Falling out of love with serrations

[Joshua J.]

For a while there I carried SE every day. Loved it.

Since switching my PE knives from 1000+ grit to 200-300 grit, I've stopped loving it.

I carry SE from time to time as a way to check my own biases and see if I'm missing something.

I like how thin they come ground from factory. And that's about it these days.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a cutting job that I'd prefer to use a SE knife for instead of a coarsely edged PE knife.

Those coarse PE edges seem to have all the advantages and none of the drawbacks.

They grab materials and don't slip around at all like SE, but there's no snagging.

Repairing a damaged edge is so much easier, as is finding a wide variety of abrasives to use.

I used to hate SE and only carry PE. Then a Pacific Salt 1 SE opened my eyes and I was more 50/50 on what I'd carry. Now I find myself wanting to carry PE again every day.

Try sharpening SE with a Benchstone, when it takes exactly the same amount of time to sharpen SE as it does PE, and with the same equipment, it takes 99% of the fatigue out of using an SE blade.

It won't work on all SE blades since you'll be mostly grinding flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations, so any coated blades are practically out of the question, and flat grind blades are a tad more difficult to grind evenly, but the sabre grind on the SE Endura is just about perfect.

[wrdwrght]

I have never been in love with the Spyderedge, but I certainly respect it.

I have this edge in a Pacific Salt, Tasman Salt, Spyderhawk Salt, Manbug Salt, Ladybug Hawkbill Salt, Enuff Salt, Assist, and Rock Jumper.

In my mind, each covers extreme cutting situations where a gentle plain-edge slice, which I do enjoy most, might fail, or require more effort than there is time.

[vivi]

Try sharpening SE with a Benchstone, when it takes exactly the same amount of time to sharpen SE as it does PE, and with the same equipment, it takes 99% of the fatigue out of using an SE blade.

It won't work on all SE blades since you'll be mostly grinding flat with the primary bevel on the back side of the serrations, so any coated blades are practically out of the question, and flat grind blades are a tad more difficult to grind evenly, but the sabre grind on the SE Endura is just about perfect.

Sharpening speed isn't why I prefer PE to SE. I can sharpen SE fast enough with a single sharpmaker rod in my left hand. That's how I touch up my zcut at work.

[JRinFL]

I have never been in love with the Spyderedge, but I certainly respect it.

That succinctly sums it up for me as well.

[James Y]

I started out in Spyderco knives as a PE man. Then I tried SE and really liked it. I do prefer SE for certain tasks I do, especially in yard work. And there was a period of a few years (several years back) where I carried SE almost exclusively. However, my main EDC knives when I'm out and about in recent years have been PE. Sometimes I'll carry an SE as a backup blade.

Jim

[tangent]

I agree with you, Vivi. I like thin Spyderco serrated edges for some tasks in the kitchen, but I have no need for a serrated edge in most other applications.

[zuludelta]

My favourite thing about SE is that it keeps a working edge longer relative to a PE blade in the same steel. Well ground SE in thin blade stock is great for getting the most out of steels that have lower quantified edge retention (e.g., 8Cr13MoV, VG-10, BD1N, LC200N) compared to high-vanadium content particle metallurgy "super steels".

I kind of get that with the really coarse edges. I wouldn't dream of carrying a 2,000 grit edged knife that had no shaving capability. But my 200 grit edges can remain useful for weeks past that point.

I've been using coarse PE edges myself for a few years now in my work knives, so I can & do relate to the overall sentiment of your original post. I think a coarse PE (particularly in combination with high-vanadium content PM steels), at least in my use cases & personal preference, offers a good balance of convenience (wrt sharpening), performance, and subjective aesthetics.

I will frequently carry a flat-ground SE folder for work, though (usually an SE Caribbean or a recently-purchased Byrd Knives Meadowlark 2 Wharncliffe... it's an underrated, overlooked light & compact workhorse)—I just find SE to be really good at cutting pallet straps & all manner of ropes.

[cabfrank]

Uncontroversially, I plan to always have both edges. Another SE is the next priority though.

[Coastal]

Here is the list of my uses for SE:
1) Gardening
2) PFD knife for kayaking

And here is my list for PE:
1) Everything else

And yet my reprofiled OG yellow Pacific SE with a smoothed-out, rounded, super-refined (for me), Evil-D edge, cuts like nothing I've seen. It cuts so well I'm almost afraid to use it, for fear of dulling it. The problem is, it took me days of off-and-on work to create that edge. Whereas I can create a vivi-edge, including a reprofiling step, in minutes, maybe an hour at most, depending on the steel, using a guided system. Freehanding is probably even faster, but I'm not up to it yet.

The vivi edge is so easy to create, and so good, it makes me wonder if I'll ever use anything else, even if I could make a technically "sharper" or "cuttier" edge by rounding serrations or polishing a plain edge. I do enjoy experimenting, but man, my vivi-edged Mules and Pacifics glide through everything I cut -- food, cardboard, plastic, paper -- so easily I almost giggle when I use them.

A bit of personal knife history that I've seen from fellow forumites, too: I noticed years ago that when I blew off any attempt at grit progression, my knife cut better. Like someone else said, I felt guilty doing it. Intuitively I knew it was the micro-serrations of a "toothy" edge, but I never codified it like vivi has in these threads, and never taken it to the extreme of 200-300 grit, and never applied it to an edge below 20º-25º per side.

