CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

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Eli Chaps
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby Eli Chaps » Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:45 am

Matus wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:06 am
Thanks a lot Shawn, some really interesting results. I completely agree, MC deserves to be HTed to higher hardness - at leas for pocket knives.

One point (a thought, really) about that 'better initial sharpness holding' for low alloy steels:

I can not really attest to it, but my impression is that it mainly comes from the world of Japanese and western custom kitchen knives - and there the situation is a lot different to what we see in pocket knives in the past few years. First of all - it is different companies with different technical background who make the knives (from very traditional methods where HT is done by eye to sophisticated automatized HT processes by others). Also - with exception of few outliers (like yourself :savouring ) high alloy steels are not really used much for these knives. For a very long time it was basically only simple carbon steels being used like white or blue 1/2/super for the large part the grind and sharpening were over time implicitly fine tuned to the properties of these steels and the use of these knives. Later industrial production arrived and more and more different stainless steels entered the market - and these were not always HTed properly. The best example would be VG-10 which never really took off among enthusiast users, because the knives that were widely available (mainly by Shun) had issues with chipping (my personal experience too).

On top of the different steel/grind 'landscape', the medium being cut in the kitchen is on average a whole lot less abrasive and aggressive to the edge then a manila rope, cardboard, or a zip-tie. And I am wondering whether this could yield to slightly different edge dulling processes where the edge of the low alloyed steels fares better.

Last but not least - one often hears how stainless steels in kitchen knives don't react to higher grit stones (say above 3k, give or take) as the simple carbon steel knives do - let alone to very fine natural sharpening stones. How much of that is just an objective fact that stainless steels have different carbides in them and how much is the sharpening itself (where most users have tuned their process to carbon steel knives) is not simple to disentangle, but may well contribute to this 'better initial sharpness holding' conundrum.

Again, just a though. Thanks again for your work.
Good thoughts Matus.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby JSumm » Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm

If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
- Jeff
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby nattynarwhal » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:42 pm

JSumm wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm
If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
The mule at 62-63 feels kinda like s35vn and is really easy to sharpen. I have a custom at 65 which feels a lot glassier on non diamond stones. Still sharpenable, but I’d definitely use diamonds.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby Wandering_About » Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:44 pm

JSumm wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm
If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
I think it feels a lot like S35VN on my diamond stones. CPM CurWear feels similar as well. I do feel like MagnaCut deburrs and takes to a sticky sharp edge more easily, but if you do the job right any of these steels will get just as sharp in the end.
I've never been lost. A bit confused for a month or three maybe, but never lost.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby salimoneus » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm

metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:28 pm
salimoneus wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
Interesting that M390 seems to have made a very good showing in comparison, unless I'm reading the charts wrong. Didn't Dr. Thomas say that he wasn't especially fond of M390? I'm pretty sure I heard him say that in an interview recently. I wonder why, since it seems to be such a good performer in this and many other tests I've seen. Sure I understand it's an older steel, and mostly yesterday's news, but it still performs very competitively.
Larrin Thomas prefers steels that have a good ratio of wear resistance to toughness, and in his testing M390 has not had good toughness relative to its wear resistance.
Sure, with the M390 family being one of the more popular and coveted stainless steels in recent years, they typically give up some toughness as a trade-off. But that's not uncommon at all, and in fact it's expected. M390 has shown to be a fair bit tougher than S30V, and many other popular "stainless" steels.

So it just seems odd for Larrin to single out his dislike for M390 specifically, when it in fact performs better in almost all areas than many other standard stainless steel offerings.

I wonder if it's more due to the M390 family being a direct competitor to Magnacut, than anything else. I would expect a newcomer to talk smack about their top competition, that would make sense. It's not necessarily a dig at the quality of the competition, but rather standard marketing strategies to promote your new offering.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby nattynarwhal » Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:46 pm

salimoneus wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm
metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:28 pm
salimoneus wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
Interesting that M390 seems to have made a very good showing in comparison, unless I'm reading the charts wrong. Didn't Dr. Thomas say that he wasn't especially fond of M390? I'm pretty sure I heard him say that in an interview recently. I wonder why, since it seems to be such a good performer in this and many other tests I've seen. Sure I understand it's an older steel, and mostly yesterday's news, but it still performs very competitively.
Larrin Thomas prefers steels that have a good ratio of wear resistance to toughness, and in his testing M390 has not had good toughness relative to its wear resistance.
Sure, with the M390 family being one of the more popular and coveted stainless steels in recent years, they typically give up some toughness as a trade-off. But that's not uncommon at all, and in fact it's expected. M390 has shown to be a fair bit tougher than S30V, and many other popular "stainless" steels.

