Serrated Blade Rating Method?

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JD Spydo
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Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#1

Post by JD Spydo »

I'll bet that many of you all came to Spyderco in a similar way as I did. And that your first Spyderco model was a serrated model. Because my very first Spyder I ever bought in April of 1995 was a GIN-1, full SE, Stainless handled MARINER model. That Spyderco MARINER model sold me on the fact that Spyderco was and still is the King of serrated blades.

It goes without saying that serrated blades are truly a completely different animal than plain edged blades. As I became interested in many of Spyderco's serrated models I had bought several of them with different blade steels. It wasn't long until I realized that the properties that made for a great plain edged knife were somewhat different than those that made for a good serrated edge.

I discovered that some of the older steels that Spyderco used in years past had more of a toughness aspect to them made for a really good performing serrated blade in many cases. Some of the blade steels that Spyderco used in the past that I found that made good serrated blades are GIN-1, AUS-8, ATS-55, ATS-34, MBS-26 and VG-10 just to name a few.

AUS-8 is one I've really had great luck with on serrated blades over the years along with ATS-55, and VG-10 to be among my all time favorites for SE blades. In the past I've found the best way to determine which steel is great for serrated blades is to use them and use them hard.

But I'm wide open if anyone has any suggestions of an efficient way to rate blade steels for serrated blades. Or you can tell us how you rate which blade steel you like the best for full SE models.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#2

Post by DrHE »

I admit have owned very few SE vs the PE Spydercos that make up 99% of my edc Spyderco collection.

That said, I am a huge fan of the Pacific Salt 2 (LC200N) in SE. It’s basically a full flat grind profile (basically a rust free Endura) with the SE teeth and it’s an amazing cutter in absolutely all aspects. If you are “SE curious” try the PAC Salt 2 and you will be amazed at how well it works. If I had to have 1 “go anywhere and cut anything” folder that would be top of my personal list. It lives a hard life as our “dog walking safety knife” in a rapid deployment neck sheath. Carried in all weather and used regularly on everything from boxes to bushes. If someone got cut with it they would need a **** good trauma surgeon!

My other SE is a very old spyderwrench (in 440c) with SE that has worked quite well for decades. Few micro chips toward the tip and the SE is less “toothy” after decades of sharpmaker touch ups. It lives in my jeep full time as my “oh crap” emergency tool.

I think as long as it isn’t a very fragile or overly chippy steel it can maintain the smaller teeth and thin edge profile of the SE without issue. Would love to see a Maxamet or something like it in SE.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#3

Post by Evil D »

I think it works exactly like plain edge, you just need to think in terms of an edge that has several points instead of a blade that has only one point.

With plain edge, what kind of steels would you be concerned about breaking or chipping the tip of the blade off? What steels offer less toughness, less edge stability, and are more likely to need edge damage repair?

Steel is steel, it's going to behave much the same regardless of the edge type. H1 may be an exception because of the mystical effects of work hardening, but unless other steels behave the same way I don't think there's any reason to think other steels will be better or will perform better in SE than in PE.

I do think that serrations will bring forward the more negative qualities of a steel that maybe you can get by with easier in PE. ZDP for example has been a great steel for me in PE, but the issues it had with SE point out that the negative qualities may really stand out when in SE form.

I guess what I'm saying is... excluding something like work hardening where H1 is better in SE than PE, I think this discussion will be sadly more about what steels are less good in SE than ones that are more good in SE, and the other steels will just be as good in both edges, or the steels we may see as being great for serrations will be great because they have less of the negative qualities that don't work well with serrations.

An example of this might be VG10, I don't see anything about it that makes it amazing in SE, it just works well because it doesn't have any major negatives with serrations. I wouldn't say it's better in either edge type but it's also not worse in SE.


