the knife has a better reason to have the tool on him. And, if you're thinking about toting a firearm, remember, knives are contact weapons, bullets find a terminal resting place, and whether or not those resting places are in an assailant, you are still responsible for them.


Mr. Janich's MBC is the most logical and well taught knife program available today - and I say that as an officer survival intructor tasked with teaching edged weapons response and defense.

By the way, and this will give EVERYONE a chuckle, I have a nidan in togakure ryu ninjutsu, and it ain't nothing like MBC.

Be safe...and maybe a tad more respectful.

Ethan

Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Postby Michael Janich » Tue May 18, 2004 6:45 am

Dear JBRO1 and Qship:

Thank you for your support and your well-reasoned posts. Since I know that both of you had decades of training in other arts before becoming involved in MBC, your words are high praise indeed.

To skcusloa, if you're not convinced that MBC is for you, that's fine. As for carrying a gun, I do, and I've worked hard to develop my skills with it as well. I also understand the circumstances that favor its use, those that favor the use of a knife, and those that are best handled with empty hands and I continue to refine my skills in all three disciplines.

Stay safe,


mike j

brownie0486
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby brownie0486 » Tue May 18, 2004 6:47 am

skcusloa:

As JBRO1 has so spoken, I won't presume to answer for others relative their experience in MBC bladecraft, I'll just give you an opinion based on 14 years of defensive knife training with several top instructors around the country as well as having been an instructor to LE and civilians through the S+W training division in that timeframe.

Your astatement that "If I was worried enough about being attacked, that I practiced to use my pocket knife to protect me, I'd just buy a gun." alludes to the idea you carry that you do not need something to defend yourself at anytime past or present.

That may be a little naieve on your part, but you have every right to believe nothing will ever happen to you where you may need to defend yourself with anything you have at hand when that time potentionally comes.

You have the right to play the odds that you will never need to defend yourself, in fact many more play that end of the odds game than study various types of defense involving the knife, the gun, a stick, or anything unconventional they may use and find within reach if and when that time comes in theor life when they are threatened with deadly force or serious bodily harm in some manner.

Having studied under Mr. Janich for a weekend with the MBC 1+2 course a few months ago in Ohio, my take on his defensive knife training falls into the same realm of mindset that I have where use of the knife defensively is concerned.

Primarily there are two camps of thought processes with the forum knife community which can roughly be extrapolated into society in general where weapons systems/platforms and mindset are concerned with individuals.

Those who believe if you are threatened with grave danger or deadly force that you have an obligation to go full out and attempt to cause injuries to the attacker which will in all likelihood end in his death.

The other side of the camp believes, at least to some degree, that not all violent encounters need to be dealt with in that manner, preferring to train to disable the attacker/aggressor but bio-mechanically cutting the perp where he will be unable to continue to threaen you or others initially if the opportunity presents itself.

The techniques that Mr. Janich shows in his MBC are for when you have the opportunity to defend yourself with the folder you carry clipped to your pocket daily [ which many thousands presently do across the globe, not just here in the US ], and you then have enough knowledge that if the situation presents itself you may "defang" the attacker/aggressor of his weapon through cutting various areas on the body while maintaining your own relative safety while under attack.

Is it the end all/be all of street defense? I would not think so, that would require one to have a working knowledge of empty hand, stick, gun, rifle, unconventional weapons of opportunity through awareness of ones surroundings and what may be available to use at the time, and perhaps some flexible weapons thrown in for good measure.

You comment leads one to believe you do not carry a gun presently as you do not believe that you will ever be threatened with bodily harm or death from some nefarious individual. As to whether you carry a knife, straight or folder, with the idea you may defend with it one day, I have no idea, but my guess from your statements is that you may carry a knife of some type but have never realized the potential of the knife to defend yourself.

I won't presume to guess your situation and circumstances by which you live or not live in relative saftey and obscurity as you pass others in public places daily.

If you believe you are not in jeapoardy of being a victim of a violent crime at anytime, so be it but understand there are those among the masses who do feel the need to learn how to depoly and use a folding knife we carry daily clipped to our pockets to defend ourselves.

History has shown that people are killed while being mugged, robbed, raped, etc and in lieu of becoming a willing victim, there are those among us who would rather have the knowledge of how to defend ourselves with the tools we carry about our person on a daily basis.