So it just seems odd for Larrin to single out his dislike for M390 specifically, when it in fact performs better in almost all areas than many other standard stainless steel offerings.

I wonder if it's more due to the M390 family being a direct competitor to Magnacut, than anything else. I would expect a newcomer to talk smack about their top competition, that would make sense. It's not necessarily a dig at the quality of the competition, but rather standard marketing strategies to promote your new offering.
M390 in my experience has been one of the steels that have been somewhat overhyped. It’s not a very tough steel due to its huge carbide volume. In fact, it shouldn’t in theory be tougher than s30v. A lot of manufacturers also tend to run it very soft (maybe due to the low toughness?). I had a benchmade valet in m390 that just sharpened like crazy because of how soft it was and still constantly chipped and rolled whenever you put it to stuff like zip ties and cardboard. It still held an edge probably better than s30v, but I wouldn’t say it was tougher.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby ykspydiefan » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:25 pm

Hey salimoneus,

Why so cynical? Instead of wondering about silly stuff, have you considered buying and using your knives then posting up about what you have experienced? I just feel you could find more wholesome answers if you bought a m390/20cv/204p and a Magnacut knife and test it for yourself. I know you would have more friendly replies to your posts if you were contributing versus wondering silly stuff about the industry professionals, most people on this forum respect and trust.

Personally, I respect and trust these industry professionals because they are doing, recording and sharing. They are repeating tests and encouraging others to test and repeat to build the body of knowledge. Reading their work, wondering, and then talking smack is BS! Oopps, I get worked up some times.

And, when I do get worked up I go work with the blades I do have. My current knife fascination is how different steels sound on the stones. Sometimes I wonder if one could harmonize a series of blades and stones to produce music, much like tuning vibrating glasses of water.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405)

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby sal » Fri Jan 28, 2022 1:55 am

Hi Nattynarwhal,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby Albatross » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:44 am

salimoneus wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm
metaphoricalsimile wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:28 pm
salimoneus wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 5:00 pm
Interesting that M390 seems to have made a very good showing in comparison, unless I'm reading the charts wrong. Didn't Dr. Thomas say that he wasn't especially fond of M390? I'm pretty sure I heard him say that in an interview recently. I wonder why, since it seems to be such a good performer in this and many other tests I've seen. Sure I understand it's an older steel, and mostly yesterday's news, but it still performs very competitively.
Larrin Thomas prefers steels that have a good ratio of wear resistance to toughness, and in his testing M390 has not had good toughness relative to its wear resistance.
Sure, with the M390 family being one of the more popular and coveted stainless steels in recent years, they typically give up some toughness as a trade-off. But that's not uncommon at all, and in fact it's expected. M390 has shown to be a fair bit tougher than S30V, and many other popular "stainless" steels.

So it just seems odd for Larrin to single out his dislike for M390 specifically, when it in fact performs better in almost all areas than many other standard stainless steel offerings.

I wonder if it's more due to the M390 family being a direct competitor to Magnacut, than anything else. I would expect a newcomer to talk smack about their top competition, that would make sense. It's not necessarily a dig at the quality of the competition, but rather standard marketing strategies to promote your new offering.
M390 is slightly less tough than S30V, according to the tests I've seen, so between this and the lower corrosion resistance (compared to Magnacut), I wouldn't necessarily consider it a direct competitor.

S90V offers more toughness than M390, more edge retention, and is much less likely to chip, which is why some people prefer it over M390. In my experience, S90V is a better steel for draw cuts, due to it's higher vanadium content. S90V feels "toothy" and aggressive, which makes a very noticeable difference in use.

I do still use the M390/204P/20CV family, but only on the rare occasion that I need to do a lot of push cuts, need more corrosion resistance, or want a steel that is less particular with regard to sharpening technique and also sharpens more quickly.

