Lightweight Yojimbo?

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vivi
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby vivi » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:18 pm

Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:03 am
Not just a lightweight but also a full rust proof version makes the most sense to me. A knife that's carried close against your body can rust too, we've had this conversation many times. I'm not sure calling it a "Salt" even makes sense, because I think too many people associate that name literally with salt water activities, but I think there's a real value in a rust proof self defense knife. We have the ARK, but being a neck knife meant for the shower is a bit different I guess.
Pfft, how in the world would that even happen? Show me one person that can make a pocket knife rust JUST by carrying it in a pocket ;)

I agree, salt versions of self defense knives make a lot of sense. I don't carry knives for that role, but if I did, I'd probably carry a waved Pacific Salt if I opted for a folder, and a Ronin Salt seems like it'd be a good fixed option.
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Bloke » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:21 pm

I think lightweight and budget are same, same.

How much lighter is FRN than G10? :thinking
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby dj moonbat » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:29 pm

I don't think the FRN is rigid enough for a knife as stabby as the Yojimbo.

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Wartstein » Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:49 pm

dj moonbat wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:29 pm
I don't think the FRN is rigid enough for a knife as stabby as the Yojimbo.
I don't think (but also don't know for sure!) that two linerless handles, both with the exact same thickness, but one in G10, the other in "full" (so not milled out on the inside) FRN would differ much in rigidness.

Also, as far as I know, when it comes to sd the Yojimbo is rather meanr for cutting/slashing than stabbing.
Top three going by pocket-time (update April 22):
- EDC: Manix 2 LW in REX 45 , Endela SE in VG10, stainless steel handle Endura in VG10 (hollow grind)
- Mountains/outdoors: Salt 2 SE in LC200N, Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales).

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Michael Janich » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:21 am

Hey, All:

Thank you very much for your lively discussion and your interest in a Yo 2 Lightweight. As several of you wisely pointed out--and as I've addressed in other threads on this forum--lock mechanisms have a profound impact on the design parameters of knives. LinerLocks and Compression Locks get completely out of the way of the blade when the knife is closed, so they allow greater variety of blade design and allow blade styles with cutting edges that extend all the way to the front of the handle. Other locks, like back locks and Ball Bearing Locks, are located in the plane of the blade and require different design dynamics--like index-finger choils that allow the closed blade to nest around the mechanism.

Even the seemingly simple act of putting injection-molded handles on a Compression Lock knife isn't really simple, as FRN is less rigid than machined G-10. As such, the lateral forces of the lock spring are managed differently and can lead to unforeseen problems.

In the world that lives inside my head, I'd love to see a Bolt Action Lock on a Yo 2 with FRN scales. The Bolt Action Lock is ambidextrous, extremely strong, and doesn't take up much real estate in the handle spine. Its spring forces are also longitudinal, so it doesn't create lateral force that bows scales or affects blade centering.

Alternately, a Stop Lock or Rolling Lock would be cool. A back lock would be much further down on my list and I'd be concerned that engineering it to achieve MBC-level strength would hinder blade deployment speed, which is a priority for me.

Thanks again for the cool discussion!

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Fireman » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:51 am

Thank you for chiming in! What do you think of the wave feature on the Yojimbo? I think the wave feature pairs well with a rapid reaction self defense knife like your Yojimbo. Would aluminum scales that have been machined out for ideal strength to weight be an alternative and all else the same? Would an aluminum scale allow for reducing the amount of steel needed for the compression lock? I can see a black anodize aluminum scale with the black DLC blade be popular. To add on… Have you done a hawk bill Yojimbo? Taka or Sa Shiba for a Japanese name (Taka means Falcon and Sa Shiba means Hawk). Taka is a good name for a knife.
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Mushroom » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:07 am