And to sum up, I think it'll likely be more about steels that are higher in edge stability and easier to grind that will offer the most enjoyment. The idea of taking the good with the bad still applies, so if you only care about edge retention, that could certainly be achieved with grinding serrations into a steel that is well known to have great edge retention, but it may also be more likely to break off teeth and be a nightmare to sharpen too. If you managed to cut serrations into REX121 it would hold an edge a very long time just as it does in PE but you'd probably be wise to use it more gently than you do the same blade in PE, and best of luck fixing edge damage or reprofiling the serrations.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#4

Post by JD Spydo »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:14 am
I think it works exactly like plain edge, you just need to think in terms of an edge that has several points instead of a blade that has only one point.

With plain edge, what kind of steels would you be concerned about breaking or chipping the tip of the blade off? What steels offer less toughness, less edge stability, and are more likely to need edge damage repair?

Steel is steel, it's going to behave much the same regardless of the edge type. H1 may be an exception because of the mystical effects of work hardening, but unless other steels behave the same way I don't think there's any reason to think other steels will be better or will perform better in SE than in PE.

I do think that serrations will bring forward the more negative qualities of a steel that maybe you can get by with easier in PE. ZDP for example has been a great steel for me in PE, but the issues it had with SE point out that the negative qualities may really stand out when in SE form.

I guess what I'm saying is... excluding something like work hardening where H1 is better in SE than PE, I think this discussion will be sadly more about what steels are less good in SE than ones that are more good in SE, and the other steels will just be as good in both edges, or the steels we may see as being great for serrations will be great because they have less of the negative qualities that don't work well with serrations.

An example of this might be VG10, I don't see anything about it that makes it amazing in SE, it just works well because it doesn't have any major negatives with serrations. I wouldn't say it's better in either edge type but it's also not worse in SE.


And to sum up, I think it'll likely be more about steels that are higher in edge stability and easier to grind that will offer the most enjoyment. The idea of taking the good with the bad still applies, so if you only care about edge retention, that could certainly be achieved with grinding serrations into a steel that is well known to have great edge retention, but it may also be more likely to break off teeth and be a nightmare to sharpen too. If you managed to cut serrations into REX121 it would hold an edge a very long time just as it does in PE but you'd probably be wise to use it more gently than you do the same blade in PE, and best of luck fixing edge damage or reprofiling the serrations.
Respectfully no!! I'm not buying that because I've experienced it first hand. But you are right that H-1 is sort of a different animal and that I do agree with you about. Spyderco's test results with H-1 on serrated blades really surprised me greatly.

Take Spyderco's first blade steel GIN-1 for instance>> it was truly a lousy steel for plain edges compared to many of the newer/better blade steels that hit the scene post 2002 and thereabout. But for some strange reason the 2 full SE blades I used a lot with GIN-1 seemed to hold up very well even with hard uses.

There have been two blade steels that I've found that seem to perform consistently with both edge types. So far they have been VG-10 and CTS-XHP.

Now I'll admit I'm not Larrin nor do I claim to have the metallurgical knowledge he obviously has. But in most cases actually using a material and using it hard will tell you all you really need to know when it comes to overall performance. I would have never believed that H-1 would have had the marvelous results it proved to have in full SE blades. Because the 2 PE blades I had owned with H-1 before Spyderco ever made blades with it were both a big disappointment to put it kindly. Benchmade quit using the steel after trying it out in only one model ( model 100S H2O diving knife).

H-1 worked great for Spyderco because of it's great results in full SE blades >> which I'm still kind of baffled about.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#5

Post by VooDooChild »

Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#6

Post by JD Spydo »

VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:38 am
Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
I kind of think you tend to be right about that. But again the only really valid test is to use the blade and use it hard. I've come to the conclusion that the results you get in the field using a blade in your daily cutting chores is ultimately the best test you can have ( especially in SE).

I've always found it curious that some of these nitrogen based steels like H-1 and to some degree LC200N do so well in full SE.
I sure didn't think that would be the case before Spyderco did their own controlled test on H-1. That did surprise me when I first heard it.