Depending on how a person uses their knives, their preferences might differ, but that doesn't mean their preferences are wrong or unjustifiable.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby JSumm » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:06 am

nattynarwhal wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:42 pm

The mule at 62-63 feels kinda like s35vn and is really easy to sharpen. I have a custom at 65 which feels a lot glassier on non diamond stones. Still sharpenable, but I’d definitely use diamonds.
Wandering_About wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:44 pm

I think it feels a lot like S35VN on my diamond stones. CPM CurWear feels similar as well. I do feel like MagnaCut deburrs and takes to a sticky sharp edge more easily, but if you do the job right any of these steels will get just as sharp in the end.
Thank you that's helpful!
- Jeff
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby Eli Chaps » Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:38 am

salimoneus wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 9:37 pm

Sure, with the M390 family being one of the more popular and coveted stainless steels in recent years, they typically give up some toughness as a trade-off. But that's not uncommon at all, and in fact it's expected. M390 has shown to be a fair bit tougher than S30V, and many other popular "stainless" steels.

So it just seems odd for Larrin to single out his dislike for M390 specifically, when it in fact performs better in almost all areas than many other standard stainless steel offerings.

I wonder if it's more due to the M390 family being a direct competitor to Magnacut, than anything else. I would expect a newcomer to talk smack about their top competition, that would make sense. It's not necessarily a dig at the quality of the competition, but rather standard marketing strategies to promote your new offering.
Not only is what you're saying wrong, but now you're questioning the integrity of Dr. Larrin Thomas. And, just like with Deadboxhero, you don't offer a stitch of data, any data, let alone your own, to back up your assertions and ponderings.

Your closed mindedness is only overshadowed by your arrogance and both are unfortunate traits.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby JSumm » Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:19 am

Dr. Larrin can surely speak for himself, but I do not recall him poo pooing M390 or its equivalents. He recommended it at one time, but roughly a year ago switched the recommendation to S90V over M390 if you are looking for stainless with edge retention balance. Again, never poo pooed M390.

MagnaCut is not meant to be a competitor to M390 or its equivalents from what I have read. From Dr. Larrin's own testing, M390 and it equivalents have higher edge retention. Even S30V can out perform MagnaCut there. It is more about balance. The exciting part is, that MagnaCut may be the best we have seen at balancing so many attributes while performing at high levels in all of those attributes. In other words, doing great at many things with no shortfalls. Again, not the best at many things, but great at many things.

If it sharpens like some have reported, then for someone like me with questionable sharpening ability, this is very exciting.
- Jeff
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby kennethsime » Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:54 am

Well said, Jeff.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.

Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby wrdwrght » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:07 am

Wandering_About wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 8:44 pm
JSumm wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:12 pm
If I missed this I apologize. From a sharpening standpoint, what does Magnacut compare to? Or what is the closest steel as far as sharpening response?
I think it feels a lot like S35VN on my diamond stones. CPM CurWear feels similar as well. I do feel like MagnaCut deburrs and takes to a sticky sharp edge more easily, but if you do the job right any of these steels will get just as sharp in the end.
This, alone, could put MagnaCut among my faves.
-Marc (pocketing a Slysz SwayBack today)

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby wrdwrght » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:23 am

kennethsime wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:54 am
Well said, Jeff.
Indeed.

If memory serves, I would just add that Larrin’s only objection to M390 was/is the hype surrounding it.
-Marc (pocketing a Slysz SwayBack today)

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby salimoneus » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 am

JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:19 am
Dr. Larrin can surely speak for himself, but I do not recall him poo pooing M390 or its equivalents. He recommended it at one time, but roughly a year ago switched the recommendation to S90V over M390 if you are looking for stainless with edge retention balance. Again, never poo pooed M390.

MagnaCut is not meant to be a competitor to M390 or its equivalents from what I have read. From Dr. Larrin's own testing, M390 and it equivalents have higher edge retention. Even S30V can out perform MagnaCut there. It is more about balance. The exciting part is, that MagnaCut may be the best we have seen at balancing so many attributes while performing at high levels in all of those attributes. In other words, doing great at many things with no shortfalls. Again, not the best at many things, but great at many things.

