Military 2 Discussion (Merged)

[mark greenman]

I've been excited for the Military 2 since I saw it at SHOT Show 2016-2017.

My only issue with it is the display photos show a shiny silver pocket clip, which I hope is not the case. Fingers crossed for a Black Clip, or option to purchase one.

There's really never a time when I want an attention getting pocket clip. And the scratchproof DLC coated pocket clip of my Military 1 was really a great feature; way better than the painted black clips on the Endura.

[Wartstein]

... I will say I will miss the linerlock. The Military linerlock may just be my favorite lock. So convenient and your hand is already where it needs to be to close. No shifting of the grip really. It is so well executed with a tight lock up.
...

Well said.

I wonder if people will miss and only start to really appreciate the advantages of a good Spydie linerlock when the M1 will perhaps be gone eventually

I also sometimes wonder how it would be if there was no linerlock at all and Spyderco invented that locktype right now for the Millie. Could imagine that some then would see it differently and actually praise the simplicity, convenience and overall safety in use of this new lock type. Don't know.

[Evil D]

... I will say I will miss the linerlock. The Military linerlock may just be my favorite lock. So convenient and your hand is already where it needs to be to close. No shifting of the grip really. It is so well executed with a tight lock up.
...

Well said.

I wonder if people will miss and only start to really appreciate the advantages of a good Spydie linerlock when the M1 will perhaps be gone eventually

I also sometimes wonder how it would be if there was no linerlock at all and Spyderco invented that locktype right now for the Millie. Could imagine that some then would see it differently and actually praise the simplicity, convenience and overall safety in use of this new lock type. Don't know.

If you search far enough back in my posts here, I posted about the idea of modifying a Military down into Para 2 size because back then I didn't feel comfortable with the size of the Military (it was also illegal for me at the time) and I didn't "get" the compression lock. Funny how things change.

And there are always people who discover models too late. There are a bunch of those models.... Captain, Ulize, Vesuvius, seems like lately a lot of people have been discovering the Goddard models.

And just for the record, or for a reminder, I'm one of the M1 loyalists...I may just be more accepting of what I think is to come. I hope I'm wrong, and they both stay in the lineup together and I would really love to see the M1 get at least a few more steel sprints.

My general feeling here is that the M2 is losing something that made the M1 special and I don't think it's necessarily just the lock change for me. The M1 is one of the last holdouts of the old Spyderco design along with the Police 1 and Harpy, that a person can still buy and see a little bit of how the company used to do things.

[JSumm]

I just think we need to have a moment of silence for the Golden linerlock. All the engineering and work behind designing it and improving it. Maybe bring the Polestar to Golden and keep the linerlock... Maybe... Something....

This may be controversial, but here we go. I do think for me the M2 will have better ergos. I like to grip behind the choil. Really clinching down which isn't often at all creates an awkward hotspot at the cutout for the linerlock. In this grip is where your first finger really digs in with a single thin G10 slab in its grasp. I like the PM2 better in a hard grip minus the fact that it is just a little too small behind the choil.

On the flip side thinking of the PM2, the CL gripped behind the choil is not as big of an issue to me. I think I put more pressure on the underside with my pointer finger.

Since I'm not often gripping like that it is not a huge issue, but definitely something I notice. Still for everyday, I would rather have that linerlock. Grip stays the same and you can beautifully close it as your hand is moving to your pocket.

[BeggarSo]

The only negative is see in the Military 2 is the use of the compression lock. I have never been a fane of liner locks but it has not stopped me from owning something like 7 Spyderco Military knives in different steels and edges.

That being said my Favorite lock Spyderco produces is the ball bearing lock used in the Manix and to my mind it would make an excellent addition to the Military line up and should have been used instead of the comp lock, which has come loose on me as it has on others like Vivi who posts here.

Say where is Vivi? Haven't seen him in a while. Guy has provided some amazing sharpening info.

Oh well perhaps in the next 20 years we will see this in a Military 3

[vandelay]

... I will say I will miss the linerlock. The Military linerlock may just be my favorite lock. So convenient and your hand is already where it needs to be to close. No shifting of the grip really. It is so well executed with a tight lock up.
...

Well said.

I wonder if people will miss and only start to really appreciate the advantages of a good Spydie linerlock when the M1 will perhaps be gone eventually

I also sometimes wonder how it would be if there was no linerlock at all and Spyderco invented that locktype right now for the Millie. Could imagine that some then would see it differently and actually praise the simplicity, convenience and overall safety in use of this new lock type. Don't know.

If they made a comp lock where the liner was flipped and you could disengage the lock from the front side, it would probably make liner locks obsolete. I tend to prefer the front-side lock disengagement, so I'd enjoy something like that.

[cjk]

I've been excited for the Military 2 since I saw it at SHOT Show 2016-2017.

My only issue with it is the display photos show a shiny silver pocket clip, which I hope is not the case. Fingers crossed for a Black Clip, or option to purchase one.

There's really never a time when I want an attention getting pocket clip. And the scratchproof DLC coated pocket clip of my Military 1 was really a great feature; way better than the painted black clips on the Endura.