Oddly enough the two full SE Spyderco blades I still own and use with AUS-8 are still two of my favorites. Especially the old full SE Catcherman. I'm always on the lookout for another one of those if I could ever find one.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#7

Post by sethwm »

VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:38 am
Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
Why?
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#8

Post by VooDooChild »

sethwm wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:38 am
Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
Why?
Read Davids (Evil Ds) thread on the serrated k390 police. Its actually what kept me from buying one.

Generally speaking though, teeth are more prone to chipping, more difficult to sharpen/reprofile, and all the tool steel corrosion issues. Combine this with what seems like little to no advantage in actual cutting abiility compared to stainless serrated blades, and they are a pass for me.

Ideally I would say the increased wear resistance would help the serrations hold their shape better over time. But that doesnt matter if the teeth chip in hard use.

Theres obviously still differences. Cruwear is probably going to be a lot different than k390. And I will make an exception for the Ayoob, because its not available in anything else.

But really... I dont see the point in paying a premium for serrated tool steels.
Last edited by VooDooChild on Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:26 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#9

Post by Evil D »

JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:26 am

Respectfully no!! I'm not buying that because I've experienced it first hand. But you are right that H-1 is sort of a different animal and that I do agree with you about. Spyderco's test results with H-1 on serrated blades really surprised me greatly.

Take Spyderco's first blade steel GIN-1 for instance>> it was truly a lousy steel for plain edges compared to many of the newer/better blade steels that hit the scene post 2002 and thereabout. But for some strange reason the 2 full SE blades I used a lot with GIN-1 seemed to hold up very well even with hard uses.

There have been two blade steels that I've found that seem to perform consistently with both edge types. So far they have been VG-10 and CTS-XHP.

Now I'll admit I'm not Larrin nor do I claim to have the metallurgical knowledge he obviously has. But in most cases actually using a material and using it hard will tell you all you really need to know when it comes to overall performance. I would have never believed that H-1 would have had the marvelous results it proved to have in full SE blades. Because the 2 PE blades I had owned with H-1 before Spyderco ever made blades with it were both a big disappointment to put it kindly. Benchmade quit using the steel after trying it out in only one model ( model 100S H2O diving knife).

H-1 worked great for Spyderco because of it's great results in full SE blades >> which I'm still kind of baffled about.


Well ask yourself this...if Gin1 was so great, where is it today?


It was outclassed by other steels, likely in both edge types.


It has been said that the shape of serrations aids in edge retention because the points make contact with things first (as in the case with a dinner plate for example) protecting the scallops between the points. This may be true with every steel, so it's a bit of a moot point. We can all agree that a steel may hold an edge longer in SE and move on, because all other things will be equal when comparing steel vs steel.


Beyond that, and beyond H1 work hardening, I don't see anything about a steel's makeup that makes it better in SE than PE, but I see a lot of ways that a steel could be far worse in SE than PE (ZDP for example).

So, until there's more proof like work hardening to show that a steel is in some measurable way improved by serrations, the only way we can look at this is by how a steel is not poor in SE, compared to how a steel is somehow better in SE, because again until we see some kind of actual proof that a steel is changed like H1 is through work hardening, it's impossible to say a steel is actually better and not just "not bad".


I have no idea if that makes any sense. It's a lot to word and is already convoluted. Let's just make sure we don't let things like nostalgia and love and popularity of a particular steel cloud the facts.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#10

Post by Evil D »

VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:20 am
sethwm wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:38 am
Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
Why?
Read Evil Ds thread on the serrated k390 police. Its actually what kept me from buying one.

Generally speaking though, teeth are more prone to chipping, more difficult to sharpen/reprofile, and all the tool steel corrosion issues. Combine this with what seems like little to no advantage in actual cutting abiility compared to stainless serrated blades and they are a pass for me.

Ideally I would say the increased wear resistance would help the serrations hold their shape better over time. But that doesnt matter if the teeth chip in hard use.