Fireman wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:51 am
Thank you for chiming in! What do you think of the wave feature on the Yojimbo? I think the wave feature pairs well with a rapid reaction self defense knife like your Yojimbo. Would aluminum scales that have been machined out for ideal strength to weight be an alternative and all else the same? Would an aluminum scale allow for reducing the amount of steel needed for the compression lock? I can see a black anodize aluminum scale with the black DLC blade be popular. To add on… Have you done a hawk bill Yojimbo? Taka or Sa Shiba for a Japanese name (Taka means Falcon and Sa Shiba means Hawk). Taka is a good name for a knife.
Some of the accessories from 5x5 Combat Solutions may pique your interest. Specifically the “pickpocket” -
https://5x5combatsolutions.com/shop/ols ... o-ccessory

It’s an accessory that adds on a “wave” opening feature and they offer it for a number of Spyderco models, including the Yojimbo.
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Fireman » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:15 am

Thank you for sharing. That is good but an integral one would be the best!
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Bolster » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:14 pm

Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:21 am
Hey, All...

Wow, good post, MJ. Have read your post several times over. I learned a lot from it!
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby JRinFL » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:36 pm

Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:21 am
Hey, All:


In the world that lives inside my head, I'd love to see a Bolt Action Lock on a Yo 2 with FRN scales. The Bolt Action Lock is ambidextrous, extremely strong, and doesn't take up much real estate in the handle spine. Its spring forces are also longitudinal, so it doesn't create lateral force that bows scales or affects blade centering.


Stay safe,

Mike
Another bolt action lock fan. If you can’t get Spyderco to make another knife with that lock, I guess there’s no hope for us.
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Wartstein » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:50 am

Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:21 am
Hey, All:

......
Thanks for the very interesting details and insight!

Now out of interest for knife design and -materials I´d have two questions for you on what you said:

1.) "A back lock would be much further down on my list and I'd be concerned that engineering it to achieve MBC-level strength would hinder blade deployment speed"

- Generally I am sure that the backlock is considered to be a strong lock - for example both Sal and Eric have mentioned that they like to have this locktype particularly in large folders (like the Police), actually because it is so strong
And after all the (back lock) Endurar in older vids of yours (I think??) is seen as SD folder, and there´s even a trainer for it
- So is what you are saying this?:
+ The typical Spyderco backlock WOULD offer "MBC level strength", but is (of course) no match to a comp.lock when it comes to quick and reliable opening, especially under stress?
+ But technically you COULD design a "fast deployment backlock", but this would be too "weak" then?

2.) "...as FRN is less rigid than machined G-10. As such, the lateral forces of the lock spring are managed differently..."

- The reduced rigidity of (linerless) FRN could be a problem with a comp. lock, but would not be with a back lock, right ? (Concerning safety and proper functioning of the lock)
Top three going by pocket-time (update April 22):
- EDC: Manix 2 LW in REX 45 , Endela SE in VG10, stainless steel handle Endura in VG10 (hollow grind)
- Mountains/outdoors: Salt 2 SE in LC200N, Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales).

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Accutron » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:24 am

As an MBC student, I would definitely not feel comfortable using a hypothetical Yo2LW for SD or training if it were constructed like a P3LW. It would be less sturdy and move the balance point forward.

Regarding back lock versus comp lock, I greatly prefer the Native/Chief back lock, and I have no problem with MJ-style inertial opens or flicking them with my thumb, middle finger or ring finger. They are just as fast and easy for me to manipulate as a comp lock. Unlike the comp lock, the Native/Chief back lock is impervious to spine strikes, and unlike the Seki back lock it doesn't develop fatigue-related failures caused by frequent inertial opening. Having already worn out the locks on two Endura trainers in the past three years, I consider them a non-starter as a defensive tool.

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby TomH » Fri Jan 28, 2022 5:19 am

I hope a Yo2 with a Bolt Action Lock gets produced.