One can call the Spyderco factory outlet and order replacement clips. I'm sure the DLC version will come with a black clip.

[JRinFL]

I'm guessing that those of us who do not favor the comp lock are a much smaller group than the ones who do favor the comp lock. Spyderco will make what sells and disco the rest, as we well know.

[Evil D]

I'm guessing that those of us who do not favor the comp lock are a much smaller group than the ones who do favor the comp lock. Spyderco will make what sells and disco the rest, as we well know.

The problem is that we who like the liner lock are not continuing to buy enough to keep it in production, and they're not making sprints and exclusives so it becomes stagnant. Doesn't make sense to keep it around for people who aren't actively buying it, gotta make the changes that will drive sales.

[kennethsime]

I’m still pretty darn excited for this knife, and I hope that the guys at Spydie HQ in Golden know that their work is valued.

Still debating whether or not to jump on the base model. I like S30V, but not as much as some other steels that Spyderco uses, and I don’t know how many of Military 2s I want to buy in the next two years.

[Wartstein]

I'm guessing that those of us who do not favor the comp lock are a much smaller group than the ones who do favor the comp lock. Spyderco will make what sells and disco the rest, as we well know.

Probably true, and if so certainly a clever and sensible move by Spyderco.

The question though is what are the reasons that the comp.lock is (probably) more popular and seen as an "improvement" (and not rather - a very good, not doubt! - "alternative") to the linerlock.

I think the group of people who actually use knives and then rationally and based on real experience come to the conclusion that they prefer either comp.lock (for good reasons!) or the linerlock (also for good reasons!) is pretty small (not on this forum, but generally)
(And as this thread shows once more: Among people who really use knives, the percentage who appreciate (the advantages of) the linerlock and/or even prefer it over the comp.lock actually seems not to be that small)

Many more (my guess) just see the comp.lock reflexively as "improvement", just cause they hear and read that all the time.
And never really actually try and compare unbiased for themselves, which lock type fits their needs and preferences and tasks better...and what kind of "safety" they really need.. and how much potential cons and pros REALLY matter for them personally.

Even Spyderco themselves market the Millie 2 among other things with the fact, that it has a stronger lock. And this certainly IS a fact, the comp.lock IS stronger than the linerlock technically speaking.
But for how many people, if any, this is actually of any relevance? (Talking about the good Millie linerlock of course).
Same goes for the "but, but, but fingers out of the blade path" thing imo. With a comp.lock one STILL has to MOVE the fingers deliberately out of the blade path before doing that pinch grip method (that also is rather unsafe concerning how the knife sits in hand).
With a linerlock Millie, in the first phase of the closing, one almost CAN`T put the fingers in the path of the actual edge - actuating the locktab is almost inevitably linked to that the finger that does so would get hit by the choil, not the edge, and thus keeps all other fingers safe.

Just examples, food for thought, and motivation for people to think and try unbiased for themselves and look at a broader picture.
For example: Is the increased strength of the comp.lock something that MY PERSONAL experience tells me I´ll ever need or not?
And is it worth "buying" potential other disadvantages for it? (Like less natural closing, making this harder with gloves and so on).

Important: This is NOT a comp.lock bashing!!! It is a great and ingenious design indeed. It´s just an invitation to start thinking from scratch, and weighing pros and cons honestly and unbiased in regard to how "severe" they really are in the own, individual use of a knife and how much they really matter or not.

[JSumm]

The compression lock is a stronger lock if we are to believe what Spyderco tells us about their locks. I think it is safe to say that is true. I also believe the compression lock is an improvement to locks in the knife world. I'm positive it sells better and it is a good business decision on Spyderco's part. I just selfishly really like what they have done to the linerlock in Golden and selfishly wish we could see more of it. Even if the Polestar moved to Golden as Sal once mentioned as a possibility, I believe they would not take what they learned from the Military and apply it to that model. In fact, they could probably put a CL on it and it would sell like hotcakes. Just a bummer. I wish we could see it implemented in a few other models.

[cabfrank]

So much discussion about these two knives shows our passion. I feel like I should get a Military now, while I can, and a Military 2, when I can. I think they would both be on the large side for me, but I want them.

[BeggarSo]

So much discussion about these two knives shows our passion. I feel like I should get a Military now, while I can, and a Military 2, when I can. I think they would both be on the large side for me, but I want them.

I think you should also the Miitary in its current form is likely the last CQI it will ever see and therefore fully matured and thought out and brought to final stage of it's evolution. It is truly Iconic.

The Military 2 which has taken a long time to come out is still likely to go through some CQI. I do think that this long wait has been on purpose so they are avoiding CQI Issues.

BTW what is the differenced in Comp Lock revisions? I remember reading something about changes to the comp lock but nothing was really described.

@EvilD I am not so certain about the lack of interest in the Military line it seems after the REX45 releases the model pretty much stopped being available anywhere in any steel prior to that it was still selling S90V models to folks like me as well as CTS-204P.

In my observation it was a move on purpose to take it off the market and over time replace it, with the Military 2.

