"hard use"

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ladybug93
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"hard use"

#1

Post by ladybug93 »

i see a lot of people talk about hard use on this forum, and i'm guilty of it myself. i know most people want their folders to be great edc knives for slicey cutting tasks, but also want their knives to be capable of being pushed into harder use. sometimes this is referring to chamfered handle scales. sometimes it is referring to thinner or thicker blade stock. sometimes it's referring to different grinds edge angles. there are a lot of variables to balance and i think spyderco does a pretty good job at doing just that.

for example, my favorite model is the manix because it's a stellar performer and very comfortable in my hand. the blade is thick enough to where i won't feel like i need a stronger knife if i find myself in the outdoors having to process a little bit of wood for an emergency fire. but it's also not so overbuilt in the blade thickness that it can't handle cutting open a package or a letter i get in the mail. the handle is secure enough in multiple grips, with and without gloves, and i can open and close it easily enough under either of those circumstances as well. some would complain that the jimping is too aggressive for harder (or long term) use, but i find it gives me great purchase on the knife and won't leave me feeling like it's unsafe to use if i have to bear down on it. it's basically a perfect pocket knife for me and my notions of what might constitute realistic harder uses i would expect my edc to be able to handle.

so, this is what i'm wondering:

1. what type of use do you consider "hard use" for a folder, and when is a fixed blade a better option?
2. what type of "hard use" do you expect your folder to be able to withstand, and can your hands withstand the same work?
3. is "hard use" a factor of force, time, or a combination of the two?
4. how often do you actually use your knife hard, based on your definition of "hard use"?
5. do you think your definition of "hard use" is realistic?

i'm really curious about these questions. i know some people have provided insight to their knife usage on this forum before that made me rethink some things. however, typically when i see these claims, it's often a different tool that is required rather than a change in an edc knife design. so, i'd love to hear what you all think about "hard use" when you reference it, or as it relates to edc folding knife design.
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Wartstein
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Re: "hard use"

#2

Post by Wartstein »

Some random points concerning FOLDER (!) hard use for me and how I use knives:

- Outdoor wood tasks, like cutting deeply into also harder wood, twisting and turning the blade in it, kind of "prying" the pieces of wood apart
- Drilling holes with the tip (mostly in wood again)
- Very light batoning with engaged lock, light to medium batoning with disengaged lock (branches of up to two fingers thick, for producing kindling)
- Cutting man made, tough material like thick zip ties, sometimes having to force the blade into/under it, and turning if for cuts
- Lighter prying tasks, with tip or spine (when no other tool is available)
- Cutting sheeth metal, like soda cans
- ... And I am sure I could come up with a lot more

What does a folder ideally has to offer for me for "hard use"?

- And a bit stronger tip (example: Endura, with its "drop" towards the tip would be ok already, Stretch XL with its very fine tiṕ not so much)
- "Non hotspotty" handle / lock (comp.lock can create a hot spot in longer "hard use", CBBL, backlock, linerlock not in my experience). And I do think ALL Spyderco locks are strong enough for "hard use"
- "Locked in" feel (very subjective! Example :The Chap does lock my hand in, while he Native begings to "shift and roll" a bit in harder use)
- Blade stock thickness NOT important, rather blade shape, grind, kind of tip. Actually a thinner blade can be BETTER for "hard use", since it requires less force to be "pressed" through material.
My toughest hard use folder actually is my 2.5 mm blade stock SABRE grind ce Delica... and even the Chap (2mm, very sturdy built, for the thin blade strong tip) can be pretty good for hard use tasks, more so than lets say a Stretch XL.
- I also feel that for most "hard use" tasks a short to medium length blade is better, while LONG blades profit more from being thin and slicey


"Hard use": How often?

- Pretty often. Especially "wood work" in the outdoors.
I also just love to use my folders in all possible capacities, so I might do so even if a better suited tool would be at hand.

When a fixed blade?

- Real batoning. Light chopping. Heavy twisting and "prying".
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Re: "hard use"

#3

Post by Coastal »

I nearly asked a similar question recently, but didn't.

