Advantages of D2?
Advantages of D2?
I have been looking at some knives with D2 steel, and never having owned one, was wondering if anybody could give me an idea, why D2 seems so much liked, especially among the custom knife makers. How does it compare to VG-10 and S30V? Aside from the fact that it is not as rust proof, which I really couldn't care less about.
Don't listen to me but D2 has been my evil steel nemesis since I got my Lightfoot Max Velocity. I can't get it to shave like I can my <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>'s.
I got the Lightfoot and love it for EDC but I like my EDC's SHARP and it has fallen out of the rotation lately because it has been giving be problems. I hear that once it is sharp it will stay that way for a long time. Can't wait to get it sharp...then wait. I think with some patience(have had little lately<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) D2 would be one of my favourites, but till I learn the "knack" I just keep on truckin. Hope that sort of helped. Take Care<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"everything else is just a jeep"
I got the Lightfoot and love it for EDC but I like my EDC's SHARP and it has fallen out of the rotation lately because it has been giving be problems. I hear that once it is sharp it will stay that way for a long time. Can't wait to get it sharp...then wait. I think with some patience(have had little lately<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>) D2 would be one of my favourites, but till I learn the "knack" I just keep on truckin. Hope that sort of helped. Take Care<img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
"everything else is just a jeep"
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thombrogan
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D2 has a very high wear-resistance (which helps edge-retention when cutting soft materials, but makes it a bear to reprofile); can be run harder than most stainless steels (which again leads to higher edge-retention when cutting most all materials); is available from a wide variety of manufacturers (making its price modest and ensuring that there's some form of D2 for everyone); and it can be heat-treated like most every other stainless cutlery steel. Its very high wear-resistance and its hardness make it difficult for many of us to sharpen and its brittleness makes it hard to keep sharp when misused; but when given a thin edge and not used in place of a gardening rake, it has great edge retention and can often take a durable edge at lower angles than softer steels.
D2, though, takes longer to sharpen than S30V, M2, VG10, 154CM, 440C, and AUS-8A on a Sharpmaker.
D2, though, takes longer to sharpen than S30V, M2, VG10, 154CM, 440C, and AUS-8A on a Sharpmaker.
I have no S30V or VG-10 blades, but I did test comparative performance between D2 and 440V/S60V, 806D2 against older Military 440V/S60V.
Both blades were identically profiled and edged. Both performed newsprint push-cuts with barely a whisper before testing. Testing consisted of pointing an equal number of 1" X 2" pine tree stakes (I think it was 4 stakes each).
After pointing the stakes, newsprint push-cutting performance was slightly reduced in exactly the same degree, with no damage to either blade. Identical performance.
An advantage might be claimed for the 440V/S60V blade in stain-resistance.
Both blades were identically profiled and edged. Both performed newsprint push-cuts with barely a whisper before testing. Testing consisted of pointing an equal number of 1" X 2" pine tree stakes (I think it was 4 stakes each).
After pointing the stakes, newsprint push-cutting performance was slightly reduced in exactly the same degree, with no damage to either blade. Identical performance.
An advantage might be claimed for the 440V/S60V blade in stain-resistance.
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Joe Talmadge
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>After pointing the stakes, newsprint push-cutting performance was slightly reduced in exactly the same degree, with no damage to either blade. Identical performance. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
gud4u describes above his pine whittling test of 440V versus D2. That's a great example to start with, thanks for posting it gud4u. That test was probably stressing wear resistance a bit and hardness (strength) a bit. I'm surprised D-2 didn't beat 440V by some margin, but if the edge on the 440V knife was thick enough, it wouldn't have mattered. At some point you could thin the edges down enough where D-2's vastly superior strength would make it pull away from 440V.
But in real-life use, though, I find that for a folder, blade hardness (and to a lesser degree, toughness) is probably a bit more important than pure wear resistance. Had gud4u done a test that put significant stress on the blade, he would have seen D2 outperform 440V quite handily.
Which brings us around to understanding the strengths of D2, rather than performance on one particular test. That way, you can make decisions for yourself. If you usually find wear-resistance is most important, you might lean one way, but if toughness or hardness become more important, you might lean another.
thombrogan mentions D2's brittleness, but it's important to put that into context. D2 is brittle compared to other tool steels like O-1. It is not brittle compared to VG-10 or ATS-34, in fact, it's tougher than those steels at the same hardness, and more wear-resitant than either. Or, again as thom pointed out, if it's wear-resistance and strength that you need most, you can run D-2 harder than you can any stainless steel.
So depending on how you cook it, D-2 has all kinds of trade-offs. Do you want high hardness (I think most folder uses will be well-served by this)? In that case, D-2 can be run several points higher than S30V is being run, and a couple points higher than VG-10 or ATS-34. Are you willing to drop down in hardness a bit? Then you can run D-2 in the ATS-34/VG-10 hardness range, but D-2 provides you with more wear resistance and more toughness (i.e., it's a straight win except for rust resistance), and it will still be harder than S30V (though S30V will have more wear-resistance).
I think the great advantage of steels like D-2 and M-2 are that they can be run a bit harder than most stainless steels, without sacrificing toughness (versus high-end stainless) and with excellent wear resistance. If you're going to run D-2 or M-2 softer (say, 59-60 Rc), then they still have advantages over something like ATS-34 or VG-10, but it becomes less clear that this is a better choice than S30V.
