Model request: Enuff in S7 steel

[vivi]

That design could really shine in a tough steel with a thin edge.

One of the reasons the original run wasn't more popular than it was is they shipped them with really thick edges. When I tested mine in some snowy forests against the S7 Dogfather, the edge tended to bounce off when chopping at an angle.

At the time I was all freehand powered by elbow grease and didn't feel confident reprofiling one. If I could get my hands on one for a good price I'd love to take it to my belt sander and try the design with a thinned out edge. I never felt like I got to experience the knifes full potential.

[JD Spydo]

I had to read up on S7. Larrin reports a C-Notch toughness as high as 130 ft lbs when it’s around Rc 56. Wow. On the other hand, the steel is seldom seen much beyond Rc 58, so is quite soft in comparison to other knife steels. Larrin concludes: “S7 doesn't have good wear resistance.” Sounds like a chopper steel. I notice that S5 is even tougher (peaking at 16o ft lbs!), but can be hardened higher than S7.

Yeah that's exactly what it's meant for>> edged striking tools. I had a friend of mine who was very knowledgeable about tool steels tell me a few years back that S7 is almost perfect for striking tools like axes, Adzes, hatchets ect. I have noticed however that the custom made hawks, hatchets and axes that are made with S7 tool steel all have a very hefty price tag.

As far as knives go I would love to try some type of utility blade with S7. I've been an admirer of tool steels for knives for a long time now. Another model I would love to see made with S7 steel would be either one or both of those Jason Breeden designs i.e. the C-111 Captain and the Breeden RESCUE.

[Bolster]

...I had a friend of mine who was very knowledgeable about tool steels tell me a few years back that S7 is almost perfect for striking tools like axes, Adzes, hatchets ect. I have noticed however that the custom made hawks, hatchets and axes that are made with S7 tool steel all have a very hefty price tag...

If you ever find a mid-priced axe or hatchet made of S7 would you please let me know? I'd like to try it. I say mid-priced, because I don't want to pay top dollar for a cutting tool I'll be mashing into rocks...! It seems I always find the rocks when using my axes and hatchets--often to chop roots. Who uses an axe to cut down a tree anymore...that's what chainsaws are for...but roots? Hard to beat an axe or a hatchet for that work.

[kerrcobra]

If you ever find a mid-priced axe or hatchet made of S7 would you please let me know? I'd like to try it. I say mid-priced, because I don't want to pay top dollar for a cutting tool I'll be mashing into rocks...! It seems I always find the rocks when using my axes and hatchets--often to chop roots. Who uses an axe to cut down a tree anymore...that's what chainsaws are for...but roots? Hard to beat an axe or a hatchet for that work.

I'm not sure what you consider mid-priced, but Hogue makes a nice, lightweight one (Hogue Ext-01) in S7 for about ~$270

[Cl1ff]

I never realized those Hogue things were S7, but I’ve known about them for a while. That’s cool.

Vivi’s idea of a big chopper in S7 is good.
There are very few chopper designs that I find interesting, but that Forester would seem pretty cool with better geometry.
It’s the only one of that series of knives where the shape and proportions make sense to me. The smaller ones just don’t look to be for what I like, despite my huge appreciation for recurves.

The only way S7 would make sense in an Enuff 2 design, to me, would be to significantly thicken up the materials and go for a heavy duty “survival knife” sort of thing with something like a high saber grind and 4 - 5mm stock. Maybe a “fixed blade Shaman” in the sense of its blade geometry being desired to accomplish similar performance (robust, but still cuts really well). The Enuff Salt already manages this in a shorter H1/H2 steel blade.

I’m a bit more interested in the K390 Enuff 2, though. I want one to eventually compare with my 15V Mule and intend both as my gateways into experiencing high hardness steels in a fixed blade.

Vivi, do you know about Work Tuff Gear’s knives?

[JD Spydo]

...I had a friend of mine who was very knowledgeable about tool steels tell me a few years back that S7 is almost perfect for striking tools like axes, Adzes, hatchets ect. I have noticed however that the custom made hawks, hatchets and axes that are made with S7 tool steel all have a very hefty price tag...

If you ever find a mid-priced axe or hatchet made of S7 would you please let me know? I'd like to try it. I say mid-priced, because I don't want to pay top dollar for a cutting tool I'll be mashing into rocks...! It seems I always find the rocks when using my axes and hatchets--often to chop roots. Who uses an axe to cut down a tree anymore...that's what chainsaws are for...but roots? Hard to beat an axe or a hatchet for that work.

