Dear Sal,
I'm writing to invite you to participate in a factory sharpening competition - we're pitching the top personal sharpening systems against each other and comparing the results. We'll send the knife (a new KA-BAR Dozier Hunter) and all you have to do is get someone you trust to sharpen it on a Sharpmaker and return it.
We have positive responses from your competitors: Razor Edge Systems say they're keen to join in and Edge Pro Inc even demanded 2 knives!
Trouble is, I'm having trouble contacting you. Would you like to join in?
Details are given in:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/sho ... php?t=2302
Invite to Sal - Sharpening Competition
Hi Dan. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.
Got your email dated 14 January, was going to respond today but as long as your on the forum, we can chat this way.
We'll be happy to participate although I do not see how you will compare them? Individuals "feeling" the edge is not very scientific.
If I had my "druthers", I'd rather use VG-10 on a Spyderco made knife. Sharpening somebody elses knives bring in a host of questions on consistency, angle, heat treat, etc.
Better steels do expand the potential range. I don't know wht kind of steel Kabar is using on the knife mentioned (I don't think they use "exotic" [expensive] steels, but surely the type of steel will have a bearing on optimum performance.
Regarding the cutting of circles in paper, that takes much longer to learn than sharpening.
sal
Edited by - sal on 1/16/2004 11:05:08 AM
Got your email dated 14 January, was going to respond today but as long as your on the forum, we can chat this way.
We'll be happy to participate although I do not see how you will compare them? Individuals "feeling" the edge is not very scientific.
If I had my "druthers", I'd rather use VG-10 on a Spyderco made knife. Sharpening somebody elses knives bring in a host of questions on consistency, angle, heat treat, etc.
Better steels do expand the potential range. I don't know wht kind of steel Kabar is using on the knife mentioned (I don't think they use "exotic" [expensive] steels, but surely the type of steel will have a bearing on optimum performance.
Regarding the cutting of circles in paper, that takes much longer to learn than sharpening.
sal
Edited by - sal on 1/16/2004 11:05:08 AM
Thanks Sal.
I've no doubt at all about the consistency of quality in a Spyderco knife. I chose these knives because:
(a) I'm trying as much as possible to [avoid] favouritism towards one kit manufacturer; Spyderco is the only one that also makes knives
(b) The Spyderco Sharpmaker is the only system of the three that is capable of sharpening a Spyderedge or similar serration
(c) The Doziers cost only $20 each, yet still have fairly good quality AUS-8 blades tempered to 56-58 Rc, a nice mid-range hardness.
You're right about the testing. It's not going to be like a ABS cutting competition for logistical reasons. Unless one edge is hugely superior, we'll probably not even declare a 'winner'. I'll examine and test the knives and then pass them around the Britishblades forum for users to come to (and post) their own conclusions.
More accurately, it'll be a careful comparison of sharpening results rather than a competition. I have already bought all of these systems and know their limitations and where they excel.
Only the Sharpmaker is suitable for knives with serrations; it has the hardest stones for long service live and the ability to sharpen very hard steels; it packs into the smallest and lightest box; it sharpens more types of bladed objects without an adapter; it leaves a nice slightly convex transition from bevel to final edge. Likewise, your competitors sharpen excel in their own ways.
This event is rather about what edge can be achieved be a practiced hand and which sharpened knife we'd prefer to use.
Anyway, thank you for agreeing to participate in our event. I'll instruct our knife dealer (Outdoor Supplies UK) to mail the knife to Spyderco market to your attention. Further details will be posted in britishblades.com
Thanks again!
Edited by - ZDP-189 on 1/17/2004 8:18:34 AM
I've no doubt at all about the consistency of quality in a Spyderco knife. I chose these knives because:
(a) I'm trying as much as possible to [avoid] favouritism towards one kit manufacturer; Spyderco is the only one that also makes knives
(b) The Spyderco Sharpmaker is the only system of the three that is capable of sharpening a Spyderedge or similar serration
(c) The Doziers cost only $20 each, yet still have fairly good quality AUS-8 blades tempered to 56-58 Rc, a nice mid-range hardness.
You're right about the testing. It's not going to be like a ABS cutting competition for logistical reasons. Unless one edge is hugely superior, we'll probably not even declare a 'winner'. I'll examine and test the knives and then pass them around the Britishblades forum for users to come to (and post) their own conclusions.
More accurately, it'll be a careful comparison of sharpening results rather than a competition. I have already bought all of these systems and know their limitations and where they excel.
Only the Sharpmaker is suitable for knives with serrations; it has the hardest stones for long service live and the ability to sharpen very hard steels; it packs into the smallest and lightest box; it sharpens more types of bladed objects without an adapter; it leaves a nice slightly convex transition from bevel to final edge. Likewise, your competitors sharpen excel in their own ways.
