I had enough of Seki ''hiccups''

[weeping minora]

Relevant quote applicable to this thread; copy/pasted from the Mule Team Discussion thread "Handle and tang not flush?". All credit to bobartig and JRinFL:

quote=JRinFL post_id=1722487 time=1686328817 user_id=26398]

If you grab like 4 mules and pin them together with 3/16" chicago bolts, you will see there's enough variance that when you run your finger nail over them, it catches on some. It's like 1/3 of a millimeter here or there. The solution is to have the scales shy by ~1.5mm so the variances don't really show. Functionally there's no real difference.

In terms of manufacturing slop, the question in manufacturing is: "how much do you want to pay?" Can Spydero make all Mules identical to within 1/1000 of an inch? Probably. Do you wan them to cost $3000 each? Probably not. So when you think about how much more precise you would like their global mfring pipelines to be, you should always consider that lock-step with how much more you are willing to pay.

This is a very important sentence, so I highlighted it. I try to be cognizant that my requests can often lead to a higher price if implemented.
[/quote]

[ladybug93]

It's the nature of mass produced knives.

i understand what you're saying, but i don't buy that. i've had plenty of flawless $30 mass produced knives. the only issues with them being cheaper materials. there's no excuse when you have a qc department to be letting so many issues through, and certainly no excuse for letting the customer just eat it. and before anyone says you can't compare china with japan or america, you're right. it's way worse that they are pulling off better qc than their counterparts in places that have historically been known for much higher quality.



i've really wanted a nishijin knife for a while now. when i saw the stretch xl, i got really excited, but it's in the back of my mind that i really don't want to spend that much on a knife that comes from a factory rife with problems. i don't want a blade that is getting damaged by a lanyard tube. i don't want a knife that is poorly ground (at least there won't be snaggle teeth on this one because it's not serrated). i don't want to buy the knife knowing that, if there happens to be an issue, there's a chance the forum will dismiss it and tell me i'm wrong about a problem being a problem and then have spyderco tell me i can just send it back and not get a replacement. customers spending this much money shouldn't have to be concerned about things like this.

[weeping minora]

It's a bit surprising to me (I suppose I'd rather describe it as disappointing) that such issues with a factory edge are this condemning of an issue. I thought much of the Spyderco fan base were about using their knives and not so much in the realm of factory, pristine copy shaming? I'd understand if we're talking one-off collector piece runs (ala the upcoming Nishijin Stretch 2), but I mean, what gives here? Spyderco's whole company motto is Reliable High Performance. What exactly is anyone getting out of buying their knives, just to bash factory inconsistencies without ever planning to take advantage of that performance? This is seriously befuddling.

[ladybug93]

Relevant quote applicable to this thread; copy/pasted from the Mule Team Discussion thread "Handle and tang not flush?". All credit to bobartig and JRinFL:

quote=JRinFL post_id=1722487 time=1686328817 user_id=26398]

If you grab like 4 mules and pin them together with 3/16" chicago bolts, you will see there's enough variance that when you run your finger nail over them, it catches on some. It's like 1/3 of a millimeter here or there. The solution is to have the scales shy by ~1.5mm so the variances don't really show. Functionally there's no real difference.

In terms of manufacturing slop, the question in manufacturing is: "how much do you want to pay?" Can Spydero make all Mules identical to within 1/1000 of an inch? Probably. Do you wan them to cost $3000 each? Probably not. So when you think about how much more precise you would like their global mfring pipelines to be, you should always consider that lock-step with how much more you are willing to pay.

This is a very important sentence, so I highlighted it. I try to be cognizant that my requests can often lead to a higher price if implemented.

[/quote]

but what's the answer when you're already paying a premium price and receiving a subpar product? you can't just say to someone that they should be careful about asking for the knife to be right because then it would just be more expensive. that's ridiculous. the knife should cost what it costs and be right. you don't buy a car for $40k and find it needs an alignment as soon as you drive it off the lot, only to have the dealer say they could've paid better attention to the alignment, but it would've made the vehicle $300 more expensive.