I would divide "hard use" into these categories:
1) Uses and/or environments that stress a blade steel to its limits in the ways that steels are usually compared (edge retention, toughness, edge stability, corrosion resistance)
2) Uses that stress a knife's design and components by imposing force in a direction other than that of the cut, or using a knife for something other than cutting (prying, twisting, digging and drilling for example)
3) Uses that become uncomfortable for the user if done with great force or duration, unless the knife's ergonomics are good (woodworking, yard work, scraping, etc.)

The only hard use my knives see these days is yard work. I use some of my knives in a salty environment, but I'm always in a situation where they can be rinsed off pretty quickly. Back in the day, I'd include ranch work and game processing, but that's about it. I don't do, and have never done, anything with a folder that could be done much better with a fixed blade.
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Re: "hard use"

#4

Post by Netherend »

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 2:59 pm
Some random points concerning FOLDER (!) hard use for me and how I use knives:

- Outdoor wood tasks, like cutting deeply into also harder wood, twisting and turning the blade in it, kind of "prying" the pieces of wood apart
- Drilling holes with the tip (mostly in wood again)
- Very light batoning with engaged lock, light to medium batoning with disengaged lock (branches of up to two fingers thick, for producing kindling)
- Cutting man made, tough material like thick zip ties, sometimes having to force the blade into/under it, and turning if for cuts
- Lighter prying tasks, with tip or spine (when no other tool is available)
- Cutting sheeth metal, like soda cans
- ... And I am sure I could come up with a lot more

[…

When a fixed blade?

- Real batoning. Light chopping. Heavy twisting and "prying".
This really sums it up.
For me it’s yard work/gardening and housework . Sometimes I use my folders to cut off branches off of my berry bushes to make clones. Sometimes I have to cut plastic when doing housework. Nothing extreme but I trust my Spyderco folders with it over many other folders I own.

I have used my Manix 2 g10 and my mules for fire sticking but that was just for fun.
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Evil D
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Re: "hard use"

#5

Post by Evil D »

1. I think there's a line between actual hard use and what constitutes abuse, and I think by definition the act of hard use is pushing the boundaries right up to the edge of that line but not crossing it. When there's a right tool for the job that won't get damaged but your pocket knife will get damaged I think you're crossing over into abuse territory. By definition a pocket knife is a Jack of all trades but I think people often expect too much. Types of use I'd say tasks that put heavy loads on the pivot and lock, like prying and batoning are definitely hard use. How much really depends on the knife, some can certainly take more than others. I think most examples of hard use can cross over into abuse very easily.

2. I expect my knife to handle as much force as I can put through a cut, *in a cutting direction*, meaning with a low or reasonable amount of lateral force. A folder should be able to carve a hardwood knot but if you start doing those cut/twist/scrape sort of motions where you're twisting the handle while making hard carving cuts, that puts a lot of stress into the lock and pivot and I'm more cautious of stuff like that but I should be able to put my entire arm strength into a straight line cut without concern for breaking the knife. I'm an average strength guy at best, I shouldn't be strong enough to break a pivot or lock by carving a stick or cutting through several layers of corrugated or whatever other materials you find that are difficult to cut.

Some people consider breaking blade tips to be a sign of weakness or not hard use worthy, I just say pick the right knife for the job. I'm not gonna try to drill holes in wood with a splinter picker blade and then be surprised when the tip breaks off. If I know my use will include hard stabbing/twisting with the tip I'll choose something like a Shaman with a broad leaf blade and a thicker blade grind. Oh, and chipping a tiny piece of what is basically "edge" off the very tip is not a big deal to me, it's so fragile on most knives it's bound to happen.

3. It's definitely a combination, this is true in probably everything in life. You can spray someone with a water hose and they'll be fine but the Grand Canyon was carved by flowing water. Obviously you're never going to break a knife if you cut 30 million slices of paper, but if you're carving hardwood all day everyday, it'll come down to how hard and how long you do it and I think the two definitely add up. That's not to say you can't break a knife in 60 seconds of use, it just depends on how hard you push it.

4. Often. Of course I do the usual daily mundane stuff, but any knife I carry gets used hard, not necessarily abused but definitely used vigorously because this type of use tells me more about ergonomics than opening a bag of chips does. Like for example the Compression Lock, I love it for casual use but hate it for extended periods of use. I wouldn't have learned that if I never use my knives hard enough to cross that line.

