Falling out of love with serrations

[elena86]

I think what actually is being debated is the *size* of serrations.

… and the shape at least in my case(rounded vs pointy tips)

[vivi]

Unless you're talking about a hard nylon rope or something similar in my experience polished edges don't slide off things unless they're dull. A well maintained polished edge that will grab a hair or cut into a fingernail isn't going to slide off a tomato.

It's not like a coarse or serrated edge that has a long 'working edge aggression', but if you're diligent in maintaining it with a strop or fine stones, it cuts very aggressively in my experience. You almost have to be careful you don't cut too far into things.

I could go 4-7 days with an H1 Pacific Salt apexed with fine sharpmaker rods before it'd start slipping on materials.

I can go over a month with a 200 grit edge on the same knife without it slipping.

Like I said, I gravitate towards low fuss, low maintenance equipment.

I like how a freshly applied polished edge cuts a lot of things. But I don't like having to touch it up every other day to keep high performance.

Regarding your last point, I also feel coarse PE knives are more predictable to cut with. Could be it's just what I've gotten used to, but I feel like I'm much more in control of the cut VS a peak sharpness polished edge.

There are still some cases where I'd prefer a high polish edge, or a serrated edge. But there are more situations I find where a coarse PE works best for me, so that's what I carry.

Not a two knife kind of guy. The days where I carry both a PE and a SE I feel silly because I could get by with just one or the other.

[ZrowsN1s]

I was very impressed with the coarse Pac Salt. It held it's edge really well. If I had a 200-300 grit stone for the Galley V, I'd probably use that edge type a lot more (I think the cbn stone I have for the GalleyV is 600-800?).

Just as a consequence of the type of edge I've always favored, most of my gear and maintenance equipment is geared towards polished edges. To maintain the coarse Pac Salt I have to throw it on the wicked edge and dial in the clamp and the angle. Vs. using one of my Diamond pasted strops to bring the edge back on one of my polished edges. A 15 minute job vs a 2 minute job. It's the path of least resistance for me. I definitely intend to keep experimenting with the coarse edge though, it's always fun to encounter something new and good in this hobby, and I really like the way it performs.

I would really like to see Spyderco offer more angles and abrasives on their sharpeners. I think they're working on it?

[David from NC 2]

My first two Spydercos were fully serrated Enduras. I "made" them work for all tasks. Some were tougher (cutting threads off clothes, peeling an apple, opening mail, etc. Since then, all have been PE, however I would (and probably will) buy another SE.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I recently became enthralled with Wharncliffe blades after having zero interest in them until a few months ago. Having been made a convert by about 3 of Michael Janich's videos, I'd really consider the SE Wharncliffe Endura or even like to see others. I do realize however that even the Rescues already in the line offer a straight cutting edge in similar fashion.

[aicolainen]

for me it's less about a side by side co
parison in a controlled environment and more about what i need to work in an emergency. i've said it a handful of times here, but if i have to cut my kids out of seatbelts, i want teeth at the ready. i don't have time to fuss with a coarse plain edge and hope it doesn't slide off.
i see my knives first as an emergency tool. if everything goes wrong, i want to have a tool i can depend on. most likely, that will involve some form or emergency that requires cutting of coarse materials, so i will always carry se, even if i only carry one knife. for standard edc cutting, i prefer a plain edge, but i can cut with se so it's my default, even though i use the pe for almost everything from day to day.

I understand your logic, but It's interesting that when looking at similar considerations, I end up with a different outcome.
A knife of any kind is a poor tool in a life and death situation, heart pounding, adrenaline through the roof, dexterity totally vanished and trying to save your own children. It's better than nothing, but not ideal.
As such I have strategically placed seat belt cutters in both of my cars, as well as a seat belt cutter and a LM raptor in my backpack (which I have within arms range 70% of the time I'm not at home).
Now emergencies are just that, in part because things don't pan out as planned. Probably all kinds of things you never considered is going to happen, all at once, and all those dedicated tools may be out of reach, or irrelevant for a bunch of other reasons and I might have to fall back to using my EDC knife. So if it comes down to it and I have to use my EDC knife for that stuff, I would have to slow way down and be so careful and focused as not to do more damage than good, so whatever unknown speed is gained from SE in an emergency (and it might not even be a positive contribution) isn't part of my consideration when choosing my EDC knife for the day.
This is just my assessment, I'm in no way claiming for it to be better, it's just interesting to see how different our conclusions and priorities turn out.