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 4/30/2004 10:26:35 AM
gud4u describes above his pine whittling test of 440V versus D2. That's a great example to start with, thanks for posting it gud4u. That test was probably stressing wear resistance a bit and hardness (strength) a bit. I'm surprised D-2 didn't beat 440V by some margin, but if the edge on the 440V knife was thick enough, it wouldn't have mattered. At some point you could thin the edges down enough where D-2's vastly superior strength would make it pull away from 440V.
But in real-life use, though, I find that for a folder, blade hardness (and to a lesser degree, toughness) is probably a bit more important than pure wear resistance. Had gud4u done a test that put significant stress on the blade, he would have seen D2 outperform 440V quite handily.
Which brings us around to understanding the strengths of D2, rather than performance on one particular test. That way, you can make decisions for yourself. If you usually find wear-resistance is most important, you might lean one way, but if toughness or hardness become more important, you might lean another.
thombrogan mentions D2's brittleness, but it's important to put that into context. D2 is brittle compared to other tool steels like O-1. It is not brittle compared to VG-10 or ATS-34, in fact, it's tougher than those steels at the same hardness, and more wear-resitant than either. Or, again as thom pointed out, if it's wear-resistance and strength that you need most, you can run D-2 harder than you can any stainless steel.
So depending on how you cook it, D-2 has all kinds of trade-offs. Do you want high hardness (I think most folder uses will be well-served by this)? In that case, D-2 can be run several points higher than S30V is being run, and a couple points higher than VG-10 or ATS-34. Are you willing to drop down in hardness a bit? Then you can run D-2 in the ATS-34/VG-10 hardness range, but D-2 provides you with more wear resistance and more toughness (i.e., it's a straight win except for rust resistance), and it will still be harder than S30V (though S30V will have more wear-resistance).
I think the great advantage of steels like D-2 and M-2 are that they can be run a bit harder than most stainless steels, without sacrificing toughness (versus high-end stainless) and with excellent wear resistance. If you're going to run D-2 or M-2 softer (say, 59-60 Rc), then they still have advantages over something like ATS-34 or VG-10, but it becomes less clear that this is a better choice than S30V.
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 4/30/2004 10:26:35 AM
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thombrogan
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WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Patience pays off my fellow knuts. My Max Veloctiy is shaving sharp now. Had too much frre time to waste last night so while I watched the Leafs win last night I took my time and got the MV SHARP. Back in my pocket it goes with my Endura of course. Take Care!!!
"everything else is just a jeep"
"everything else is just a jeep"
I think as soon as my pre-order of the Yojimbo (together with a Dragonfly and a Calypso Jr.) has arrived I am going to take a very close look at the BM 806D2. I've bought one for a friend (he paid) and even though it had no appeal to me from the pictures, I liked it quite a bit when I held it in my hand. A little large but VERY smooth. I'd love a D2 Military (I know about the same size as the 806)....but pleeeease not in olive drab. Or I will go with the BM 335D2 limited edition with Ti scales which is likely to be the winner. Love the max velocity, but a little out of my price range, I'm afraid. Thanks, for all the input!
Edited by - HoB on 5/1/2004 8:10:23 PM
Edited by - HoB on 5/1/2004 8:10:23 PM
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sc_rebel1957
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Hob, Joe's remarks leave very little for me to add.
While I LOVE the CPM steels, the D-2 I'm making some test kives from I leave @ 62RC.
You need a diamond to get the profile correct (that IMO is the key) after that just a touch up on the fine ceramics every so often keeps it shaving sharp.
I saw a thread awhile back that Sal may try a run of D-2 <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s soon <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.
At the higher Rc it can be a bear to resharpen once it gets real dull. Ron
Edited to say I shoulda read Thombrogans post twice, then I'd have seen he mentioned the Spydie soon to be connection 1st <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
http://www.geocities.com/joyce43_c/RONSKNIFESHOP
Edited by - sc_rebel1957 on 5/2/2004 2:16:50 AM
While I LOVE the CPM steels, the D-2 I'm making some test kives from I leave @ 62RC.
You need a diamond to get the profile correct (that IMO is the key) after that just a touch up on the fine ceramics every so often keeps it shaving sharp.
I saw a thread awhile back that Sal may try a run of D-2 <img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s soon <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.
At the higher Rc it can be a bear to resharpen once it gets real dull. Ron
Edited to say I shoulda read Thombrogans post twice, then I'd have seen he mentioned the Spydie soon to be connection 1st <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
http://www.geocities.com/joyce43_c/RONSKNIFESHOP
Edited by - sc_rebel1957 on 5/2/2004 2:16:50 AM
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Sword and Shield
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thombrogan
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Sword and Shield,
D2 at Rc62 should be worth the nightmares. I'd rather M2, but that's just me.
To reprofile uncompromising steel, make an uncompromising stock-removal hone. Go buy a coarse sanding belt and cut it up to use for hones and sanding blocks. As much of a bear as D2 is, it's no match for 50 grit zirconium belt that's been hacked and stuck on a block.
D2 at Rc62 should be worth the nightmares. I'd rather M2, but that's just me.
To reprofile uncompromising steel, make an uncompromising stock-removal hone. Go buy a coarse sanding belt and cut it up to use for hones and sanding blocks. As much of a bear as D2 is, it's no match for 50 grit zirconium belt that's been hacked and stuck on a block.