This event is rather about what edge can be achieved be a practiced hand and which sharpened knife we'd prefer to use.
Anyway, thank you for agreeing to participate in our event. I'll instruct our knife dealer (Outdoor Supplies UK) to mail the knife to Spyderco market to your attention. Further details will be posted in britishblades.com
Thanks again!
Edited by - ZDP-189 on 1/17/2004 8:18:34 AM
We're still reaching a final consensus on how the edges will be tested and judged, but the idea is to be consistent with the use a typical user would expect to use a knife of this type for. You or anyone for that matter is welcome to contribute to that discussion.
The only limitations are that only the Sharpmaker be used (including its publicaly available accessories, such as diamond hones, if you choose). That means we request the sharpening system makers don't grind the knife on a belt or wheel, don't re-temper, heat treat or coat the steel or to any other fairly obvious enhancements.
Also, for our education and enlightenment, we'd like you to specify what special techniques you used to get your ultimate edge, especially if you deviate from the instructions that come with the product(e.g. the Sharpmaker Video)
Final, identical instructions, judging objectives and testing criteria will be sent ahead of each knife and posted on the britishblades.com forum.
The only limitations are that only the Sharpmaker be used (including its publicaly available accessories, such as diamond hones, if you choose). That means we request the sharpening system makers don't grind the knife on a belt or wheel, don't re-temper, heat treat or coat the steel or to any other fairly obvious enhancements.
Also, for our education and enlightenment, we'd like you to specify what special techniques you used to get your ultimate edge, especially if you deviate from the instructions that come with the product(e.g. the Sharpmaker Video)
Final, identical instructions, judging objectives and testing criteria will be sent ahead of each knife and posted on the britishblades.com forum.
-
danzomekahiro
- Member
- Posts: 162
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Nottingham United Kingdom
Thanks Danzo.
We'll need at least 6, but preferably 8 knives for testing.
The use of a Spyderco would be fine, as long as the model chosen would be in the same size range (approx 3-4"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>, be of respectable steel and temper, have a typical straight to upswept curve shape (without hook, recurve or serrations) and have a good relief (ideally hollow ground, or max 20-25 degree flat ground primary bevel) and all knives must be identical in model and condition.
My final requirement is that the cost of the demo blades for the testing is no more than $20 each. Therefore, cosmetic seconds are acceptable, as long as any imperfections do not affect the sharpening.
If Sal or someone else from Spyderco wants to contact me here (or through my email) we can sort out the details and then I'll check with the other participants to see if they're comfortable with the switch of knife.
Many thanks!
We'll need at least 6, but preferably 8 knives for testing.
The use of a Spyderco would be fine, as long as the model chosen would be in the same size range (approx 3-4"<img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>, be of respectable steel and temper, have a typical straight to upswept curve shape (without hook, recurve or serrations) and have a good relief (ideally hollow ground, or max 20-25 degree flat ground primary bevel) and all knives must be identical in model and condition.
My final requirement is that the cost of the demo blades for the testing is no more than $20 each. Therefore, cosmetic seconds are acceptable, as long as any imperfections do not affect the sharpening.
If Sal or someone else from Spyderco wants to contact me here (or through my email) we can sort out the details and then I'll check with the other participants to see if they're comfortable with the switch of knife.
Many thanks!
-
dialex
- Member
- Posts: 9169
- Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 10:33 am
- Location: Campina, Romania, Europe, Terra
- Contact:
Welcome to the Spyderco Forum and congratulations for your initiative.
You were saying a Spderco fixed blade would be OK to complete the test. I was thinking at the FB03 Bob Lum Tanto. It matches your criteria, many features are close to the KaBar's: AUS-8 steel, hollow ground, blade length 3 7/8" (98mm) and slightly recurved.
Please, keep us in touch with the results, we are also interested (not that we'd have any doubts regarding Spydies)... <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
You were saying a Spderco fixed blade would be OK to complete the test. I was thinking at the FB03 Bob Lum Tanto. It matches your criteria, many features are close to the KaBar's: AUS-8 steel, hollow ground, blade length 3 7/8" (98mm) and slightly recurved.
Please, keep us in touch with the results, we are also interested (not that we'd have any doubts regarding Spydies)... <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>
<a href="http://users.pcnet.ro/dialex"><font color=blue>(my page)</font></a>
Dear Sal,
I read in the March 04 edition of Blade Magazine that you have a CATRA Sharpness and Life tester and goniometer. I wonder if you'd agree to have the knives double-blinded (anonymously marked with a numbered sticky label) and inspected/ photographed by myself and then returned to your factory for testing on the CATRA machine?
This way, if you choose to supply all Spyderco knives, you could retain all the knives for sale as seconds/ kept as demo models, etc.
