BHQ Shaman M4 Assembly QC issues?

[SpyderForLyfe]

I don't think anyone is missing your point. We've got the point hundreds of times over. What you don't seem to get is in manufacturing there are levels of tolerance for these sorts of things, you spent $200 on this knife not $2000, and what's really happening with these posts is busting the chops of a person who doesn't get enough credit for the work they do the rest of the thousands of times they do it perfectly.


And sincerely, I am sorry. I don't mean all this towards you specifically, your post really wasn't even that bad, but that's not the point. It's high time somebody started sticking up for the people actually doing the work. It's not even about being a "Spyderco fanboy" anymore , it's about being a "hard working employee fanboy" thing. If the issue is something that the average user can fix, then geez just fix it and let it go. Feedback is great and all but again...empathy. Do you or anyone honestly think you could do better? If so put in your application and prove it.

Oh, and on the other side of this coin let's also complain about production delays so that the management and people who are being held accountable for production goals get pressured and then they go back to that person assembling knives and tell them to pick up the pace because someone on the forum has had to wait two months for the knife they were promised in the reveal. Because we don't just want it absolutely flawless but we also want it in our hands yesterday. Make it perfect and make it impossibly fast because "muh money" demands it.

So I took everyone's comments about not adding you to my ignore list into consideration and saw this.

Dude, I didn't come in here guns blazing, calling employee names, swearing, being rude... Quite the contrary if you actually read my original post. I was extremely polite and simply POINTED. OUT. AN. ISSUE. That's it. That's all I did. I'm sincerely sorry if that offended you, but I did not come here to walk on egg shells or worry about if my words are "the last straw".

Maybe $250 isn't a lot of money to you, but it is to some of us who work hard and value our money. Most of the Spydercos I buy have zero issues out of the box. This is clearly a problem that is plaguing the Shaman M4 BHQ run and I thought, hey, maybe someone from Spyderco is watching and they'd like to know about it because they care about their reputation and are well known for "CQI" (their term, not mine). ****, I've bought gas station knives that didn't have this much blade play.

You know as well as I do that if they put "Has blade play, is off center, comes with loose screws" in the description, few people would make the purchase. The day Sal gets on the air and says "We take pride in shipping knives with blade play" then I'll lose my right to "complain" about these issues.

When you pay for a knife, you expect it to be properly assembled. PERIOD. The cost of the knife is irrelevant, whether it's $200, $2000, or $20.

You complain about having to read posts like mine. Well, now you know that I'm one of those mean, awful, evil people that will point out concerns and issues... so maybe you would be better off adding me to YOUR ignore list.

So no, your "wealth of knowledge" is not worth having to read your whining about people bringing up VALID CONCERNS. You can stay on my ignore list.

[Mushroom]

Ya know what....to be completely blunt honest on this forum just for once...

What about that thread where you were defending complaining about blade centering? You’re singing a whole different tune in this thread for some reason.

Here’s the thread - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88869


Discussing first impressions and blade centering on a Spyderco discussion forum should not be offensive to you and you certainly don’t need to be offended on Sal’s behalf. You made quite the mountain out of a molehill in this thread over something you agreed with just six months ago.

———

SpyderForLyfe, good to hear you are happy with your new Shaman!

[Evil D]

I don't know how many times I need to say it's not all directed at you personally, I guess once more for good measure but honestly the most you post the more I just see over entitlement so maybe ignoring each other is for the best. Everyone can just continue blasting the "company" with your "concerns" and ignore the poor bastard who's trying their best because your money is more important than their best efforts and everything you do is flawless and perfect.

[Evil D]

Ya know what....to be completely blunt honest on this forum just for once...

What about that thread where you were defending complaining about blade centering? You’re singing a whole different tune in this thread for some reason.

Here’s the thread - viewtopic.php?f=2&t=88869


Discussing first impressions and blade centering on a Spyderco discussion forum should not be offensive to you and you certainly don’t need to be offended on Sal’s behalf. You made quite the mountain out of a molehill in this thread over something you agreed with just six months ago.

———

SpyderForLyfe, good to hear you are happy with your new Shaman!

You're right, I'm just being a dick. Ignore me.

[VooDooChild]

I get it, but I also have no problem adjusting my knives.

They are tools after all. If you actually use them then they will need to be adjusted and maintained eventually. Unless somebody is treating $150 plus knives as a wearout throwaway commodity, I dont.

While it is frustrating to make adjustments out of the box, there are just certain things that need an initial "tuning" and follow up "tunings".

I just wish Seki would use a little locktite. Always loose screws, always.