As to the main topic of this thread; I've learned so much about SE since joining this forum, it has broadened my tool selection, opened my eyes and diversified my knife hobby in a very positive way. The impact on my wallet isn't as positive, but on balance it's been a joy.
That said, I've also realized some aspects of SE that prevents it from being my go-to edge.
I'm an engineer in electronics, I work with tiny stuff so I want precision. Because of the asymmetric nature of the "chisel" grind and the variation in height along the edge, I loose some of that ability to predict exactly where the apex will engage with the material I'm cutting. Even more rudimentary tasks, like cutting insulation sheaths off of cables, are harder to get right for similar reasons.
To some extent I'm experiencing the same issues in the outdoors when backpacking, camping etc. If I'm doing repair work, preparing fishing line etc. I rather have the precision of a PE knife.
My final little issue with SE is more of a precautionary one, and has nothing to do with the cutting performance itself - and is with regards to food prep. While well done SE cut food amazingly well, they also bite into my cutting board way more aggressively than PE. I want to replace all my cutting boards to wooden ones, but I still have a fair bit of plastic ones in circulation, and there's enough mini, micro and nano plastics in my life already... I don't need whatever contribution I get from the serrations biting into my cutting boards.


As with many other things, how much benefit we get from SE depends very much on what each of us do in our day to day life. I'm very happy that this community has opened my eyes to SE, hawkbills and other features that I ignorantly dismissed based on common misconceptions (aka settled truths). Those are all great features when the job at hand calls for it, and I truly enjoy them on those occasions, but those tasks still occupy a very little space of my world.

[vivi]

I was very impressed with the coarse Pac Salt. It held it's edge really well. If I had a 200-300 grit stone for the Galley V, I'd probably use that edge type a lot more (I think the cbn stone I have for the GalleyV is 600-800?).

Just as a consequence of the type of edge I've always favored, most of my gear and maintenance equipment is geared towards polished edges. To maintain the coarse Pac Salt I have to throw it on the wicked edge and dial in the clamp and the angle. Vs. using one of my Diamond pasted strops to bring the edge back on one of my polished edges. A 15 minute job vs a 2 minute job. It's the path of least resistance for me. I definitely intend to keep experimenting with the coarse edge though, it's always fun to encounter something new and good in this hobby, and I really like the way it performs.

I would really like to see Spyderco offer more angles and abrasives on their sharpeners. I think they're working on it?

I keep one of those 4 sided harbor freight stones at work and at home. Plus two unopened ones as backup.

When I sharpen my knife I get that stone out and do about 8-10 strokes per side with alternating strokes on the 300 grit side. Then feather light strokes where I check for the burr in between every stroke, ensuring a clean apex.

Total time is about 1-2 minutes. Not bad.

If I'm resetting the edge I spend 3-5 minutes on the 200 grit side, then finish on 300 grit. Takes about 5 or 6 minutes for a 10" chef knife, which is the style knife I most commonly sharpen.

I have no idea how people spend more time setting up their sharpening rigs than it takes us to touch up a knife. Maybe that's why some folks are so uninsterested in sharpening.

Like I said, I'm all about low fuss. I can maintain my knives quickly and easily with nothing but that $12 stone, a $1 bottle of mineral oil, a tiny tube of loctite and a $5 torx set.

[vivi]

As with many other things, how much benefit we get from SE depends very much on what each of us do in our day to day life. I'm very happy that this community has opened my eyes to SE, hawkbills and other features that I ignorantly dismissed based on common misconceptions (aka settled truths). Those are all great features when the job at hand calls for it, and I truly enjoy them on those occasions, but those tasks still occupy a very little space of my world.

Wise words.