I think it would also be fair to consider that the shape of the serrations in that knife and/or how I sharpened it may have played a part. I'm not yet done with SE K390, just haven't had the chance to get back to it.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#11

Post by Matus »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:22 am

Well ask yourself this...if Gin1 was so great, where is it today?

It was outclassed by other steels, likely in both edge types.
I don't think it is that simple. While on one hand I am readily willing to agree that other steels outclassed the Gin-1, but on the other hand this is a strictly B2C type of business where perceived value often dominates, so often the 'newer is better' will be the driving force.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#12

Post by Evil D »

Matus wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:08 am
Evil D wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:22 am

Well ask yourself this...if Gin1 was so great, where is it today?

It was outclassed by other steels, likely in both edge types.
I don't think it is that simple. While on one hand I am readily willing to agree that other steels outclassed the Gin-1, but on the other hand this is a strictly B2C type of business where perceived value often dominates, so often the 'newer is better' will be the driving force.




Isn't it though? If it's not gone because of cost or performance then why else, because the steel that replaced it has a cooler name? I guess maybe lack of availability like H1 can be a factor, but this is all getting way off the point of the thread now.

If we're going to have this discussion, let's boil it down to facts. If a steel is better in SE than in PE, why?

Again I'll ask, if Gin 1 was so great in SE, what made it great? If it was better than it was in PE, was there a reason beyond the ways that serrations hold an edge longer or was there something about the steel that specifically made it better with SE?


I think Gin 1 was just less likely to chip and fracture, so it did well, and was basically the opposite of ZDP. Or as I've said a couple times now, it just didn't have anything specific qualities that made it poor in SE and nothing specific that actually made it great.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#13

Post by sethwm »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:23 am
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:20 am
sethwm wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:38 am
Im going to go in a weird direction.

I think all this serrated k390 is pointless.

In fact, I dont think doing a serrated edge on any tool or super steel is going to perform better than a regular old stainless in most scenarios.
Why?
Read Evil Ds thread on the serrated k390 police. Its actually what kept me from buying one.

Generally speaking though, teeth are more prone to chipping, more difficult to sharpen/reprofile, and all the tool steel corrosion issues. Combine this with what seems like little to no advantage in actual cutting abiility compared to stainless serrated blades and they are a pass for me.

Ideally I would say the increased wear resistance would help the serrations hold their shape better over time. But that doesnt matter if the teeth chip in hard use.



I think it would also be fair to consider that the shape of the serrations in that knife and/or how I sharpened it may have played a part. I'm not yet done with SE K390, just haven't had the chance to get back to it.
You have a link to the thread VooDooChild is referring to?
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#14

Post by Evil D »

sethwm wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:16 am


You have a link to the thread VooDooChild is referring to?


Cliff Notes, I reprofiled it pretty poorly and practically sharpened off the serrations, but the initial testing was looking promising. I've been holding out waiting for a different model that I like to come out with SE/K390 instead of buying another Police 4 but it's taking forever for them to come out.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=90767#p1560638
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#15

Post by ZrowsN1s »

Not to stray too far off topic, but when I sharpen my Police K390 SE I'm going to do my best to maintain the factory shape. I love uniform bevels, but I think it's more functional on this knife (as sal suggested) to sharpen the shoulders at 30 degrees and then microbevel the edge at 40. Rather than try to reprofile the entire bevel to 30. I also don't plan to use anything but the fine and ultra fine stones if I can (we'll see). I think this will maintain the factory edge the longest. This knife cut amazing out of the box. I thought the serrations had the perfect blend of aggression and slicing ability. Didn't snag too much. If I can keep it there, I'll be happy. I need to stop trying to turn ALL of my serrated edges into plain edges and just enjoy them for what they are and what they do well. Which isn't to say I don't like the serrated knives I have with the thinned edges and rounded off teeth, but to me those knives are a hybrid PE/SE. I want a few serrated knives that embrace being serrated, in all of their toothy aggressive (if somewhat snaggy) glory. Something that could saw through a plastic trash bin if I felt the whim 🤣
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#16

Post by JRinFL »

Just something to think about: Steel choice and steel popularity is most often driven by street cred/peer pressure/keeping up with the Jones’s instead or real measured performance.