Probably the cheapest ax/hawk I've see with S7 steel was in the $280 range. I've seen axes, hawks and camp axes made with S7 as high up as the $500 range. I'm guessing that heat treatment of S7 and the cost of the material both make it an expensive proposition.

I'm with you 100% thinking that the price range for striking tools made with S7 are truly out of reason to a degree. I've got an older Sears hatchet/camp ax that I've used on hunting trips since 1982 that has performed really nicely over the years and has served me well since the 1982 deer hunting season. I have no idea what steel that Sears/Craftsman used in their striking tools during that time slot but it's been a very good performer for me for several years. And I only paid around $33 for it when I bought in the early 80s. I doubt if an axe with an S7 blade would perform any better to justify such a lofty price tag.

[sal]

Hi LosOne,

Welcome to our forum.

We've used S7 in knife parts where we need toughness, but I don't think it would be a good steel for a small mode like the enough

I've compared knives of similar geometry in 1095 to that S7 scrapyard. It isn't close. Like comparing edge retention between 440c and ZDP289.

CATRA testing can only show a 2:1 difference between the lowest ranked and highest ranked steels in very controlled testing under very specific conditions.

We've been CATRA testing for 20+ years, with many steels, and we can get a variation by as much as 9:1

sal

[kennethsime]

I've compared knives of similar geometry in 1095 to that S7 scrapyard. It isn't close. Like comparing edge retention between 440c and ZDP289.

CATRA testing can only show a 2:1 difference between the lowest ranked and highest ranked steels in very controlled testing under very specific conditions.

We've been CATRA testing for 20+ years, with many steels, and we can get a variation by as much as 9:1

sal
[/quote]

Sal, can you give us an idea of what the high and lows are here? I assume the high will be Maxamet, Rex121, at about 70hrc. What’s on the low end?

I took a look at one of Larrin’s articles, but he doesn’t have anything less than 4:1 to Rex121.

[vivi]

Hi LosOne,

Welcome to our forum.

We've used S7 in knife parts where we need toughness, but I don't think it would be a good steel for a small mode like the enough

I've compared knives of similar geometry in 1095 to that S7 scrapyard. It isn't close. Like comparing edge retention between 440c and ZDP289.

CATRA testing can only show a 2:1 difference between the lowest ranked and highest ranked steels in very controlled testing under very specific conditions.

We've been CATRA testing for 20+ years, with many steels, and we can get a variation by as much as 9:1

sal

[vivi]

I've compared knives of similar geometry in 1095 to that S7 scrapyard. It isn't close. Like comparing edge retention between 440c and ZDP289.

CATRA testing can only show a 2:1 difference between the lowest ranked and highest ranked steels in very controlled testing under very specific conditions.

We've been CATRA testing for 20+ years, with many steels, and we can get a variation by as much as 9:1

sal

Sal, can you give us an idea of what the high and lows are here? I assume the high will be Maxamet, Rex121, at about 70hrc. What’s on the low end?

I took a look at one of Larrin’s articles, but he doesn’t have anything less than 4:1 to Rex121.

As far as the low end goes, I'm 100% sure they've tested Ti blades for salts. The gulf between that and their 15V production knives is massive, much less whatever off the wall heat treats they've tested on the high carbide steels.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

We've been CATRA testing for 20+ years, with many steels, and we can get a variation by as much as 9:1

sal

Looking at this again it's apparent to me that what I really meant to convey was roughly 2:1 when comparing from a given reference steel as I believe Larrin had presented in charts with his steel analysis articles. Where he had chosen I believe 440C as the 100 value and steels on the very high end of the wear resistance scale were maybe under 250 or so.

The lower end (wear resistance) of the range of steels when looking at wear resistance are still within that 0-100 range typically and therefore what you actually have is a similar ratio of difference from most any given steel compared to that 440C reference. The next question would be what is the point of reference in your 9:1 ratio?

The frame of reference is important as I would say the overwhelming majority of the steels Spyderco produces knives with would be no less than that 440C value roughly in wear resistance and therefore it is not some gargantuan proportion between those steels yet many will come on here and act as though they are seeing massive differences in the steels in general.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

Well, since vivi hasn't posted his scientific research and reams of data; and Traditional.Sharpening (curiously) hasn't posted his either, I guess I'll just note both their opinions as two interesting data points; and lean more on Larrin's research and data for the moment.

The difference is only one of us (me) is NOT making strong claims to performance. I stated a preference for what I feel makes a good balance of attributes in a working knife. I never said it would be a massively better knife than any other given steel. That is exactly what vivi has done in this thread, stated that S7 is vastly superior to 1095 in a large knife.