I read in the March 04 edition of Blade Magazine that you have a CATRA Sharpness and Life tester and goniometer. I wonder if you'd agree to have the knives double-blinded (anonymously marked with a numbered sticky label) and inspected/ photographed by myself and then returned to your factory for testing on the CATRA machine?
This way, if you choose to supply all Spyderco knives, you could retain all the knives for sale as seconds/ kept as demo models, etc.
Via webform, CC: British Blades Forum and Spyderco Forum
Dear Sal,
We are about to push ahead with the sharpening competition.
http://www.spyderco.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=10235
In the forum linked above you said you wanted us to use Spyderco knives, not KA-BARs and asked how the knives would be tested. In return, I accepted the use of Spyderco's and proposed the testing be done on your CATRA machine, but have not received your response.
If you wish to proceed as proposed, please inform me and I will provide the contact details of representatives at Razor Edge Systems and Edge Pro for you to ship 1 and 2 knives each respectively. Spyderco may sharpen 1 or 2 knives. The rules and testing procedure are as follows:
Test Knife: The knives must be identical and with a typical factory edge. Cosmetic seconds are permissible, but without obvious individually identifying features. The blade must be straight with some belly, and have no recurves, hooks nor serrations.
Sharpening: The knives are to be sharpened using the product in question, and any parts or methods not specified in the product's training manual are to be minimised and stated.
Examination and Testing: The sharpened knives will be posted to myself in [COUNTRY], for 'double-blind' labelling and photographing under a digital microscope. All anonymised knives will be sent to Spyderco for Spyderco's standard test run under the Laser Goniometer and 'CATRA Sharpness and Life' tester (e.g. ICP and TCC60).
Publication: The anonymised results will be passed to myself and decoded before being published within two weeks in the British Blades and Spyderco forums. We reserve the right to make subjective comments in addition to publishing the results verbatim. Test results are the obvious competition criteria, but forum members are also interested in the cosmetic damage to the blade in sharpening and other such factors will be noted. Forum members and competition participants are welcome to make their own comments.
Prizes: Other than the honour of beating the competition in a controlled test in a public forum, none are offered!
Disposal of the Knives: If Spyderco knives are provided for free, you may retain them, or they can be posted back to myself for pass-around the forum(s) or sale.
Cash Contribution: In addition to buying the microscope, I have a budget limit of $20-25 per knife, plus reasonable S&H, which would have been spent buying the KA-BARs. This is in line with the CATRA testing offer you are quoted to have made in the March 2004 edition of Blade Magazine. I am willing to contribute that amount to Spyderco to help offset your costs.
Thanks Sal, for taking time out of your busy schedule to read and respond to this message. I hope to hear from you or another representative at Spyderco within a week so that we can press ahead with the competition. I have initiated discussions with CATRA (they have a free testing offer), and discussions with a retailer for the KABARs, as a backup plan.
With many thanks,
[ZDP-189]
Dear Sal,
We are about to push ahead with the sharpening competition.
http://www.spyderco.com/forum/topic.asp?topic_id=10235
In the forum linked above you said you wanted us to use Spyderco knives, not KA-BARs and asked how the knives would be tested. In return, I accepted the use of Spyderco's and proposed the testing be done on your CATRA machine, but have not received your response.
If you wish to proceed as proposed, please inform me and I will provide the contact details of representatives at Razor Edge Systems and Edge Pro for you to ship 1 and 2 knives each respectively. Spyderco may sharpen 1 or 2 knives. The rules and testing procedure are as follows:
Test Knife: The knives must be identical and with a typical factory edge. Cosmetic seconds are permissible, but without obvious individually identifying features. The blade must be straight with some belly, and have no recurves, hooks nor serrations.
Sharpening: The knives are to be sharpened using the product in question, and any parts or methods not specified in the product's training manual are to be minimised and stated.
Examination and Testing: The sharpened knives will be posted to myself in [COUNTRY], for 'double-blind' labelling and photographing under a digital microscope. All anonymised knives will be sent to Spyderco for Spyderco's standard test run under the Laser Goniometer and 'CATRA Sharpness and Life' tester (e.g. ICP and TCC60).
Publication: The anonymised results will be passed to myself and decoded before being published within two weeks in the British Blades and Spyderco forums. We reserve the right to make subjective comments in addition to publishing the results verbatim. Test results are the obvious competition criteria, but forum members are also interested in the cosmetic damage to the blade in sharpening and other such factors will be noted. Forum members and competition participants are welcome to make their own comments.
Prizes: Other than the honour of beating the competition in a controlled test in a public forum, none are offered!
Disposal of the Knives: If Spyderco knives are provided for free, you may retain them, or they can be posted back to myself for pass-around the forum(s) or sale.