Seeking the knowledge of how to defend ones life or that of others lives in the case of LE's/Security professionals is not only prudent but shows forethought to potential encounters of the worst kind.

To that end, we train to defend ourselves with objects we carry daily, like the folding knives clipped to the pockets of our pants.

Knowledge of how to defend oneself is always going to be better than no knowledge at all if and when the time comes to defend ones person.

Those who seek the knowledge have forethought, those who do not can more easily become prey to the predators who walk among us in society.

I'll try to not be the latter if at all costs by training to be the former. You might consider that thought process further before making statements about playing ninja with small folders.

You may just be very surprised how easily you can be cold forever with a small folder and one who knows how to use it to it's full advantage against another.

The MBC program, as developed by Mr. Janich and sponsored by Spyderco and Sal Glesser attempts to address the needs of those who seek the knowledge of baldecraft. I might add that it is my opinion that Mike Janich brings his extensive experience in the real world to his MBC seminars for those of us who would rather "know" through training than "guess" what might be possible in a deadly encounter if attacked or threatened.

Hope that answers any questions you may have on MBC. Now if we could only get you to attend a seminar with Mike Janich, perhaps you could also become a "ninja".

I don't take the ninja comment negatively. In fact just the opposite. They were warriors who trained hard with all types of weapons and were as prepared as possible for anything they may run into.

BTW--The gun is not the end all, be all to your potential self defense. That statement does border on the naieve and does not show your knowledge of the real world favorably.

Brownie

suburban cowboy
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: AZ USA

Postby suburban cowboy » Tue May 18, 2004 12:44 pm

Brownie,
Succinct, as always my friend.

Mike M

User avatar
Jimd
Member
Posts: 3245
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Allentown, PA USA

Postby Jimd » Tue May 18, 2004 2:27 pm

skcusloa,
Often, the best way to approach a self-defense tool system is a layered approach. Different levels give you different options.

Combining a knife, gun, and perhaps, pepper spray gives you the option of different levels of force for you to use.

Here are a few advantages that a knife offers:
1. They're quiet; using one won't wake the entire neighborhood.
2. They don't need reloading like a pistol.
3. As was already pointed out, you won't kill three innocent pedestrians a block down the street if you miss, like you could with a firearm.
4. Using a knife allows you to choose the level of lethality that you apply.

What am I basing my opinions on? Fourteen years as a law enforcement officer working inside the nation's fourth largest prison.

I've witnessed dozens of knife attacks, and been involved in several myself. Unfortunately for me, I've been there, done that when it comes to knife attacks. I have a very good grasp at what works and what does not.

I've seen the aftermath of more knife attacks than I can recall, and I've also seen people killed with knives. I've come very close to being stabbed/cut myself on numerous occasions.

I'd suggest that you get some quality training, expand your mind a bit (or, in your case, a LOT), and talk to some people who've done it for real.


Sniper -- One Shot, One Kill Email: ST8PEN01@aol.com

User avatar
skcusloa
Member
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Postby skcusloa » Tue May 18, 2004 3:14 pm

Ok, both of you officers are the most logical one's I've ever met. The ones around here don't live up to your standards. See, you people are looking at it in a biased way. You love your ninja knife fighting hobby/lifestyle/career and you have every right to. But every example you give is in the best case scenario for you and the worst case scenario for a gun owner.

I'd pick a gun because, what if I come up against a person with a gun? Which is the worst case scenario. What if I don't have time to learn the secrets of the ninja pocket knife? Anyone can use a gun. Sure you have to get a permit to carry one, and it's a larger investment, but if you buy a high quality used pistol and keep it nice, you'll be able to sell it for around what you got it for. You don't have to shoot a gun to get people to back off most of the time. If you come up to lysol, the three hundred pound guy who just got out of prison, he's going to laugh at your knife. He'll take a gun a little bit more seriously.

MBC:

semi cheap- can't argue

light- can't argue

silent- I'm sorry but if I am in a life threatening situation, I want everyone in the world to know, this is only an advantage to the true pocket knife ninja.

reason to carry- tell that to one of the Okmulgee police officers and he'll arrest you for public intox, in fact, if you tell him anything but, yes sir, no sir, he'll probably arrest you for public intox.. (again I'm looking at it like you folks, in a biased way, I'm sure if one of you officers searched me and found a delica, you'd probably have a nice conversation with me and we'd become buddies)

Choice of lethality- sorry but any moron that is robbing people on the streets needs to meet his end so we don't waste money on making him a better criminal by sending him
to prison...

