New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#61

Post by Brock O Lee »

How low to drop the edge angle? It’s like tightening a fastener. Tighten until you strip the threads, then back off a quarter turn... ;)
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#62

Post by Revival »

Thank you Larrin….your work is appreciated!
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#63

Post by chronovore »

It's important to note that these are "ideal" values for edge retention. They diverge significantly from industry standards and how some of these steels actually perform in the knives that use them.

For instance, notice that 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, and Nitro-V have equal edge retention ratings while 440A has a higher rating. Does this surprise anyone else? Using current production knives in these steels, Nitro-V and 14C28N have significantly better edge retention than 8Cr13Mov and 440A.

I'd love to see this addressed by Larrin. I've wondered why these trends exist and whether some of these steels are just easier to heat treat at the mass-production level. For instance, I often get better edge retention from 12C27 than I do 8Cr13Mov. Why is that?
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#64

Post by Gtscotty »

chronovore wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:03 pm
It's important to note that these are "ideal" values for edge retention. They diverge significantly from industry standards and how some of these steels actually perform in the knives that use them.

For instance, notice that 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, and Nitro-V have equal edge retention ratings while 440A has a higher rating. Does this surprise anyone else? Using current production knives in these steels, Nitro-V and 14C28N have significantly better edge retention than 8Cr13Mov and 440A.

I'd love to see this addressed by Larrin. I've wondered why these trends exist and whether some of these steels are just easier to heat treat at the mass-production level. For instance, I often get better edge retention from 12C27 than I do 8Cr13Mov. Why is that?

He clearly states the following in the article:

" The ratings I have are for an “optimal” heat treatment. By that I don’t mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. "

And even cites another of his articles that goes into all the ways manufacturers can screw up heat treats. What more do you want?
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#65

Post by bleasure »

Gtscotty wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:35 pm
chronovore wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:03 pm

I'd love to see this addressed by Larrin. I've wondered why these trends exist and whether some of these steels are just easier to heat treat at the mass-production level. For instance, I often get better edge retention from 12C27 than I do 8Cr13Mov. Why is that?
He clearly states the following in the article:

" The ratings I have are for an “optimal” heat treatment. By that I don’t mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. "

And even cites another of his articles that goes into all the ways manufacturers can screw up heat treats. What more do you want?
chronovore is making a different point than the one you're answering. they're rightly highlighting the abstraction of the charts, and nodding to the multitude of variables intrinsic to actual production processes and material reality. by abstraction i don't mean 'absence of data gathered through experimentation.' i mean what its author has acknowledged: interpretive idealization based on explicit parameters, shared standards and definitions, and experimental data produced within those confines, aka what any classic positivist would describe as "science." the graphs/results as a whole represent a data value of let's call it "1;" there is value in them by a specific definition (vs. for instance, the value of X knife tester's results on YT) because of the rationalized approach taken in the generation of that data, which has then been translated into graphic representation here. but as I expect their author would readily acknowledge, they are only one collection of results, achieved in specific ways, using specific decisions and specific samples, that in order to be truly generalizable would require much more experimentation with equally defined parameters, using the same and different methods. the author's core claim is that their results are measurably superior to the Minnowesque Vast Wasteland of 'steel ranking' nonsense out there, not that they are the final, only, or even the complete word on the subject. i'm sure more will come down the pike from others.

but all that is beside the question chronovore appears interested in, as i undestand them: not simply about heat treats, but about the mix of complex variables that are consistent enough to result in 'real use' differences consistent enough for them to notice. whether or not that question can be easily or meaningfully answered is hard to say. one would have to know more details about the knives chronovore has used - and whether or not they're actually physically comparable in terms of edge angle, sharpening, stock, etc etc - that have led them to make this observation. but it's a harmless question/musing imo.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#66

Post by Gtscotty »

bleasure wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:36 pm
Gtscotty wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:35 pm
chronovore wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:03 pm

I'd love to see this addressed by Larrin. I've wondered why these trends exist and whether some of these steels are just easier to heat treat at the mass-production level. For instance, I often get better edge retention from 12C27 than I do 8Cr13Mov. Why is that?
He clearly states the following in the article:

" The ratings I have are for an “optimal” heat treatment. By that I don’t mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. "