5. Absolutely, because I do it all the time and I've never broke a knife doing it. That tells me it's a very reasonable amount/level of hard use, and if anything it may be on the lower side of the spectrum. The most important thing to know for each one of us is that our knife is capable of surviving OUR OWN level of hard use, however we define it. Some guys are going to use their knives for things that I would think are flat out stupid, and they might break the knives that are plenty capable for my uses, or visa versa. It depends a lot on your real world needs.
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Blueboost
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Re: "hard use"

#6

Post by Blueboost »

I'd rather a bend then a break. But that's just the tip.

Hard use should be a thick blade down to the tip that doesn't bend. Something that can be poked into as well as split a log.

Making a hard use design is hard. I definitely haven't seen one from the co that peaks my interest in a while.

I like some girth in the belly and the tip.

My hard use Spyderco has been a C46 lum tanto since about 2002. I love the delicateness and usefulness of a pm2 per se, but do not like how it would easily give away the tip. I also do not like the down shaped tips of the current line up. A straight back design just looks better. While form follows function, the asthenic drastically matters. Especially given the need for the thumb hole. I was at the SMKW Spyderco booth this week on vacation and felt two things..

-Prices have gone out of control.
-design language has gone out of control.

It's time to bring it back to the basics. I don't know who is designing Spydercos right now but I'd love a shot at injecting some new ideas...
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Re: "hard use"

#7

Post by aicolainen »

I realize some people want and even need a folder that can endure harder use to some extent, but I can't really relate much.

1. what type of use do you consider "hard use" for a folder, and when is a fixed blade a better option?

If I use a folder hard, it's typically because I'm cutting through or against a media that is abrasive to the edge, e.g. metal screens or conductors in a cable, zip ties, push cut notches in wood, plastic and other hard materials, small bones in fish and birds. I still consider these folder tasks, as they don't require excessive lateral force, downward force, twisting, bending, etc.
2. what type of "hard use" do you expect your folder to be able to withstand, and can your hands withstand the same work?
I wouldn't expect much more than what I described above. Or.. I'd expect there to be some margin of course, so it could be pushed a bit further if I had to, but that's already outside the scope of what I would carry a folder for.
What my hands can withstand is rarely an issue with folders. It's a convenience tool. I typically care much more about carry comfort than possible hot spots during use. The only exception is the knives I carry for SAR work. While carry comfort is an important factor there too, it's important that the knife can be used effectively without unnecessary stops until all necessary cutting is completed. This even if I was tired, had cold or sore hands even before I started cutting. Fortunately it's not an activity that typically require a lot of knife work, but you never know, so it's something I keep in mind.
3. is "hard use" a factor of force, time, or a combination of the two?
One aspect of hard use that maybe isn't first thing that comes to mind when "hard use" is mentioned, is neglect. Deliberate neglect. This is why the Salt knives has been an important ingredient in my affinity for Spyderco. I'm not sure how to estimate or calculate the force of corrosive "pressure", but time is certainly a factor. No matter if it's soaked in sweat and water for weeks while hiking or sliding around in pool of blood and salt water in the bottom of my fishing kayak, it's a kind of hard use I want it to endure.
4. how often do you actually use your knife hard, based on your definition of "hard use"?
Weekly. But as explained, that's limited to my "definition" of hard use suitable for a folder.
For actual hard use I have fixed blades and utility knives.
5. do you think your definition of "hard use" is realistic?
Yes, but I don't think it's what other people commonly think of when they use that description.

To me a hard use folder is almost analogous to- and as irrelevant as a self defense folder. It's not something I think about. If the situation requires hard use or self defense, I'll use whatever I have to the best of my ability, suitable or not.
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Re: "hard use"

#8

Post by apollo »

Hard use is for me cutting wood or other tuff materials for a longer period of time while putting maximal force in to the cuts. This translates in my life mostly in to cutting wood branches or hard plastics.
Since i can not have fixed blades on me i need my folders to do the work.
And that is why i love the Manix family and the Shaman so much. They are build to do that job and do all other light work equally as wel.
While doing such hard use i need to feel not only that the knife does it easily and i am comfortable while cutting but also that i am safe while doing it.
Last week i was breaking down a branch between 3 to 4 cm diamater with the pm3 lw i was given as a gift at the Amsterdam meet. And well it did the job in the end but well let us say it was the first and the last time i will use it for that kind of work so i replaced it for my mini Manix immediately and did the rest of the work with a smile on my face.
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Re: "hard use"

#9

Post by WilliamMunny »

Personally I am not sure if any folder is capable of continued hard use, that is where full tang fixed blades step in. Folder fall into the light to medium use.