I'm thrilled to have gone down the SE rabbit hole. Now I know how to sharpen them well, how to use them most effectively for my day to day tasks, and I know I can get by just fine carrying only a SE knife.

I used to be extremely biased against serrations, but now I know I can make either edge type work for most tasks.

[Bill1170]

I think what actually is being debated is the *size* of serrations.

Yes, this. For years it bothered me that my knives performed better off the brown rods than off the white. I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong! Slowly it dawned on me that the loss of aggression had to do with the scratch pattern acting as micro serrations. They became too small and too smooth with the white rods. Since then I’ve experimented with diamond plates, CBN Sharpmaker rods, and so on. I recall that Ankerson used a 400 grit carborundum stone to create the edges for his epic rope-cutting steel comparison series.

[ZrowsN1s]

Things would definitely be faster if I went to free hand sharpening. I really like my guided sharpeners though. What really works best for me is reprofiling on the wicked edge to 15 or 10DPS and maintaining with the sharpmaker or galley V. But for 12 or 13 degree edges I need to use the wicked edge for maintenance.

Have you ever put a 10 degree angle on a pac salt? I've done it to a Wharncliffe K390 delica with good results but thought it would be too thin for the H1 pac salt.

[vivi]

Have you ever put a 10 degree angle on a pac salt? I've done it to a Wharncliffe K390 delica with good results but thought it would be too thin for the H1 pac salt.

Yep. No issues.

SE H1 knives come ground at 15-20 degrees inclusive. 10 degrees per side is 20 degrees inclusive.

If Spyderco is willing to go down to or below 20 degrees inclusive, I am too.

[ChrisinHove]

My final little issue with SE is more of a precautionary one, and has nothing to do with the cutting performance itself - and is with regards to food prep. While well done SE cut food amazingly well, they also bite into my cutting board way more aggressively than PE. I want to replace all my cutting boards to wooden ones, but I still have a fair bit of plastic ones in circulation, and there's enough mini, micro and nano plastics in my life already... I don't need whatever contribution I get from the serrations biting into my cutting boards.

I have wondered about this myself. My serrated K11S is my favourite kitchen knife and it really chews into the plastic boards if I’m not careful.

[vivi]

I never, ever use SE knives on wooden cutting boards. I try to avoid using them with hard pressure on plastic ones too.

[cabfrank]

I didn't read the whole thread yet. I will. One thing though, if you don't have great sharpening skills, I think you will get more performance out of SE and a Sharpmaker than anything else.

[ZrowsN1s]

Have you ever put a 10 degree angle on a pac salt? I've done it to a Wharncliffe K390 delica with good results but thought it would be too thin for the H1 pac salt.

Yep. No issues.

SE H1 knives come ground at 15-20 degrees inclusive. 10 degrees per side is 20 degrees inclusive.

If Spyderco is willing to go down to or below 20 degrees inclusive, I am too.

in that case now i really want an extra coarse stone for the Galley V

[TkoK83Spy]

Guess you gotta fall in love with them first, before falling out. No matter how many times I try, different finishes, rounding the serrations, they just never perform as well as a PE for me, besides doing landscape trimming and things like that. I'm thankful I've come to that conclusion instead of wasting money on more! 4th time was not a charm!

[Brock O Lee]

Coarse PE has been my go-to for years.

I also discovered that I like the coarse 400 grit finish straight off the diamond rods for micro bevels...

[SG89]

Guess you gotta fall in love with them first, before falling out. No matter how many times I try, different finishes, rounding the serrations, they just never perform as well as a PE for me, besides doing landscape trimming and things like that. I'm thankful I've come to that conclusion instead of wasting money on more! 4th time was not a charm!

Absolutely.

[The Meat man]

Along with most of you...

[cabfrank]

It was mentioned already, here and in other threads, but the Jumpmaster, which is SE, likely out cuts anything. What does this have to do with this thread? Nothing, probably, but it's there.

[Igi964]

Vivi do You have the same edge on FFG Pacific Salt 2? Is there any differnce in performance between H1 and LC200N? Except the geometry. Hollow, FFG.