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Xformer » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:19 am

Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:03 am
Not just a lightweight but also a full rust proof version makes the most sense to me. A knife that's carried close against your body can rust too, we've had this conversation many times. I'm not sure calling it a "Salt" even makes sense, because I think too many people associate that name literally with salt water activities, but I think there's a real value in a rust proof self defense knife. We have the ARK, but being a neck knife meant for the shower is a bit different I guess.
I think the opposite, why would one need his SD pocket knife to be rust proof ? Rust isn't a problem if your knife is intended to defend yourself.

It's a different story if it's a multi-purpose knife, but the more I think of the Yojimbo, the less I imagine someone cutting an apple with it or pull it out in public to open a package.

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Evil D » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:27 am

Xformer wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:19 am
Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:03 am
Not just a lightweight but also a full rust proof version makes the most sense to me. A knife that's carried close against your body can rust too, we've had this conversation many times. I'm not sure calling it a "Salt" even makes sense, because I think too many people associate that name literally with salt water activities, but I think there's a real value in a rust proof self defense knife. We have the ARK, but being a neck knife meant for the shower is a bit different I guess.
I think the opposite, why would one need his SD pocket knife to be rust proof ? Rust isn't a problem if your knife is intended to defend yourself.

It's a different story if it's a multi-purpose knife, but the more I think of the Yojimbo, the less I imagine someone cutting an apple with it or pull it out in public to open a package.


I guess it doesn't matter if you're ok walking around with a rusted blade and components? Or if the idea of a rusted pivot that hinders the opening action in the heat of an attack is something you're into. I guess you can counter with a maintenance argument, but I'd much rather go a step further and know absolutely for sure that it won't happen. Lots of guys like to carry IWB too, I don't think I'd want a rusty knife in my wasteband any more than I'd want one that has to be coated with some kind of rust prohibitor that close to my skin. Why not just have a rust proof steel and skip all that? It's not like we're asking for a knife that would be impossible to make or insanely expensive.


Plus a rusted blade means a corroded edge which is dull, that's gonna cost you -3 damage, even though the rust offsets that just slightly with a +5 poison effect due to tetanus, but it's easy to have an immunity to tetanus if you had the shot for it so I can't really afford the hit to my DPS.
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Michael Janich » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:21 am

Hey, All:

Great comments and questions. Thank you for the continued discussion. Let me try to respond to everything in one shot...

To Wartstein, yes, many of my older videos featured an Endura Trainer; however, that was largely due to the fact that it was the best option available at the time. Even after the Yojimbo 2 live blade was released, I continued to use an Endura Trainer because the Yo 2 Trainer didn't follow for almost six years.

Yes, a lock back can be made to MBC standards (to withstand 200 inch-pounds of pressure per inch of blade length). The Chinook was one of the earliest to prove that. However, with that strength comes a much more "deliberate" action and typically a concentric tang profile on the blade. For my preferences, this makes high-speed deployment more challenging.

To Accutron, yes, the Native Chief has a great back lock. Historically, that knife was designed way back when the Native first came out. However, it was not produced until a few years ago. Why? Because the longer blade produced greater leverage and needed a sturdier back lock. The refinements made to the Native 5 back lock engineering achieved that and paved the way for the Chief. The longer blade on the Chief provides more mass and is easier to deploy than the Native 5. It also makes it 0.6 inches too long to be Colorado legal, so for my purposes, it's not a good choice.

The back lock action on the Endura and Delica is different than the Native and Native Chief, so they lend themselves to faster opening. Their Trademark Round Holes are also positioned higher than the Native and Native Chief, providing more leverage and allowing a more linear drive of the thumb during thumb openings. Same mechanism, but tangibly different expressions of it...

I, too, have worn out locks on Endura Trainers; however, I don't think the issue lies mainly with the lock geometry. I personally think it's the low-carbon AUS-6 blades not being as resilient as the more capable blade steels used on the live blades.

Back to Wartstein, yes, FRN handles on a back lock don't have any issues with lateral force, since all the spring tension is applied in the plane of the blade.