Cash Contribution: In addition to buying the microscope, I have a budget limit of $20-25 per knife, plus reasonable S&H, which would have been spent buying the KA-BARs. This is in line with the CATRA testing offer you are quoted to have made in the March 2004 edition of Blade Magazine. I am willing to contribute that amount to Spyderco to help offset your costs.
Thanks Sal, for taking time out of your busy schedule to read and respond to this message. I hope to hear from you or another representative at Spyderco within a week so that we can press ahead with the competition. I have initiated discussions with CATRA (they have a free testing offer), and discussions with a retailer for the KABARs, as a backup plan.
With many thanks,
[ZDP-189]
Hi ZDP-189,
Time is at a premium these days, SHOT show, IWA show & all. Sorry.
I didn't say that I wouldn't use Kabar if that's what you decided. I just questioned the consistency of a $20 knife.
We cannot make a folding knife for $20, much less sell them retail for that. After some thought, I came up with this.
Last year, I was toying with the idea of making "mules" out of different steels for knife nuts. They could be cut out from a planned pattern such as a Dodo (very ergonomic) with a 2.5" - 3" warncliffe shape blade, ground (hollow or flat), tumbled, stamped with the steel and sold at a low price, factory direct to provide the "mule" to those steel snobs interested. No sheath, no handle, just a slab of steel.
We can start to play with this for the future but I don't think that I could squeeze in the project at this time. I'm "on the road" until early April with back to back trips.
So I guess the Kabar will do.
Catra is in Sheffield. If they've offered free testing, that might be cheaper.
We do not have a "Life' tester". Just the Goniometer and Edge tester.
Sounds like a major effort. Lotsa variables. It will be interesting to see how you work them out.
I'm at your service.
sal
Time is at a premium these days, SHOT show, IWA show & all. Sorry.
I didn't say that I wouldn't use Kabar if that's what you decided. I just questioned the consistency of a $20 knife.
We cannot make a folding knife for $20, much less sell them retail for that. After some thought, I came up with this.
Last year, I was toying with the idea of making "mules" out of different steels for knife nuts. They could be cut out from a planned pattern such as a Dodo (very ergonomic) with a 2.5" - 3" warncliffe shape blade, ground (hollow or flat), tumbled, stamped with the steel and sold at a low price, factory direct to provide the "mule" to those steel snobs interested. No sheath, no handle, just a slab of steel.
We can start to play with this for the future but I don't think that I could squeeze in the project at this time. I'm "on the road" until early April with back to back trips.
So I guess the Kabar will do.
Catra is in Sheffield. If they've offered free testing, that might be cheaper.
We do not have a "Life' tester". Just the Goniometer and Edge tester.
Sounds like a major effort. Lotsa variables. It will be interesting to see how you work them out.
I'm at your service.
sal
Dear Sal,
Thanks for your quick reply and continued support. I'll try to minimise the time you need to spend and avoid clashing with SHOT 2004.
I'll order the KABARs for immediate dispatch. I'll send you one, but another is available, if you require it. Detailed instructions and details of the testing protocol will be provided. Shall I mark the package to your attention?
Given SHOT will be over by 15th, let's aim to sharpen the knife (or knives) for posting off to me by the end of the month.
I haven't had a reply yet from CATRA. They are my first choice, and we can always go back to the 'amateur' testing, but if that fails to work out I may get back to you to request testing on the Spyderco CATRA machine.
Thanks for your quick reply and continued support. I'll try to minimise the time you need to spend and avoid clashing with SHOT 2004.
I'll order the KABARs for immediate dispatch. I'll send you one, but another is available, if you require it. Detailed instructions and details of the testing protocol will be provided. Shall I mark the package to your attention?
Given SHOT will be over by 15th, let's aim to sharpen the knife (or knives) for posting off to me by the end of the month.
I haven't had a reply yet from CATRA. They are my first choice, and we can always go back to the 'amateur' testing, but if that fails to work out I may get back to you to request testing on the Spyderco CATRA machine.
Hi Dan,
"Shall I mark the package to your attention"?
yes.
"Given SHOT will be over by 15th, let's aim to sharpen the knife (or knives) for posting off to me by the end of the month".
I have another trip after SHOT, won't return until the 23rd.
I'll give it my best effort.
"I haven't had a reply yet from CATRA. They are my first choice, and we can always go back to the 'amateur' testing, but if that fails to work out I may get back to you to request testing on the Spyderco CATRA machine".
ok.
sal
"Shall I mark the package to your attention"?
yes.
"Given SHOT will be over by 15th, let's aim to sharpen the knife (or knives) for posting off to me by the end of the month".
I have another trip after SHOT, won't return until the 23rd.
I'll give it my best effort.
"I haven't had a reply yet from CATRA. They are my first choice, and we can always go back to the 'amateur' testing, but if that fails to work out I may get back to you to request testing on the Spyderco CATRA machine".
ok.
sal