Also... bigger torx screw heads, Please...

[VooDooChild]

To me, out of adjustment is definitely not a quality problem. I love getting a knife that I have to tinker with to make perfect for ME.

Honestly, if there was a “ship disassembled” option, I’d check that box every time.

Laughs in parata.
That thing was not fun to reassemble.

[SpyderForLyfe]

To me, out of adjustment is definitely not a quality problem. I love getting a knife that I have to tinker with to make perfect for ME.

Honestly, if there was a “ship disassembled” option, I’d check that box every time.

Laughs in parata.
That thing was not fun to reassemble.

Good lord, the Parata... I am NOT a fan of linerless knives to begin with, but that weird S-curve spring assembly is a nightmare. I just know if I tried to take one apart, that spring would launch itself into another dimension and I'd never see it again. The only good thing about disassembling a Parata is it gives you a new appreciation for how easy the Manix family is to service by comparison.

[Danvp]

Thanks for sharing. The blade play on my Shaman is up and down in the direction of opening and closing. The tip moves 0,1 inch (3 mm). Centering is not the issue in this case. I hope you found a solution for the blade play as well. Much appreciated.

Ohhhh gotcha, now I understand. Hmmm that could be wear on the compression lock, maybe? 3mm seems like a LOT of play. Do you have another Shaman you can use? I recommend swapping blades with another Shaman (if you can) and that will help you determine where the problem is by process of elimination.

It is my only Shaman at the moment. Am waiting for another with a handle and/or steel i like. In the mean time i use and enjoy the Z-wear. The bladeplay is gone when fully opened, so therefor safe to use. Thanks for the advice. Will try swapping the blade when i buy another Shaman.

[steelcity16]

There is a reason that they are assembled with Torx screws and not pinned. I tweak every new knife to my desired level of play/tightness. I've never not been able to easily and quickly dial in any of the 100+ Spyderco's I have owned.

[ZrowsN1s]

This is just my experience here but... My BHQ Shaman was great. Out of 80ish Spydies I've had, I've only had issues with 5. Out of my five Shaman Sprints/Exclusives, all have been perfect. Compared to other companies I buy from, Spyderco's QC is much better. And of those 5, I fixed 2 myself, sent 2 back, sold 1.

I think my complaints were very uneven grind on the Wharncliffe Hap40 sprint (kept it, was a great knife despite the aesthetic issue). Rhino had open and closing action that wasn't as free swinging as I wanted(sold it, if I had that knife today, I could have fixed it. ). AEBL Urban with a kick too tall and a sharp spydie hole (just fixed myself with a sharpmaker fine stone). Damascus Urban with a bad spring tension while closed (wasn't right and couldn't fix it, sent it back). Last was a Pkal that was over tightened to the point of ridiculous (I think this was a case of a returned knife being sold as new, sent it back to where I bought it).

My point being that as a whole Spyderco doesn't have QC issues. They take greater care than most in my experience. Taking steps like shipping knives to the US so they can do the QC in house. I've had more problems from more expensive knife makers, who make waaay smaller runs than Spyderco. There is a reason the majority of my knives are Spyderco.

I have definitely vented my frustration with getting some knives that didn't meet expectations. Often they are expensive, and in the case of Sprints and Exclusives, sending it back means missing out on the model as replacements aren't available. I remember complaining loudly about both Urbans, I fixed one and I got a replacement for the other that was perfect and climbed down off the clock tower, but I got a little wound up. Questioned Maniago's ability to make knives, said I wasn't going to buy from that factory anymore.... got a little carried away. I had been wanting that knife, it was expensive, and I was afraid I was going to miss my chance at getting one (They stayed in stock longer than I thought they would).

Anyways... I would say in general if you get a knife that doesn't meet your expectations... if you can fix it, fix it. If not send it back. But I understand that the Sprint/Exclusive aspect complicates this. I also understand venting your frustrations on the forum. I have also seen my share of ridiculous complaints.

[JRinFL]

I'm not taking sides.

I will remind everyone that Sal and Spyderco ask for feedback, good or bad.

Everyone take a breath and back away from the big red Nuke button.

[Mystery Flavor]

And sincerely, I am sorry. I don't mean all this towards you specifically, your post really wasn't even that bad, but that's not the point.

Hey Evil D, The post wasn't bad at all. It wasn't even slightly bad like you suggest. It is worth saying that the first post and the whole intent of the thread seemed 100% perfectly fine and friendly. It sounds like a thoughtful person trying to be helpful. The fact that more people are not calling out what has transpired in the rest of this thread is amazing to me. Check this quote and can anyone tell me what was "bad" or wrong or not okay about the first post???

