OT 5,000 MPH!!!!

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Civilian
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OT 5,000 MPH!!!!

#1

Post by Civilian »

Things are really shaking out here on the left coast. I've been waiting for the "scramjet" to finally work. Story on the <A HREF="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ">X-43A</A>
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#2

Post by java »

Woohoo!

Good to see there's another Aero-Spydie Forumite! Great 2nd test flight for the X-43 and score another one the grand old lady of Dryden! "Balls 8" has seen almost 50 years of flight test milestones! From the X-15 to the X-43 – this B-52B’s fuselage is nearly covered by mission patch symbology. Loved every minute I spent at the Flight Test Center. Always something exciting going on!!

<img src="http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/ ... E-4942.jpg">
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#3

Post by AllenETreat »

Thing is, this'll usher in the age of
un-piloted aircraft...

We'll have to rely on computers & AI to
do the "thinking" in the "dogfights" of
the future.

I got a kick out of that Pentagon spokesman
on ABC World News : "We have to find a cheaper way to make war!" ( costs for this current bru ha ha is 1 BILLION a DAY! )

Rommel put it best : "the infantryman is the ULTIMATE weapon" ( this applies elsewhere in ANY military force <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>)

AET

Let me win your hearts & minds, or I'll burn your **** huts down!
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#4

Post by java »

<b>WHAT!!!?</b>

Ushered in??? The UAV was ushered in a while ago and has been comfortably relaxing in its role gathering intelligence, training pilots, and delivering small packets of ordnance to deserving recipients on an as needed basis. The scramjet may offer new roles for UAVs but the technology was and always has been a necessary step toward what was once labeled as the National Aerospace Plane.

The NASP or X-30 Aerospaceplane was a technology demonstator program developed by NASA to investigate the commercially viable sub-orbital space travel. It was a single stage to orbit passenger and light cargo craft taking off horizontally from a runway, flying to orbit and returning to earth and landing like a standard airplane. The X-30 was to use scramjet (a supersonic ramjet) as propulsion and its propellants were liquid hydrogen and atmospheric oxygen. It was proposed that the X-30 could be modified into an airliner. By using the X-30's scramjet propulsion, flights between any 2 points around the earth at mach 12 would take less than 2 hours. The X-30 was cancelled in 1993 but the technological lessons learned fueled further research in advanced propulsion engines.

And as for the military use, technology insertion is a two way street. Granted military applications are definitely possible for logistics deployment and projection of power but this has more benefits and growth potential in the commercial cargo, business, and leisure travel. The NASP was once labeled the Orient Express at one point in its development.

Current un-piloted military vehicles that have the speed and endurance to project power are called ICBMs. And what about dogfighting in the future? There is little room for dogfights at Mach 10, Allen. You’d be just as effective dogfighting in an ocean liner. You miss the first pass kill and it’s many, many miles to turn and re-engage. Dogfights, as you are thinking are best left to the Predators, Hawks, RC drones, and unmentioned CAVs already in existence. AI?? Maybe but each one currently is either reviewed by or directly driven by a human operator safely tucked away behind the FEBA.

Rommel, the man most historians most associate with tank tactics, glorifying the infantry can be likened to what modern air warfare proponents agree to when they give praise saying "It takes ground troops to hold the battlefield". This truism has never been denied and a major part of airpower is close air support/battlefield air interdiction, softening tactical targets to support sea invasion or battlefield manuvering, and strategic bombing to reduce the enemy’s ability to wage war on <b>all</b> our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines.

Our ground forces have always fought bravely but past and current thinking is that America and most "civilized" countries cannot accept major loss of life on the battlefield. Okinawa, Iwo Jima, Guadalcanal, et al were expensive lessons in victory. Our goal has since has been to achieve victory in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of death for our own in the past and - since we now have a greater social conscience and in-depth media coverage – our opponent’s as well today. Ultimate weapon? Yeah I guess that’s correct. We did need an occupation force after sea and airpower finally brought Japan around to close out WWII…...

I'd say nice thread drift but your dogfight comments loaded this maneuver so fast I almost experienced GLOC*

j

* That's that's gravity inducued loss of consciousness caused by experincing a sudden high gavity-load (acceleration) - not Dann's weapon of choice <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
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#5

Post by glockman99 »

java,

...And I WAS just about to give you a "GLOCK" spelling-lesson...LOL...