Case in point, 1095 still soldiers on because there are enough crusty old fans of it to keep it around, despite it being pretty mediocre. GIN1, etc., never gained that level of fan adoration and so it was dropped for the new hot thing.
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Re: Serrated Blade Rating Method?

#17

Post by JD Spydo »

Evil D wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:22 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:26 am

Respectfully no!! I'm not buying that because I've experienced it first hand. But you are right that H-1 is sort of a different animal and that I do agree with you about. Spyderco's test results with H-1 on serrated blades really surprised me greatly.

Take Spyderco's first blade steel GIN-1 for instance>> it was truly a lousy steel for plain edges compared to many of the newer/better blade steels that hit the scene post 2002 and thereabout. But for some strange reason the 2 full SE blades I used a lot with GIN-1 seemed to hold up very well even with hard uses.

There have been two blade steels that I've found that seem to perform consistently with both edge types. So far they have been VG-10 and CTS-XHP.

Now I'll admit I'm not Larrin nor do I claim to have the metallurgical knowledge he obviously has. But in most cases actually using a material and using it hard will tell you all you really need to know when it comes to overall performance. I would have never believed that H-1 would have had the marvelous results it proved to have in full SE blades. Because the 2 PE blades I had owned with H-1 before Spyderco ever made blades with it were both a big disappointment to put it kindly. Benchmade quit using the steel after trying it out in only one model ( model 100S H2O diving knife).

H-1 worked great for Spyderco because of it's great results in full SE blades >> which I'm still kind of baffled about.


Well ask yourself this...if Gin1 was so great, where is it today?


It was outclassed by other steels, likely in both edge types.


It has been said that the shape of serrations aids in edge retention because the points make contact with things first (as in the case with a dinner plate for example) protecting the scallops between the points. This may be true with every steel, so it's a bit of a moot point. We can all agree that a steel may hold an edge longer in SE and move on, because all other things will be equal when comparing steel vs steel.


Beyond that, and beyond H1 work hardening, I don't see anything about a steel's makeup that makes it better in SE than PE, but I see a lot of ways that a steel could be far worse in SE than PE (ZDP for example).

So, until there's more proof like work hardening to show that a steel is in some measurable way improved by serrations, the only way we can look at this is by how a steel is not poor in SE, compared to how a steel is somehow better in SE, because again until we see some kind of actual proof that a steel is changed like H1 is through work hardening, it's impossible to say a steel is actually better and not just "not bad".


I have no idea if that makes any sense. It's a lot to word and is already convoluted. Let's just make sure we don't let things like nostalgia and love and popularity of a particular steel cloud the facts.
GIN-1 I'm almost certain was passed over I'm sure because of it's very lackluster edge holding ability in PE>> and with new steels on the horizon like ATS-34 ( which was at one time considered a premier blade steel if you can believe that). And even steels like AUS-8, ATS-55 and 440V were all far superior to GIN-1. I would almost bet the farm on that one. Just with the experience I've had with it and the steels that succeed it. But SE is the only thing I think that GIN-1 is good for. But it did perform well in SE. Because If I were to find an old beater Endura, Hunter, Mariner or other early model in full SE with GIN-1 for a very reasonable price I would still buy it in a heartbeat. Because if I ruined a blade that old I wouldn't feel bad about it at all.

I have a question ask you David and please be honest as I'm sure you will be :grin-big eyes Tell me if you've ever tried a full SE blade in any of the following blade steels?>>> AUS-8, AUS-10, AUS-6, ATS-34, ATS-55, 440V ( S60V), or even XHP for that matter? Because if you haven't tried those steels in SE I think you're in for a pleasant surprise. And I'll just let it go at that for right now. Especially if you ever tried AUS-8 I think you would like it a lot.
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