And, Xformer, I agree with you to a point. I feel that corrosion resistance is a true benefit in a self-defense folder, especially for those who carry in the waistband and/or live in humid climates. When I designed the Ronin 2 (granted, not a folder, but intended for self-defense), Eric asked me about my choice of steel. I chose CTS BD1 because it was corrosion resistant and would keep the price of the knife affordable. The criminal on the other end of it would never know the difference if it had to be used for its primary intended purpose. With all that said, I don't necessarily feel a true Salt-worthy build is necessary for a personal-defense knife. Good stainless steels do their jobs well enough for my personal tastes. If ultra corrosion resistance is important due to your environment, I'd opt for a Pacific Salt 2 and an Endura Trainer. I understand and respect your opinion, though...

I hope this helps...

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Accutron » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:51 am

Michael Janich wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:21 am
I, too, have worn out locks on Endura Trainers; however, I don't think the issue lies mainly with the lock geometry. I personally think it's the low-carbon AUS-6 blades not being as resilient as the more capable blade steels used on the live blades.
Yes, I also believe that the trainer blade steel is the primary contributing factor, but the lock engagement depth of the Chief is also significantly greater than the Endura, and it seems like a Chief trainer with the same blade steel would not be nearly as prone to that failure mode. If Spyderco were to send me an AUS-6 Chief trainer blade, I'd be happy to provide the inertial cycle MTBF testing ;)

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby vivi » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:11 am

Xformer wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:19 am
Evil D wrote:
Tue Jan 25, 2022 7:03 am
Not just a lightweight but also a full rust proof version makes the most sense to me. A knife that's carried close against your body can rust too, we've had this conversation many times. I'm not sure calling it a "Salt" even makes sense, because I think too many people associate that name literally with salt water activities, but I think there's a real value in a rust proof self defense knife. We have the ARK, but being a neck knife meant for the shower is a bit different I guess.
I think the opposite, why would one need his SD pocket knife to be rust proof ? Rust isn't a problem if your knife is intended to defend yourself.

It's a different story if it's a multi-purpose knife, but the more I think of the Yojimbo, the less I imagine someone cutting an apple with it or pull it out in public to open a package.
Often times self defense carry items are worn in the waist band, where they'll be exposed to sweat in the warmer months.

I've used my Yojumbo to cut up apples and open packages at work. Works great as a utility knife :cupcake
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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Wartstein » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:00 pm

Accutron wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:24 am
.....

Regarding back lock versus comp lock, I greatly prefer the Native/Chief back lock, and I have no problem with MJ-style inertial opens or flicking them with my thumb, middle finger or ring finger. They are just as fast and easy for me to manipulate as a comp lock. .....

Yes, true in my case too. I can flick all my backlocks open with each of my fingers (at least with the right hand). And I generally do prefer the backlock over the comp.lock anyway

But for one I most likely have stronger fingers and a bit more dexterity than the average person, coming just from the things I like to do (climbing, playing guitar...)
And I have a ton of practice with backlocks.

I still think that technically a comp.lock will always be easier to open reliably and quickly for most people, especially under stress - despite I prefer the feel of my backlocks, they don´t "fly open" as effortless as my linerlock S35VN Tenacious or my PM 2...
Top three going by pocket-time (update April 22):
- EDC: Manix 2 LW in REX 45 , Endela SE in VG10, stainless steel handle Endura in VG10 (hollow grind)
- Mountains/outdoors: Salt 2 SE in LC200N, Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales).

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Re: Lightweight Yojimbo?

Postby Wartstein » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:06 pm

Michael Janich wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:21 am
...
To Wartstein,
....

Thanks Mike, really appreciate your reply and explanation and the insight in knife-design and -materials you give !

As said many times by many folks already: One of the great things of this forum is actually getting to talk to the people who are really involved in designing and evolving Spydercos! :smlling-eyes
Top three going by pocket-time (update April 22):
- EDC: Manix 2 LW in REX 45 , Endela SE in VG10, stainless steel handle Endura in VG10 (hollow grind)
- Mountains/outdoors: Salt 2 SE in LC200N, Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales).


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