[ladybug93]

It's a bit surprising to me (I suppose I'd rather describe it as disappointing) that such issues with a factory edge are this condemning of an issue. I thought much of the Spyderco fan base were about using their knives and not so much in the realm of factory, pristine copy shaming? I'd understand if we're talking one-off collector piece runs (ala the upcoming Nishijin Stretch 2), but I mean, what gives here? Spyderco's whole company motto is Reliable High Performance. What exactly is anyone getting out of buying their knives, just to bash factory inconsistencies without ever planning to take advantage of that performance? This is seriously befuddling.

i'm not sure what your point is here. who says he doesn't plan on using the knife? but regardless of whether it is bought as a user or a safe queen, it was purchased and should be received in good condition.


(i feel the need to add here that i'm not necessarily arguing about only this knife, in case that wasn't clear, but about the principle of the matter when it comes to qc issues with expensive products and poor responses to those issues.)

[weeping minora]

Relevant quote applicable to this thread; copy/pasted from the Mule Team Discussion thread "Handle and tang not flush?". All credit to bobartig and JRinFL:

quote=JRinFL post_id=1722487 time=1686328817 user_id=26398]

If you grab like 4 mules and pin them together with 3/16" chicago bolts, you will see there's enough variance that when you run your finger nail over them, it catches on some. It's like 1/3 of a millimeter here or there. The solution is to have the scales shy by ~1.5mm so the variances don't really show. Functionally there's no real difference.

In terms of manufacturing slop, the question in manufacturing is: "how much do you want to pay?" Can Spydero make all Mules identical to within 1/1000 of an inch? Probably. Do you wan them to cost $3000 each? Probably not. So when you think about how much more precise you would like their global mfring pipelines to be, you should always consider that lock-step with how much more you are willing to pay.

This is a very important sentence, so I highlighted it. I try to be cognizant that my requests can often lead to a higher price if implemented.

but what's the answer when you're already paying a premium price and receiving a subpar product? you can't just say to someone that they should be careful about asking for the knife to be right because then it would just be more expensive. that's ridiculous. the knife should cost what it costs and be right. you don't buy a car for $40k and find it needs an alignment as soon as you drive it off the lot, only to have the dealer say they could've paid better attention to the alignment, but it would've made the vehicle $300 more expensive.
[/quote]

The problem with that logic is that vehicles do have problems when rolling right off the factory lines; you may not notice them, because you do not test drive near as many vehicle models as you would test drive, or purchase, $200 knives. Just because you don't see it, nor experience it, doesn't make it a valid counterpoint. We're talking necessity for the first world, versus a hobby (and tens-of-thousands of dollars in difference).

Perhaps someone else here can start a company, run factories in 5 different countries worldwide and find a better solution to such manufacturing flaws ?

[Bolster]

...Every sprint run Chief I bought, I purchased two.
I'd inspect them both and sell off the one that had the lock release sticking out from the handle the most...

That's what I did with Calys when they were available. I'd buy two and keep the one with the least lock rock. It was an expensive way to get what I wanted, but it mostly worked.

[weeping minora]

It's a bit surprising to me (I suppose I'd rather describe it as disappointing) that such issues with a factory edge are this condemning of an issue. I thought much of the Spyderco fan base were about using their knives and not so much in the realm of factory, pristine copy shaming? I'd understand if we're talking one-off collector piece runs (ala the upcoming Nishijin Stretch 2), but I mean, what gives here? Spyderco's whole company motto is Reliable High Performance. What exactly is anyone getting out of buying their knives, just to bash factory inconsistencies without ever planning to take advantage of that performance? This is seriously befuddling.

i'm not sure what your point is here. who says he doesn't plan on using the knife? but regardless of whether it is bought as a user or a safe queen, it was purchased and should be received in good condition.


(i feel the need to add here that i'm not necessarily arguing about only this knife, in case that wasn't clear, but about the principle of the matter when it comes to qc issues with expensive products and poor responses to those issues.)

After literally one, perhaps two sharpenings, is that edge going to be in the same "terribly inconsistent shameful" factory edge? What in and of itself condemns that edge as not in good condition, anyway? Just because the OP is a (former/current?) engineer?

[weeping minora]

I feel like I repeat what sal says so dang much, I might go down for plagiarism, but, as sal says, "How is the cut?".