BTW...I watched the news-clips of the flight of that "rocket", and it was rather impressive!...That darn thing flies faster than even my '94 Ford Tempo. <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.

Dann Fassnacht Aberdeen, WA glockman99@hotmail.com ICQ: 53675663
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#6

Post by ken »

I guess the B-52 will fly forever!
Nice to see new technology and old alike.

Does the X-43A at mach 7 have anything on the old X-15 at mach 6.7. Maybe just the way it is fueled.

Kind of cool how it sucks oxygen out of the atmosphere so they call it (supersonic-combustion ramjet or scramjet.)

Why don't we use hydrogen and oxygen to fuel cars?

ken
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#7

Post by java »

Dann,

LOL! Roger on the spelling lesson. I like GLOCKs but really have no desire to fully "experience" them. And being an old Ford man I have to say Day-yam, that must be fast! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

There's more story and shots on NASA’s DFRC home page. <a href=http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov>Dryden Flight Research Center</a> I was the Air Force logistician assigned to the F-15 test force at Edwards and the F-15 ACTIVE, shown here, transferred from the Air Force, where it was the F-15 STOL (Short Take Off and Landing) vectored thrust demonstrator, to NASA under my tenure. Worked with NASA on several programs and always enjoyed the professionalism, curiosity, and can do attitude their flight researchers brought to the programs. Great folks to work with!

Besides the X-43, I’m pretty jazzed about research into reducing the sonic-boom footprint. The way things are progressing; we might see commercial supersonic routes over the continental land mass re-opened. LA to NYC in less than 2 hours....cool.

j


<img src=http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/ ... 3485-3.jpg>
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#8

Post by java »

CIVILIAN,

The X-43 cuts through the air like a C12 PE through butter. (Knife content) <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Great to see you're caught up in some of the aerospace advances out left. The Mojave is home to many test facilities and industry leaders in both military and civilian aviation. The Skunkworks is just down the road in Palmdale and Dick Rutan's Scaled Composites are up the road in Mojave as is the civilian flight test center and the airline storgae facility. Both NASA and the Air Force Flight Test Center have good air museums. There is Blackbird park, a division of the AFFCTC, in Palmdale with 4 or 5 SR-71s and A12s on display and small historical aviation related sites throughout the Mojave - Pancho Barne's Happy Bottom Riding Club ruins on Edwards is just one of many. Thanks for starting this post!!! Hope to see Marauder2002's input here soon.

Ad inexplorata!

java

Edited by - java on 3/28/2004 12:17:16 PM
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#9

Post by AllenETreat »

java ;

Good point on "casualty reduction" by use of
RPV's ; I ( and alot of Pentagon critics ) put little faith in computers - human engineered, due to human failure! There's also a cheap ( by warfare standards anyways ) device called the EMP bomb ( knocks out all microchip devices )

What then?

No computers, it comes down to people, the
same people that ironically developed the computer driven warfare we know today.

I don't think there's such a thing as a war
without casualties ( one can limit them, just remember the war being fought now is
LIC ( or terrorist ) conflict...anyone is fair game!

I think there's still a semblence of "dogfights" using "air-to-air" missles.
Nothing like the "dogfights" of WWI of course.

AET

Let me win your hearts & minds, or I'll burn your **** huts down!
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#10

Post by java »

Well Allen,

Nuclear hardening (read EMP, EMI, and HERO testing compliant) is standard practice on most Air Force acquisitions. We'll still have the toys in the event of an EM pulse. If you don't place faith in computers, the shuttle doesn't fly, nor would have the X-35, the B2, the F-117, and TF would never have passed the test when the F-111 took to flying 100 feet off the deck at 500 mph at night in rugged terrain to deliver pin-point weapons accuracy as far back as 1967. Mind you that is just a small slice from the military air side of the house. Even our aerospace ground equipment used to service the aircraft is nuclear hardened. EMP has been considered since we blacked out comm in half the Pacific rim during one of the early nuclear tests back in the '50s. Contingency planning is alive and well in the rest of the military as well. Do you really think the Pentagon on down is really unprepared for this.