This seems like yet another example of certain people on this forum not having self control over which threads they read or reply to. And then the odd attempts of others talking about the guy's knowledge of serrations etc... as if other people can't answer the same questions.

It seems like a few people are "needing" so badly for this forum to be ONLY the way they want it to be. Truly amazing in a sad way. Don't you guys realize you are helping make this place even more of an echo-chamber with this mindset? Such hostility to a genuinely friendly seeming post is very strange. Some forums would have taken much different action by now regardless of the guy posting over 25,000 times and being here 12 years. It's very interesting noticing how ironic things are when you can take a step back and look honestly.

Now back to the actual point of the thread: I think it's a fair warning/heads up to others. Spyderco should be accountable and should always be trying to improve in realistic ways. Honest feedback is good for the community and for spyderco.

[TkoK83Spy]

On the part about serrations, you must not hang around here often. David has a few different threads that are extremely detailed and with many photos of various tests. His love, devotion and gained knowledge about serrations is appreciated enough that even Sal gave him an SE Shaman with a personal message. David isn't just fluff.

Now, I'm not saying the OP doesn't have knowledge of serrations, but if he has questions...David's threads are the ones to follow and he's the man to ask around here. I'll take all that he has posted here, over word of mouth or just from someone rambling on youtube.

[phillydownsouth]

I was going to buy a Shaman Exclusive from Blade HQ and read the reviews. I was curious if this was a bigger issue so came over here to see if there was anything showing a bigger issue. After reading I think I am going to pass on the Blade Hq exclusive M4. This is why I use the forum, to see what people are saying and make my own decision. We all should agree on that.. This is why I am here.. Thanks to all for your opinions, if I agree or not, I know the right people are seeing this.

[Ramonade]

I love when what I do not love about a knife can be tuned by a disassembly / reassembly and 15 minutes of tinkering !
It's when you can't do anything about it that it sucks

[SpyderGrill]

I will add my story here without trying to cause any controversy.

I know how the action should be as I have 3 others that are flawless.

I bought the first release Satin Blade. Right out of the box the action was gritty and had side to side blade play. I took it apart a couple times, cleaned it and oiled. It just wasnt as smooth as my other ones.

I read here or some place about a burr on the liner so I took it apart again and yes, there was a burr where the pivot hole in the liner was. I cleaned that up and put it back together, and it was the same.

Could not get it dialed in for a smooth action and no blade play.

If I adjusted the pivot for a nice action I had side to side blade play. Tighten it up to get rid of it the action sucked.

Took it apart again and with a loupe I could see a tiny burr on the pivot hole. I used a sharpmaker rod to file it down, lubed the washers, lock tighted it, and its perfect now

[Michal O]

Month ago I had to completely dissasemble regular Shaman. Burrs left on pivot holes caused blade play. But I bought it knowing that fact, for less money.

Also I think that some Chinese based companies raised the bar in fit & finish category for ~$200 folders so high, that sometimes quality in new USA/Japan made knife might be like cold shower. 10 years ago I was ok with some things I had to fix after factory in Benchmade/Spyderco, now I'm less willing to. Anyway I still like Spyderco as family company with values.

PS I'm blue collar myself.

[Harkwit]

You lost me at "YouTube research". Even if there are 50 videos pointing this out, your sample size is tiny.

Keep in mind these knives are assembled by humans. Are you 100% perfect at your job 100% of the time? If it's just an assembly issue that you can and did fix and isn't a manufacturing defect, then I'd say it's not a big deal. Centering can be tweaked, screws can be tightened. Be happy it's not a warped blade or uneven grind or something that you can't easily fix.

Boy there's always one.

In case you missed the tone of my post, it was informative, not critical. I am aware that they are built by humans, but it seems that this particular batch has a higher rate of assembly QC issues than most spyderco products.

As for "YouTube research" that's an expression... Meaning I didn't put a ton of effort into actual research, so I was acknowledging that it wasn't extensive. That's why I put "YouTube research" and not simply "research".

I also acknowledged that all of the issues can be easily corrected. You're simply repeating what I originally wrote.

I posted it because I wanted spyderco aware of it so they can decide if it's an issue they need to investigate.

You seem very defensive over this. Your attitude of "shut up and take what they give you and be grateful for it" as if I got it for free or something is unacceptable. If I'm paying north of $250 for a knife, I'm going to have some basic expectations.

You get that one of the major points of this message board is for people to voice concerns, right?

Ya know what....to be completely blunt honest on this forum just for once...