[skeeg11]

Here is the list of my uses for SE:
1) Gardening
2) PFD knife for kayaking

And here is my list for PE:
1) Everything else

Gotta luv it!

[benben]

I’m with cabfrank, I’ll always have, use, and love both edges!

[skeeg11]

If I don't have one of each on my person, I feel ill prepared to face the world. Although I mostly use PE, when SE shines, it really shines.

[sethwm]

I’ve had a lot of fun with the Evil D edge on my dragonfly salt. It turned it from the worst knife I had (which I kept because it was also my first) into something I use and love. And I bought the endela serrated more like a travel bread knife and it’s doing it’s job well.

I have been finding that the right balance for me is to have a plain edge as my main blade, and have my ladybug salt on my keychain if I have to tear through something that I otherwise can’t. Feel way better having some serrations for emergencies.

[vivi]

was thinking about this thread today and people mentioning SE being good at cutting plastic straps when I made this cut.

https://vidsli.com/watch/0ajz4g6eRP

2.5 week old edge. zero slipping around.

[vivi]

Spent the last few weeks carrying a PE Pacific Salt 1 with a very thinned out edge bevel and a keen apex. It's been cutting everything I throw at it with ease.

Someone recently posted a thread about Sal challenging them to get a SE knife and sharpmaker.

Motivated me to give SE another go.

So I got my SE Pacific 2 user and reprofiled it. Put a quarter under the sharpmaker base and reground it to around 14 degrees inclusive, then took the apex up to ultrafine using the 15 degree slot.

I got a truly incredible edge on the knife. One of the best SE edges I've ever put on a knife. Sharp enough that I could wave it over my arm without touching the skin and watch it send arm hairs flying.

Carried it for a day and everything I cut took more work than the PE. More snagging on plastic wrap and cardboard, etc.

Put the PE back into my pocket and called it a day.

[elena86]

It might be an explanation: maybe the serrations are falling out of love with you ! Did you even consider this ?! The edge is a ghost but even a ghost has feelings !

[Evil D]

It might be an explanation: maybe the serrations are falling out of love with you ! Did you even consider this ?! The edge is a ghost but even a ghost has feelings !

Lol I was thinking something similar.

I always try to make it clear that I don't consider one to be outright better than the other, only that for my uses and preferences one works better for me. You can fiddle with edge grits and edge angles all day long and it won't change certain ways that serrations cut vs PE, it's almost more of an ergonomic difference for me. I'm pretty much at the opposite end of Vivi's experience, every time I use PE I'm let down and want my SE back and it doesn't matter if it's my Mule with a thicker behind the bevel edge or my reground Military that's so thin it barely has an edge bevel.

[vivi]

I've even been carrying some polished edge pocket knives lately and I find they've been working just fine for me. I've bought more 1,000-8,000 grit stones lately than I'd care to admit to use on my work knives, and I've experimented with some on my folders.

Currently carrying a PE Pacific Salt sharpened on a Suehiro Cerax 1000 Grit ceramic stone. Bit toothier of an edge than the fine ceramics from Spyderco, and much different feeling feedback.

David, what don't you like about how PE cuts? What got me into SE was the way it grabbed materials and didn't let them slip around, but I found I could achieve similar results with coarse PE and avoid snagging as well. For me it's the best of both worlds.

Seems no matter how sharp I get my SE knives, whether toothy or maximum polish, it's extremely difficult to avoid having them hang up on cardboard, envelopes, plastic wrap etc. Will they make the cut? Sure. But for me it ends up taking more effort.

At the end of the day I could get by with either edge type, PE or SE, polished or coarse, for the rest of my days, but coarse PE is the least fuss for my uses.

[Evil D]

Again it's not that I dislike PE, remember I was very much anti SE for most of my life. What I've found is I do mostly pull cuts and unless I'm using a knife with quite a bit of negative blade angle like an Ayoob, PE just doesn't grab and pull cut the same as SE. If I focus more on the angle I hold the knife then I can even the playing field but the bigger thing for me is I just don't feel any downsides outside of those lesser common situations where pull cuts happen. I very rarely get snagging anymore and if I do it's most likely a dull edge.

I'm sure a lot of it has to do with what we cut each day. Seems you do a lot of food prep and I wouldn't want only SE for that either. There may only be a handful of situations where the shape of serrations give me a mechanical advantage in pull cuts, but if I also don't feel any negatives in other situations then it's a win win for me. I also still have a nagging concern about edges sliding too much without cutting, and it's just so much less likely to happen with SE that even if I did get an occasion snag it's something I'll happily live with for the peace of mind. If I cut more things where the end result of the cut needed to be clean and neat then I may reach for PE more but for the most part my cuts just need to be "trustworthy" I guess you'd say.

The way I've (we've both really) been reprofiling serrations, you could almost say they're technically PE anyway since mine no longer have "teeth", they're just wavy PE. What ultimately happens is areas of higher pressure focusing along those rounded bumps and it's that focused cutting power that I like.

[Doc Dan]

I was never wowed by SE. There are times when it is better, but for most things, a good PE does a better job. Of course, I may be one of the few on this forum that likes combo edges.