An example of hard use might be batoning. A good folder can do this sometimes but I think it would just break down over time.
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Re: "hard use"

#10

Post by prndltech »

If you break it, that’s abuse. If you’re surprised it didn’t break, that’s hard use. You learn something either way 😌
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Stuart Ackerman
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Re: "hard use"

#11

Post by Stuart Ackerman »

To find the limits, you sometimes have to break stuff... :)
I treat all my knives as if I want them to be used tomorrow.

If I have to baton, i use a folding saw and any small axe.
If I have to work in the sea, I use a Salt, or a Whale Blade.
If I have to cut rope, I use a serrated blade. ( or a Serrata :) )

I have broken lots of stuff over the years. so I have a good idea of what abuse is, for me...
You...might have bigger muscles, and so results will vary.
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Re: "hard use"

#12

Post by Ryder »

The hardest use I would give my constant companion, the Delica K390, is wood carving for an expedient fire while hiking.

It’s a valuable tool but 99% of time it’s a mobile food processor while hiking and traveling but it’s great for the kitchen too. I paired a pound of asparagus, reverse grip for cutting against the thumb last night. Best pairing knife I’ve ever had.

For cardboard never the pocket knife. I have several Olfas, 9mm and 18mm.

But in a pinch I expect the Delica in K390 to do. I would not twist it. That move indeed is hard use. It’s a folder.
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Re: "hard use"

#13

Post by ZrowsN1s »

Hard use for me is cutting difficult material that requires or results in high stress on the handle or blade. Side flex, torque, impact; on the blade or edge. Also high volume of cutting can constitute hard use to me. Am I cutting one thing or a hundred?

As others said, zip ties, hard plastics, wood, heavy gauge cardboard, abrasive material like carpet. Material that may result in accidental contact with hard surfaces, counter tops, metal, rocks, staples, you get the idea.
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Re: "hard use"

#14

Post by Bolster »

What about long use. That should accumulate to hard use, eventually. I may not drill or pry with the tip of my knife (shudder), but I use it for all other kinds of contractor (carpet/wood/thin aluminum/countertop/drywall/insulation stripping/plastics) cutting and scraping, for a decade or more.

prndltech wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:14 pm
If you break it, that’s abuse. If you’re surprised it didn’t break, that’s hard use.

A ha ha ha, that's great! Perfect answer. No more needs be said.
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Re: "hard use"

#15

Post by prndltech »

Bolster wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 8:49 pm
What about long use. That should accumulate to hard use, eventually. I may not drill or pry with the tip of my knife (shudder), but I use it for all other kinds of contractor (carpet/wood/thin aluminum/countertop/drywall/insulation stripping/plastics) cutting and scraping, for a decade or more.

prndltech wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 5:14 pm
If you break it, that’s abuse. If you’re surprised it didn’t break, that’s hard use.

A ha ha ha, that's great! Perfect answer. No more needs be said.
A pocket knife is a tool in your hand (or pocket), just like all the rest. I use hand tools professionally every day (much like yourself) and every mechanic and tool man out there knows what screwdrivers get used for besides driving screws … just sayin, some folks here would be quite surprised at what hard use an FFG delica will hold up to, the others know. :winking-tongue
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Re: "hard use"

#16

Post by aicolainen »

apollo wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:58 pm
8< -----
Since i can not have fixed blades on me i need my folders to do the work.
8< -----
I live under quite strict knife laws myself, so I know how irrational these rules can be, but even for Europe this level of restrictive rule is above and beyond what even I had imagined to be expected.

In many ways fixed blades enjoy wider acceptance around here than folding knives. There isn't really a long standing tradition for folders/pocket knives, so it could be their "newness" that makes regulators and people in general more vary of them.
Quite honestly I didn't realize the utility of folding knives myself until I got sidetracked while doing research for a gun acquisition some 6-7 years ago. Up until that point, if I needed a knife for anything, a fixed blade was the only option I'd even consider. Feels strange to revisit that mindset today, but I was just a product of my culture.