If it sharpens like some have reported, then for someone like me with questionable sharpening ability, this is very exciting.
Sure it's right here, I heard both "one of the hottest steels right now" and "my least favorite" mentioned. It was even said with a disclaimer that it would be a controversial statement:

https://youtu.be/Gua-8l4a_Mw?t=1081

If Magnacut is intended to be used in folders, then it's certainly going to be a direct competitor. There's definitely some marketing going on there. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for Magnacut, it looks very promising. I think people just need to adjust their expectations, because as we all know the hype game is super strong in the knife world. Why else would these sprint runs with the next best shiny new steels sell out in 5 minutes. But hey, I too am interested in seeing how this one turns out in production knives. I just expect it to be a compromise like everything else, until proven otherwise.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby tomhosangoutdoors » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:07 am

salimoneus wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 am
JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:19 am
Dr. Larrin can surely speak for himself, but I do not recall him poo pooing M390 or its equivalents. He recommended it at one time, but roughly a year ago switched the recommendation to S90V over M390 if you are looking for stainless with edge retention balance. Again, never poo pooed M390.

MagnaCut is not meant to be a competitor to M390 or its equivalents from what I have read. From Dr. Larrin's own testing, M390 and it equivalents have higher edge retention. Even S30V can out perform MagnaCut there. It is more about balance. The exciting part is, that MagnaCut may be the best we have seen at balancing so many attributes while performing at high levels in all of those attributes. In other words, doing great at many things with no shortfalls. Again, not the best at many things, but great at many things.

If it sharpens like some have reported, then for someone like me with questionable sharpening ability, this is very exciting.
Sure it's right here, I heard both "one of the hottest steels right now" and "my least favorite" mentioned. It was even said with a disclaimer that it would be a controversial statement:

https://youtu.be/Gua-8l4a_Mw?t=1081

If Magnacut is intended to be used in folders, then it's certainly going to be a direct competitor. There's definitely some marketing going on there. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for Magnacut, it looks very promising. I think people just need to adjust their expectations, because as we all know the hype game is super strong in the knife world. Why else would these sprint runs with the next best shiny new steels sell out in 5 minutes. But hey, I too am interested in seeing how this one turns out in production knives. I just expect it to be a compromise like everything else, until proven otherwise.
Weird, because I didn't interpret his response that way. He didn't bash it, just provided his opinion on the matter just like you're doing here. In his experience and data, it was not as tough as most universally regard it. He mentioned how it had good edge retention and was actually pretty easy to sharpen given the carbide volume. He was simply giving his opinion on a question the interviewer asked. I'm failing to see how that was "promoting Magnacut."

In regards to MC, I was also extremely skeptical because hype can really drive expectations through the roof. In the few MC blades I've got my hands on I've been extremely impressed. Definitely living up to the expectations so far. Time will tell as more users get their hands on some though.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby JSumm » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:39 am

salimoneus wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 am
JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:19 am
Dr. Larrin can surely speak for himself, but I do not recall him poo pooing M390 or its equivalents. He recommended it at one time, but roughly a year ago switched the recommendation to S90V over M390 if you are looking for stainless with edge retention balance. Again, never poo pooed M390.

MagnaCut is not meant to be a competitor to M390 or its equivalents from what I have read. From Dr. Larrin's own testing, M390 and it equivalents have higher edge retention. Even S30V can out perform MagnaCut there. It is more about balance. The exciting part is, that MagnaCut may be the best we have seen at balancing so many attributes while performing at high levels in all of those attributes. In other words, doing great at many things with no shortfalls. Again, not the best at many things, but great at many things.

If it sharpens like some have reported, then for someone like me with questionable sharpening ability, this is very exciting.
Sure it's right here, I heard both "one of the hottest steels right now" and "my least favorite" mentioned. It was even said with a disclaimer that it would be a controversial statement:

https://youtu.be/Gua-8l4a_Mw?t=1081

If Magnacut is intended to be used in folders, then it's certainly going to be a direct competitor. There's definitely some marketing going on there. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for Magnacut, it looks very promising. I think people just need to adjust their expectations, because as we all know the hype game is super strong in the knife world. Why else would these sprint runs with the next best shiny new steels sell out in 5 minutes. But hey, I too am interested in seeing how this one turns out in production knives. I just expect it to be a compromise like everything else, until proven otherwise.
I think just overhyped is the issue with the M390 steels. I think the point he was making with S90V is you get more edge retention with similar toughness and only a small loss in corrosion resistance. He did bring up a good point about technology coming a long way since those steel(M390) were developed. I think there are just better options for high edge retention with similar or better toughness. I believe that is the point of the analysis.