The "EMP bomb" as you call it is the stuff of movies for now – sure I enjoyed the <b>Ocean’s 11</b> remake too. Go to the Sandia Labs home page to find out how the unclassified part of EMP, EMI, and HERO testing are done. The EM pulse is present during the initial detonation of nuclear weapons and area coverage depends on the altitude of the explosion. Hardening is the process whereby vital components are protected against EMP. As a weapons system acquisition logistician I could tell you more about these requirements but I may be required to shoot you so let’s not go there.

The critics who deride our faith in computers probably research the web and the news wires from their PCs and laptops to find ever so irrelevant material to bash the military anyway. Don't you find that a little bit hypocritical. Our planner’s faith in computers has given us the surgical precision of Global Positioning to deliver weapons to your car or doorstep and the same computer based technology relays the information worldwide at the speed of light so that everyone else can scream about innocent victims and collateral damage. Never mind that war is **** and civilians have always died in wars past. The fact that we are concerned enough to have reduced the damage below that which our enemies would inflict on us will not be discussed on the reader feedback e-mails.

No faith in computers, Allen. Slowly raise your hands and step away from the keyboard.
Now back to the aircraft show......

<img src="http://www.invisible-defenders.org/IMAG ... b2+n9m.jpg">

The Northrup N-9M.and B-2 Spirit bomber. The N-9was one of Jack Northrup’s original flying wings first flown during WWII at Edwards. It was restored to flying status by the Planes of Fame Air Museum in Chino CA and test flown at Edwards for FAA recertification in 1994.

j

Edited by - java on 3/28/2004 11:31:32 PM
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#11

Post by thombrogan »

Well I'm using an abacus and some copper wire hammered into the base of a quartz pyramid to write this,so please bear with me ("growl! snuffle! hibernate!&quot<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.

What the new propulsion technology will do is reduce the time and expenses of airline transportation even further. Less pilots needed, less time needed, hopefully less cost. Safety should be increased as well as it'll be harder to hijack a command center.

Bottom line: Spyderco knives and sharpening supplies will get to us or go from us to the w/r department much quicker. To quote fellow knifeknut Martha Stewart: "Let me out! I'm innocent!" um, er, ahem, um, no, em, "It's a good thing."
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#12

Post by java »

thombrogan,

In a nutshell - Faster Golden to Thom service! Very well put! I like your way of thinking! <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
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#13

Post by thombrogan »

It doesn't stop there, Java. Say Civilian accidentally amputates a limb and he needs emergency surgery. Well, I pray not, but with a civilian-use medical-purposes plane powered with these engines, he can be flown off for surgery and get back before his Civi starts to pit!
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#14

Post by java »

Thom,

LOL! I'm sure that will reassure CIVILIAN.

That still puts me in a quandry, however. Whenever I flew from Japan to the US, I always would arrive before I left. I'll be even earlier now. If I eat Chinese before leaving Hong Kong, I'll have to wait even longer once I land in the US to be hungry in an hour before the hour after the hour I ate. Or something like that......

Still can't fly for 24 hours after diving though. Bummer!

j
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#15

Post by Civilian »

Well hopefully if said amputation actually occured I could get faster treatment by the best surgeon in the world with <A HREF="http://cooltech.iafrica.com/technews/237989.htm">Remote Surgery</A>.
Anyway, When they actually make passenger planes or for that matter Military planes with a "SCRAMJET" engine I wonder what the plan for takeoff is? Jet engine to get off the ground, Ramjet to get up to 3,500, and then fire up the Scramjet. I guess they'll probably have some kind of tracsitional type engine like on the <A HREF="http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/ ... ">SR-71</A>
Seems like we have a long way to go still. But that is great acceleration 3500 to 5000mph in 10 seconds!
________________________
MAT<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>TER





Edited by - CIVILIAN on 3/30/2004 11:32:26 AM
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#16

Post by java »

CIVVIE,

I believe the transitional part of the engines is similar to veri-ramps and inlet spikes on supersonic afterbuning engines. The purpose of these is to slow the inrushing air to subsonic speeds so the supersonic shock wave does not reach the engine and cause what we call a flame out (engine stall). The SPIKE technology demonstrator in your link may be the proposed technology used to boost the launch vehicle to tarnsitional speeds. I'll have to research more after school tonight. along with the remote surgery link. I wonder how reassuring robotic bedside manner will be?? <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>


j
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