Since "discovering" folding knives around 2016/2017 my mindset around knives has been on a journey that currently is at a place quite opposite of where I started. Folding knives are now my default solution even for work and outdoor use. Simply because they are so much easier to carry and often more safe and practical in use (IMO). That's of course because I've (very) slowly come to the realization that most of my knife use isn't all that hard.
Even though my habits and mindset has changed a lot, my upbringing, culture and past experience is very much ingrained in me. So it still feels very wrong to just carry a folding knife if I know or expect I'd be doing fixed blade tasks.
I guess that's also a perfect segue to mention one of the great benefits I've stumbled upon through all this; and that's how well a folding knife and a fixed blade can complement each other. Having mostly settled on compact, linerless Salts, that added capability, practicality and diversity of combining a fixed blade with a folding knife comes with a very minimal weight and bulk penalty that's easily justifiable. This complimentary benefit is also why the so called hard use folders has very little appeal to me. IMO they give up many of the innate benefits of a folding knives only to achieve inferior fixed blade capabilities. I have no problem understanding that they appeal to many for their novelty, uniqueness, concealment preferences or what have you, but (sadly) your comment also underpins that there could also be a strong legal motivation to have interest in these knives.


Wow.. it didn't take much to get me started on a long ramble. I think I stayed within topic for the most part, but most will probably TL;DR right past it, so that doesn't really matter much either ;)
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Re: "hard use"

#17

Post by Evil D »

I'm surprised more companies haven't explored a locking pin system like the Extrema Ratio RAO uses. Even though I've seen some hard use tests that show that particular knife isn't really that strong, the idea still seems like it has potential. Even if a pin system doesn't necessarily make the knife stronger overall, if it took some of the force off the lock and pivot then it definitely has potential. I like how it's a secondary optional feature that I wouldn't have to use all the time, but could be useful when I know I'm about to do some stupid knife tricks.
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Re: "hard use"

#18

Post by Wartstein »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:30 pm
...

Some people consider breaking blade tips to be a sign of weakness or not hard use worthy, I just say pick the right knife for the job. I'm not gonna try to drill holes in wood with a splinter picker blade and then be surprised when the tip breaks off. If I know my use will include hard stabbing/twisting with the tip I'll choose something like a Shaman...

Good points in general and especially concerning the tip thing.

Just as an example: This is one of the main reasons why I said that the Stretch XL is not a "hard use" folder to me, but, yes and again, the Chap FRN IS.

The Stretch XL is a perfect EDC for 95% of all folder tasks and its fine tip actually extremely useful - but I am quite certain that tip would not hold up (even more so in SE chisel grind) to the stress I sometimes put blades/tips under in the outdoors, when drilling and "twisting" in wood.

The Chap though, with its though thin, but short (less tapering and leverage) blade and due to the broad leaf shape not too fine tip can take quite some abuse (the compared to the Stretch XL extremely sturdy overall built helps of course too.

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- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: "hard use"

#19

Post by JD Spydo »

When I personally speak of a "hard use" blade I'm referring to one that most people would define as a "Beater". I've got two older Spyderco folders I've used for really brutal jobs. Probably my favorite "Hard Use" blade is the 440V, full SE NATIVE model. There was an auto modification job I had way back in 2009. It was a job that required cutting some materials that could potentially destroy a knife. But that 440V, full SE Native endured everything I could throw at it.

I've used it on a couple of other nasty jobs in the past 5 years but like the old "TIMEX" commercial used to say "Takes A Licking But Keeps On Ticking" really applies to my 440V, full SE Native model. And Spyderco's full SE blades can endure a lot of abuse I discovered.

I also have to give honorable mention to my hallowed, plain edged M390 Military model. It has endured some tough treatment in the past 3 years.
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Re: "hard use"

#20

Post by curlyhairedboy »

For me, my understanding of hard use has centered more on the steel in question - how well will it stand up to what i'm doing? how damaged is it going to get? how difficult will it be to bring it back to 'nominal' condition?
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