If someone were to just care about wear resistance, there are a lot of options that are on the market that will beat Magnacut. Multiples options if you are a Spyderco fan. Thank you Sal & Eric for the options! There are just trade offs with those steels.

I think the important thing to keep expectations in line with Magnacut is that it is not intended to be the best in one particular category. In the Spyderco lineup, if extreme corrosion resistance is the desire, H-1 can solve that. If extreme edge retention is the desire Maxamet can solve that. 4V and Cruwear have a good balance of toughness and edge retention, but not as much corrosion resistance compared to M390. But, what if you had a 4V like product (toughness/edge retention) with similar corrosion resistance to M390 that could also be ground and sharpened like a tool steel. That would be exciting.
- Jeff
Let your feet be warm & dry, and your throats warm with whiskey. A knife in hand or in the sock band.
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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby nattynarwhal » Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:57 pm

JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:39 am
salimoneus wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:39 am
JSumm wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:19 am
Dr. Larrin can surely speak for himself, but I do not recall him poo pooing M390 or its equivalents. He recommended it at one time, but roughly a year ago switched the recommendation to S90V over M390 if you are looking for stainless with edge retention balance. Again, never poo pooed M390.

MagnaCut is not meant to be a competitor to M390 or its equivalents from what I have read. From Dr. Larrin's own testing, M390 and it equivalents have higher edge retention. Even S30V can out perform MagnaCut there. It is more about balance. The exciting part is, that MagnaCut may be the best we have seen at balancing so many attributes while performing at high levels in all of those attributes. In other words, doing great at many things with no shortfalls. Again, not the best at many things, but great at many things.

If it sharpens like some have reported, then for someone like me with questionable sharpening ability, this is very exciting.
Sure it's right here, I heard both "one of the hottest steels right now" and "my least favorite" mentioned. It was even said with a disclaimer that it would be a controversial statement:

https://youtu.be/Gua-8l4a_Mw?t=1081

If Magnacut is intended to be used in folders, then it's certainly going to be a direct competitor. There's definitely some marketing going on there. Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling for Magnacut, it looks very promising. I think people just need to adjust their expectations, because as we all know the hype game is super strong in the knife world. Why else would these sprint runs with the next best shiny new steels sell out in 5 minutes. But hey, I too am interested in seeing how this one turns out in production knives. I just expect it to be a compromise like everything else, until proven otherwise.
I think just overhyped is the issue with the M390 steels. I think the point he was making with S90V is you get more edge retention with similar toughness and only a small loss in corrosion resistance. He did bring up a good point about technology coming a long way since those steel(M390) were developed. I think there are just better options for high edge retention with similar or better toughness. I believe that is the point of the analysis.

If someone were to just care about wear resistance, there are a lot of options that are on the market that will beat Magnacut. Multiples options if you are a Spyderco fan. Thank you Sal & Eric for the options! There are just trade offs with those steels.

I think the important thing to keep expectations in line with Magnacut is that it is not intended to be the best in one particular category. In the Spyderco lineup, if extreme corrosion resistance is the desire, H-1 can solve that. If extreme edge retention is the desire Maxamet can solve that. 4V and Cruwear have a good balance of toughness and edge retention, but not as much corrosion resistance compared to M390. But, what if you had a 4V like product (toughness/edge retention) with similar corrosion resistance to M390 that could also be ground and sharpened like a tool steel. That would be exciting.
A forum member here (surfgringo) has been testing the corrosion resistance of magnacut, and he found it to be more similar to Lc200n than m390. Might be a tiny bit less corrosion resistant than Lc200n, but I’d definitely consider it a steel you could use on a boat or kayak.

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Re: CPM MagnaCut | Edge Performance

Postby JSumm » Fri Jan 28, 2022 4:56 pm

nattynarwhal wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 12:57 pm

A forum member here (surfgringo) has been testing the corrosion resistance of magnacut, and he found it to be more similar to Lc200n than m390. Might be a tiny bit less corrosion resistant than Lc200n, but I’d definitely consider it a steel you could use on a boat or kayak.
Most definitely. I'm following along too. My last sentence was more of a tease, or what some may call, foreshadowing.
- Jeff
Let your feet be warm & dry, and your throats warm with whiskey. A knife in hand or in the sock band.
**Current Pocket Hogs** Gayle Bradley 2, Pacific Salt LC200N, Caly 3.5 ZDP-189/420J2
MNOSD Member #0005


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