Reload- I'd buy something that would accept high capacity magazines, and learn how to reload fast, and aim well. I can't really imagine reloading while being mugged. I can only imagine reloading while facing a group....



No I do not carry a pistol. Yes I do carry a delica everywhere I go.

Most of the situations I feel could become dangerous in my everyday life, a car would probably be the best weapon.

Yes I believe in weapons of opportunity. I will do anything I can to keep an attacker from even touching me. I'll throw everything in the room at someone.

A knife has no distance. If you throw it (ninja) you disarm yourself. A pistol has some reach to it.

I see nothing wrong with MBC. I just don't see it as a logical form of modern self defense. Martial arts are great as a hobby and they might become very useful. But, I would never rely on them getting me out of a life and death situation as much as I'd rely on a pistol.

Qship
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby Qship » Tue May 18, 2004 4:07 pm

skcusloa,

I have concealed weapons permits from Colorado, Florida, and New York. With reciprocity, I can legally carry a sidearm in about half the United States. Within those states, there are restrictions on where I can carry. In the rest of the states, and outside the country, carrying a pistol will send me to jail. Most places, I can legally obtain, and carry, an effective knife.

I have taken handgun training from very good people, I am an NRA instructor myself, and I carry a 1911 pattern Colt .45 semi-automatic. At handshake distance, I would just as soon have a knife. I always carry a knife.

Before you jump to the conclusion that Mr. Janich is a stranger to firearms, do two things. Check his background on his web site, then do a google search on Colonel Rex Applegate who, together with Mr. Janich, wrote a definitive text on close quarter pistolcraft. Available at Paladin Press.

Many of the people on the list are high speed, low drag, and I have learned a great deal from them. You can, too.

Mas Ayoob gives an excellent course on the legal aspects of the judicious use of lethal force. I suggest it would be a better investment for you than a handgun, or an MBC course. Your misconceptions about the use of lethal force are almost certainly more of a threat to your well being than any mugger.

Qship

Qship
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby Qship » Tue May 18, 2004 4:15 pm

Double post deleted. Qship

Edited by - qship on 5/18/2004 4:17:35 PM

brownie0486
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby brownie0486 » Tue May 18, 2004 4:22 pm

skcusloa:

You admit you do not carry a gun, and do carry a Delica daily. Which will you have with you when someone attempts to rob you, or harm you in some way? Why of course, you'll have that Delica.

How's that saying go again? A bird in the hand [ or in this case a small folder ] is worth ?.

That gun you don't own and don't carry will do you no good at all in a lethal encounter will it?

On the other hand, that knife could possibly come into play quite easily if you were being choked from behind. You could access that small folder and cut the arm holding you could you not?

Would that make you a ninja if you used it thusly to defend yourself? Hardly, but it could make you a survivor of the encounter instead of suffering major injuries or death.

You speak as anyone here has alluded to the fact they think the knife is an end all, be all to defense. It is not. But as Jim mentioned above, it's the layering of various implements you have with you that may save the bacon one day.

Throw the knife, no one mentioned that either from the replies I've read. No, it will not solve all crimes where a gun is used to intimidate or harm you. The knife may certainly remain on the pocket and you may never get to use it to defend yourself in those scenarios, thats true. That does not, however, negate the fact that people who have some training and carry a folder with possible defense in mind would not be able to use it to their advantage under certain circumstances. Again, back to that saying of a "bird in the hand" rings a bell here. If you don;t have the training, don't have the desire to get some training with a knife, no big deal to us here. You have your choices to make in life and we have ours, to each his own as they say.

If you don't have the time to learn the "secrets of the ninja pocket knife", you most assuredly won't have the time to learn the gun either. Not to any great effect anyway.

It's all about priorities in ones life. Mine have always been to go home at the end of the night no matter what mess I got into whether it was my fault or someone elses. To give me a better chance of surviving potentially lethal encounters on the streets where I have worked for nie on 30 years, I have sought the training in weapons platforms such as the gun, knife, stick, flexible weapons, unconventional weapons of opportunity, etc. for quite a few decades now.