[Evil D]

@EvilD I am not so certain about the lack of interest in the Military line it seems after the REX45 releases the model pretty much stopped being available anywhere in any steel prior to that it was still selling S90V models to folks like me as well as CTS-204P.

In my observation it was a move on purpose to take it off the market and over time replace it, with the Military 2.

That may well be, and would be a sign that they will not coexist too. Also people want what they can't have so lack of availability has probably churned up interest, and when the 2 is available there will definitely be people who may have been interested in the 1 that will consider the 2.

[Wartstein]

The compression lock is a stronger lock if we are to believe what Spyderco tells us about their locks. I think it is safe to say that is true. I also believe the compression lock is an improvement to locks in the knife world. I'm positive it sells better and it is a good business decision on Spyderco's part. I just selfishly really like what they have done to the linerlock in Golden and selfishly wish we could see more of it. Even if the Polestar moved to Golden as Sal once mentioned as a possibility, I believe they would not take what they learned from the Military and apply it to that model. In fact, they could probably put a CL on it and it would sell like hotcakes. Just a bummer. I wish we could see it implemented in a few other models.

The comp.lock certainly is stronger - but as said, the question is does that point really have any practical relevance when it comes to M1 "vs" M2?

In other words: How many are out there on them a Millie linerlock ever failed because it was not strong enough?
I figure pretty close to zero...

If, to take completely random fictional numbers, the M1 linerlock is let's say 5 times stronger than anyone will ever need, then would the fact that another lock is 6 times stronger than anyone will ever need really be a huge argument for the latter ? (other features very well might be, but imo not the strength-thing)

To me it's mostly marketing and endless repetitions that make many believe the even higher strength of the comp.lock would be something they personally really need in their own use.

Still: Of course Spydercos marketing is wise - completely unterstandable that they focus on their own (and very good) lock.

[Evil D]

The question though is what are the reasons that the comp.lock is (probably) more popular and seen as an "improvement" (and not rather - a very good, not doubt! - "alternative") to the linerlock.

I think it's " fidgetability" and the claims that a compression lock is stronger. It doesn't even matter if one is stronger than the other, because Sal has said himself that they can engineer any lock to be however strong they choose to make it, so theoretically they could make both locks the same strength, but in the end the perception and feeling that one is stronger than the other helps to sell it.

The fidget factor is absolutely huge though, people like dropping blades shut, and while we can do something similar with a liner lock, it's just not the same action.




Really I think we are also overthinking all of this lock vs lock stuff. I don't think it has anything to do with the liner lock not being good or popular, I think it has everything to do with the massive success that the Para 2 has been, and I think you can see the proof of that in how similar the Military 2 is to the Para 2. You have to consider they could have made the Paramilitary 1 and 2 with the exact same liner lock as the Military but they didn't. Surely the compression lock is a big part of the Para 2's success.

[aicolainen]

I have no doubt the CL is stronger than a liner lock made within the same constraints regarding materials and dimensions. It’s a clever design and its success is indeed deserved.

A PM2 was among the three knives I bought when I first dived head first into the Spyderco pond. It was indeed something different and a breath of fresh air in my then limited collection of knives.
I was still new to carrying pocket knives back then, so my tastes and preferences wasn’t very evolved yet. As it turned out the PM2 moved on to a new home. I liked to use it and handle it, but it was more knife than I needed and it wasn’t a joy to carry in pocket.

I have done some thinking around locks and what I think is the best use case for each.
It’s all a bit hypothetical since I have no experience or training in using knives for self defense, but that’s where I’ve found the CL and CBBL to make the most sense (fidgeting not considered). Both very fast and predictable to deploy, with a rock solid lock. Neither is a favorite when it comes to closing, but I assume that’s the least important part of a self defense scenario.

For my typical use, I only need a folding knife to be reasonably strong and other characteristics, like ease of handling under a wide range of conditions, are more important to me.
I’m very much on the fence about getting a military as it’s too big to see any regular use, but if I choose to get one the OG Millie feels like the better option for me.
And I can easily understand why a lot of potential buyers would feel differently.

[brancron]

I hate to be a Debbie Downer but the M1's days are coming to a close. Gotta be realistic guys. For a small period of time you could also buy a Paramilitary and a Para 2 at the same time but it didn't last long. I'd get your M1 purchases squared away now while you can and start embracing the future.

I am a recent Military convert. For the longest time I didn't even consider getting one because I thought it was too big. Boy was I wrong. I picked up my first one (BG42 and carbon fiber) last month and quickly realized that I vastly prefer it to the PM2. In fact, no offense to the PM2 but I just can't pick one up anymore without the feeling that it's overshadowed by its big brother.

Following your advice I just picked up a second Military, a pre-2016 black-coated S30V one (with the backspacer and no torx on the "show" side pivot).

Looking at the Spydiewiki I am aghast at all the cool versions I've missed over the years!

[Josh Crutchley]

i think i would really like a framelock military with 15v or magnacut and a g10 or micarta scale. i wasn't interested in s90v/cf, but i really like that military configuration.

Did you check out BBB's Military 2 video from Shot Show?
https://youtu.be/XABs6_LR8GI