[Cl1ff]

All of my recent ones are just fine.
I don’t think these serrated edges are a quality issue, as they cut great, but I can understand a preference for a different edge finish.

Everyone likes their own edges and Spyderco is great because they make it really easy to sharpen your serrated knives how you want.

I suspect these kinds of edges actually slightly improve edge performance in a variety of ways (increases “bite” at a given grit, staggers/ mitigates wear and propagation of deformation, and therefore better longevity for the factory edge that non-enthusiasts aren’t likely to tune to their liking). Basically, many of the same benefits of serrations at a scale between a low grit and the actual serrations themselves.
That’s my hypothesis, at least. I’m probably going to look into higher magnification than what I can get from my 12x loupe to see what’s going on at the edge even more clearly.

They aren’t snaggy or rough edges, but actually pretty clean, especially at the buffed apex.

[BornIn1500]

Perhaps someone else here can start a company, run factories in 5 different countries worldwide and find a better solution to such manufacturing flaws ?

They don't "run" those foreign factories. Spyderco does not own them. They just work with them.

[DavidNM]

I just couldn’t see myself getting all worked up over that. As long as it cuts stuff well what is the problem?

[James Y]

Could it be that those grind lines are because the wheel or belt, or whatever on the machine that's used to grind the serrated edge pattern, is either an older or a newer one?

I doubt they were put there for a specific purpose. Anyway, even if those lines do impart some advantages in edge 'grabbiness,' after its first resharpening, it'll just be a normal SE again, anyway.

I've had a couple of SE knives come with edges that had those same prominent grind lines. Everybody is different, but it didn't bother me at all, neither functionally nor aesthetically. It did not negatively affect the blades' performance.

Jim

[CDEP]

I have 164 Spyderco knives representing all 5 factories. 32 of them from Seki. I have had only 3 of these knives that were not prefect (minor pivot adjustments to conform to my personal preferences not included), and of the 3, 2 were K390 Seki models that had to go straight to the Sharpmaker, while the last was the Stretch 2 XL Cruwear with the lanyard contact issue from Taiwan.

All three were solved by sharpening. I'm not only OK with that, I'm impressed by the ratio.

If it were easy to offer such a wide variety of products from 5 different countries of manufacture, with most having very high tolerances, I suspect Spyderco wouldn't be the only company that does it.

[Ramonade]

Well I had the Stretch 2 XL in Cruwear with a weird defect in the backspacer and a lockbar that doesn't sit flush.
Figured it was a lemon and I can ask a refund.

But I'm way too afraid to send it back since it might get lost or something, I think I'll live with it !

[ZrowsN1s]

Ive certainly had my complaints and nit picks from time to time, so I cast no aspersions for anyone having theirs.

This particular one is not a big issue for me. It might even be looked at as a performance feature. We all have our preferences though. I prefer a more polished edge finish (which I put on myself).

[weeping minora]

Perhaps someone else here can start a company, run factories in 5 different countries worldwide and find a better solution to such manufacturing flaws ?

They don't "run" those foreign factories. Spyderco does not own them. They just work with them.

Yet everyone is demanding that Spyderco fixes these "issues", like they do.

[sal]

Hi Marius,

I'm sorry for your disappointment. I could go into a deep explanation of how serration wheels are formed (no two edges exactly the same) or how K390 has it's own grinding issues (Vanadium carbides) or how long it took to be able to get this maker just to work with K390 for us (years). I could go into how many tens of thousands of knives that this maker makes for us each month with a high degree of quality with very obstinate materials that would be difficult to find from any comparable maker.

But I won't. The best that I can do is apologize for your disappointment and make the offer, that you can send the knife back to me in Colorado and I will refund your purchase price and the cost of shipping.

Thanx to those that came to my defense. Appreciate.

sal

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"Did my music please you? NO, the words you sang were wrong".

[Fireman]

“What we have here is a failure to appreciate” If you know that movie that I botched for a comedic twist, good on ya. I don’t understand the mentality of people who complain about a product when there are so many options in the market available. I don’t know how Sal has so much patience to make himself personally available to respond to the worst offenders of ingratitude.

[riclaw]

Major Payne? I know all the classics.

These threads make me appreciate how easy it is for us to get Spyderco knives in the US.