Do you not feel that I have a better chance of surviving than one who has not taken the time to train in these disciplines?

You state "any moron that is robbing people on the streets needs to meet his end so we don't waste money on making him a better criminal by sending him to prison..."

Though I realize there are many with that same view, the ones who have carred that idea to fruition when the opportunity presented itself have often found themselves in prison for committing their own crimes after being assaulted or robbed as lethal force is not always warranted or necessary to escape grave bodily injury or death.

Do you honestly believe that you, carrying a gun could access that gun in time once you were being robbed at knife point or gun point to stop the action of the perp? I hope not as that would show us here that you hold the gun as some cure all to crime being stopped an the answer to all your potential needs.

People like myself who have carried on the job or off duty for that matter realize in the real world the gun is not the answer to every problem where perps are concerned and that you may not even get the chance to use it under many circumstances even if you have it with you.

There are many elements to ones safety, the gun is one potential, the knife, stick and unconventional weapons are others. Thats why Jim stated having some knowledge of how to utilize the various tools at different times is important.

For the ife of me, I can't see how your car will solve your needs for self defense all the time unless you never get out of the vehicle from your driveway until you return home sometime later. If you walk the streets at all, you are exposing yourself to potential dangers, maybe you can't see them, haven't the ability to recognize them as potential threats, but rest assured they are there always and waiting to bite you when you least expect them to ocurr.

Can you see the knife as a means to rob another? Then you should be able to see that the knife represents potential lethal force upon your person. With the training, you might be able to recognize the knife as a legitimate means to self defense, not in every sceanrio, but then you only have to have it, use it with the training you have received in it's use once to be the benefactor of an edged weapon possibly helping you survive the streets.

When you were playing ball on the fields as a kid, you practiced and got better. No practice, you degressed or got no batter. Practice the defensive knife techniques and you may just save your own bacon one day.

Don't train with the knife and your chances of survival with that particular weapons platform under attack are about as good as you becoming the next splendid splinter.

It's that simple. Train for the possibles and hope you never have to use it thusly. Layer your approach to personal safety, have a few tricks in that bag and one day you may just pull a rabbit from your hat and hand another his*****when the tables are turned.

Brownie

mac_heath
Member
Posts: 112
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Arizona USA

Postby mac_heath » Tue May 18, 2004 4:29 pm

skcusloa is at best ignorant and at worst a troll. Guns and knives are not necessarily and either/or dichotomy as he implies. Each tool has its place.

Read his screenname backwards for a window into what we're dealing with.

Would a mod please close this thread and stop feeding the troll?

brownie0486
Member
Posts: 46
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am

Postby brownie0486 » Tue May 18, 2004 4:40 pm

I just wanted to add here that many people who train with the knife also carry firearms daily when going about their normal days routines.

They train with and carry a knife in conjunction to the gun. That layering idea again. They understand a gun is not always a viable option and may choose to use the knife in lieu of the gun for any number of reasons.

Are we to believe you think everyone who carries a gun doesn't have need for a knife as well at certain times? Others who live it for real daily would argue that point endlessly against the idea. We can't be all wrong here can we?

I know with the training I have, it has been money and time well spent. I personally have over 10K in gun training alone over 30 years and still train hard with the blades as well.

I'm sure there are others who are in a similiar scenario as well. They understand the need to not use the gun as a crutch for all potentials, those who do find themselves in bad times quite often. Often too late and a dollar short.

Don't cut yourself short [ pun imtended ].

Brownie

Michael Janich
Member
Posts: 1705
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
Location: Longmont, CO USA
Contact:

Postby Michael Janich » Tue May 18, 2004 8:42 pm

Thanks to everyone who contributed rational input to this thread. It's comforting to know that there are well-trained, reasonable people out there on our side. The fact that I've had the honor to train with many of you also makes me feel good in that I've chosen my friends wisely.

As for skcusloa's comments, they remind me of a saying I once heard: "The problem with wrestling with pigs is that you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it." With that in mind, I don't plan to devote any more time to skcusloa's comments. I'll just be content with the fact that we (the rational ones) were right all along...

Stay safe,


mike j


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], cooterbaldwin, Craiger12, darkjabroni, Jurphaas, Majestic-12 [Bot], Wright.88 and 61 guests