I am so sick of reading about the most trivial issues with knives that I often think about logging out and not coming back. It's getting so ridiculous. Every other day it's some BS about blade centering or blade play and the most minute anal retentive details, people have gotten so unrealistic with their expectations and it's just well beyond being old and tired and it's getting to where this forum is just a place to complain. If I seem defense it's because I've been a blue collar worker my entire life and I understand what it feels like to work your *** off making knives only to see people complaining about the tiniest little details, and they're almost always details like this that the user can easily fix so why complain about it? If it really mattered you'd send it back to Golden and let them deal with it. If I worked for this company there's no way in **** I'd ever come to this forum because it would just crush my spirit. I honestly don't know how Sal has tolerated it for this long, he seriously is a saint and has the patience of a zen master.


Like I said, your sample size is not large enough to make claims like this. Even in a smallish ~1200 piece sprint, how many have you actually seen with this "issue"? 5? 50? Out of the total batch ran, that's not a large enough sample size to make claims about flaws when the vast majority of the rest of them don't have any issues. People see a couple videos or comments on forums that match their own and they run with it like it's the absolute fact, it just doesn't work that way. How many people have no issues at all? Are we operating by the "one apple spoils the bunch" mentality?

I highly HIGHLY doubt that posting on this forum will get the feedback to where it needs to go, and if it does make it then there is a human being working long shifts muttering to themselves "I'd like to see YOU come your *** into this factory and turn these tiny screws all day and assemble hundreds of knives a day and let's see YOU make the fit and finish and blade centering absolutely perfect on each and every one of them" and they're laughing at these complaints because they're just unrealistic.

I'm just saying, if it's an assembly issue and not a manufacturing issue maybe just try to have some empathy sometimes. As a person who is constantly judged by my performance at work and constantly dealing with over entitled unrealistic opinions from people who couldn't do my job better than I do it if their lives depended on it.......empathy.


And I'm sorry, I don't mean this crap towards solely you, I guess it's just been building up for a while and you're that final piece of straw.

Having also experienced QC woes with a BladeHQ shaman that I could *not* fix (vertical play, and spyderco warranty did not help me out), I can empathize with OP's point.

I'd agree with you 100% if we were talking about a simple tool to be used and eventually discarded for a new one.

... But these knives are commanding over $200.

Many of Spyderco's offerings are stemming far beyond the curve of diminishing returns in terms of their value, that they're steadily becoming 'functional art', and I think having cases like mine or OP's being brought to light are important, because even if it is a small sample size, it's still a relevant sample size.

If over 50 people are experiencing blade play, that's not an insignificant number of bummed pivots/lockfaces/stop pins. Because you're also not accounting for the people who either don't care about the blade play, just don't notice, or have silently returned the knives to BladeHQ without telling anybody (The BladeHQ rep I spoke to admitted that this is a common problem they're seeing, and they've been getting a lot of returns.)

If you think blade play/centering/aesthetic points are trivial things for a product that commands the price 60 big macs, that's your prerogative. But when we're getting companies doing these things better, at cheaper prices (regardless of the nationality involved, before you bring up china), it's not unreasonable to at least hope to see the same level of standards put into knives being built by our home team. It frustrates us because we love Spyderco and know they can do better; taichung is a shining example of this. But unfortunately there's no taichung shaman. (and yes I know, different factory, different production, but they meet and exceed Spyderco's quality standards nearly every time)

I also don't know that your painting of Spyderco's workforce as a bunch of disgruntled assembly workers going "those **** ungrateful lil shits don't know how hard I got it" is productive, because I imagine many of them would be personally disappointed if their work ended up disrupting the end user's experience with their product (and if they aren't, why haven't they looked for a new job yet?). Especially if many of these issues could be corrected with new loctite standards, new assembly machines, etc.

Tl;dr: just because you don't see these things as meaningful issues, does not mean other people are fools for feeling like they are. These are not $5 milwaukee boxcutters. We have long stretched beyond the bare idea of 'tool' and into 'functional art'.

[Vaugith]

Amen harkwit. We are not sitting here trying to whine and complain. We are bringing issues to attention that can be resolved. Does Spyderco not advertise their devotion to continuous quality improvement? Without being familiar with the assembly process I would hope it's not too expensive or a huge change in process to notify assemblers of some minor issues to be aware of and some possible fixes. Look for burrs on pivot hole on liner. Apply corrosion protective oil/chemical to stop pin ends. In taichung, supply Loctite to assemblers and instruct on proper amounts to use and where. It doesn't seem this would add a huge cost to the assembly process.