That is perfectly acceptable to do, he certainly has the right to his viewpoint. It must be understood however that unless one is given an audience which is entirely conforming and accepting of what others propose for performance, you will be be asked questions by knowledgeable individuals who want to understand more about your statements -- namely how you arrived at this conclusion and how much effort was made to be sure you could feel quite confident that no other factors may have lead to this conclusion.

Without being able to even answer basic questions about how he arrived at this beyond --- I used a bunch of 1095 knives at similar geometry to compare it to... it's difficult to learn anything at all from vivi's statements. I can see how these sorts of claims of extreme performance would hit certain members (who are susceptible to various drinking habits which will remain unnamed) in the feels and give them the warm and fuzzies.

[Cl1ff]

Anyway…

Maybe a Mule in S7 is something to consider?
We can do all of the testing anyone desires.

The Mules aren’t exactly good choppers, but you can attach them to a stick and hit some wood a number of times. After you do that with an S7 Mule and some other Mules in different steels, examine the edges.
I’d be willing to do that myself.

More destructive testing is not too worthwhile to me, but I’d buy two S7 Mules. One to test the edge and one to push to its limit.

Unfortunately, my sample of steels in a Mule isn’t too extensive yet, but I would share my methods so they could be replicated like a good science experiment.

I’m only suggesting this because I think Vivi’s observation of toughness affecting edge retention in choppers to be interesting. It seems like the metric affecting edge retention that has been the focus of extensive study recently is wear resistance and edge geometry.

I have no interest in humoring “traditional.sharpening”. They need to get over themselves.

Building a lever that swings a knife is also probably easier and more accessible than Catra or rope cut testing.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I have no interest in humoring “traditional.sharpening”. They need to get over themselves.

My friend, do you feel that your personal commentary towards me is really the type of contribution that the Spyderco forum needs?

The truly strange thing here is your last post makes reference to doing the types of things that I've mentioned (detailing testing procedures, etc). that would go a long way towards making some kind of basis for a strong conclusion to be formed beyond just casual observation and perhaps bias.

[Cl1ff]

I’m not usually inclined to provide personal commentary, and I somewhat regret doing so now.
However, I dislike the nature of “Traditional.Sharpening’s” comments (at least, as I perceive them).
I decided to be straightforward and succinct about it so that it does not waste everyone’s time or distract from the actual conversation.
I should have addressed the comments rather than the person, like I usually try to do. That’s on me.

I mentioned an S7 Mule because Sal has already addressed why it seems unlikely S7 would be seen on the Enuff. A Mule is a small model like the Enuff, but it’s also the platform where we get to test things out. That seems like the next best thing to the OP’s request and could be useful in gauging the interest there could be for a model that takes better advantage of S7’s properties .

[sal]

As Vivi mentioned, we're done many tests on many materials.

We purchased out CATRA 20+ years ago. I believe it was the 21st unit built. We've done updates, rebuilds, done many tests, changed our test mule pieces (what Larrin and Shawn call "coupons") and retested the materials with whole new sets of data. We've tested material that gave us less than 100 cuts and materials give us 950 cuts. We've even does special tests that went over 1.000 cuts.

That's part of our R&D division.

The 3 main factors for blade steels are Abrasion Resistance, Corrosion resistance and toughness. Most of our knives are smaller blades, so toughness is not as critical for the average customer. We recognize that it's important in edge survival, especially at thinner angles, but it's far more critical in larger blades used for impact function.

sal

[WilliamMunny]

Sal,

Does the need for toughness change with a SE blade even if it’s smaller, under 4”?

I was always under the impression that toughness was desirable in SE.

[sal]

Hi William,

Yes, in my opinion, toughness is more important with teeth as the tooth stands alone and doesn't have adjacent edge to support it. But the teeth rarely have to deal with impact, just support for the tooth.

sal

[cabfrank]

Which is definitely good, since we would prefer they didn't break or roll much. I was just cutting some roses with H1 and VG-10 SE, in fact.

[Wartstein]

Hi William,

Yes, in my opinion, toughness is more important with teeth as the tooth stands alone and doesn't have adjacent edge to support it. But the teeth rarely have to deal with impact, just support for the tooth.

sal

Apologies if this is too off topic.

But while I generally slightly prefer VG10 over LC200N and personally don´t need the uber-corrosion resistance of the latter - with teeth the very high toughness of LC (compared to VG10) is somewhat reassuring.

That´s (and not the corrosion resistance) is why I like that my Salt 2 SE (a real beater in my use) comes in LC (to be clear though: I actually never had any issues with VG10 in SE either).