And even cites another of his articles that goes into all the ways manufacturers can screw up heat treats. What more do you want?
chronovore is making a different point than the one you're answering. they're rightly highlighting the abstraction of the charts, and nodding to the multitude of variables intrinsic to actual production processes and material reality. by abstraction i don't mean 'absence of data gathered through experimentation.' i mean what its author has acknowledged: interpretive idealization based on explicit parameters, shared standards and definitions, and experimental data produced within those confines, aka what any classic positivist would describe as "science." the graphs/results as a whole represent a data value of let's call it "1;" there is value in them by a specific definition (vs. for instance, the value of X knife tester's results on YT) because of the rationalized approach taken in the generation of that data, which has then been translated into graphic representation here. but as I expect their author would readily acknowledge, they are only one collection of results, achieved in specific ways, using specific decisions and specific samples, that in order to be truly generalizable would require much more experimentation with equally defined parameters, using the same and different methods. the author's core claim is that their results are measurably superior to the Minnowesque Vast Wasteland of 'steel ranking' nonsense out there, not that they are the final, only, or even the complete word on the subject. i'm sure more will come down the pike from others.

but all that is beside the question chronovore appears interested in, as i undestand them: not simply about heat treats, but about the mix of complex variables that are consistent enough to result in 'real use' differences consistent enough for them to notice. whether or not that question can be easily or meaningfully answered is hard to say. one would have to know more details about the knives chronovore has used - and whether or not they're actually physically comparable in terms of edge angle, sharpening, stock, etc etc - that have led them to make this observation. but it's a harmless question/musing imo.
No, I believe I answered his question in the only reasonable way it can be answered, by asking "What more do you want?"

Of course Larrin heat treated all the steel samples to a general optimal standard such that "major mistakes in heat treating are avoided." How else could he have generated the information for this comparison in a way that is useful or makes sense without using this sort of "best practices" baseline. Given that the goal was to give people easy and somewhat simplified guideline tools for comparing various steels available on the market there's really no other practical way to do it.

So back to What more does chronovore want?

- An enormous study that catalogs real edge retention, toughness and corrosion resistance values for all steel offerings from tens of knife manufacturers over decades of production?

Obviously this isn't remotely feasible, but without real "industry standards" for the heat treatment of all of these steels (that is the base assumption of the whole question anyway isn't it), how else can you get the more mass production representative values desired.

- Measured values that more closely match internet knife lore, preconceived assumptions, and subjective observations from using blades of varying geometry, optimization, sharpness, etc?

I suspect this is the real ask, but we are already awash in this kind of less than useful "information". The most interesting characteristic of Larrin's scientifically sound, transparent and repeatable data is that it does not fall into this cognitive trap.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#67

Post by Soanso McMasters »

Henry_P wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 5:27 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:30 pm
z1r wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:12 pm
TomAiello wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:03 am


Spyderco's s110v has been substantially more stain resistant than Spyderco's s90v, in my uses. I prefer s90v for general use, but if I'm doing something where corrosion resistance is also important, I might opt for s110v.

Great point. One that doesn't apply to me since S90V is more than corrosion resistant for my needs and I'd prefer the toughness & edge retention of S90V or S110V. But other may find that additional corrosion resistance beneficial. Thanks for pointing that out!

Are there any Spydercos in S90V in the current line up (and somewhat available)?
S90v lil native still in stock at many retailers.
Can you direct me to a few that are good? Thanks!
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#68

Post by chronovore »

Gtscotty wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 8:22 pm
bleasure wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:36 pm
Gtscotty wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:35 pm
chronovore wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 4:03 pm

I'd love to see this addressed by Larrin. I've wondered why these trends exist and whether some of these steels are just easier to heat treat at the mass-production level. For instance, I often get better edge retention from 12C27 than I do 8Cr13Mov. Why is that?
He clearly states the following in the article:

" The ratings I have are for an “optimal” heat treatment. By that I don’t mean that a better heat treatment is not possible, but that major mistakes in heat treating are avoided. It is certainly possible for a knifemaker or heat treating company to do a heat treatment that will have suboptimal properties. I have an article that lists off the major mistakes often made in heat treating. "

And even cites another of his articles that goes into all the ways manufacturers can screw up heat treats. What more do you want?
chronovore is making a different point than the one you're answering. ...
No, I believe I answered his question...
The point is more that the difference between these ideally heat-treated blades and the actual blades that people get IRL can be hugely significant and at least in some cases, consistent. Larrin is absolutely right about bad information being endemic. So I think it might have been worth spending a little more time on the difference between actual and ideal. It doesn't take tons of independent studies or whatever. There may be complications in running actual knives through CATRA but some of these trends are fairly well-known, either from serious use or less scientific but still reasonably consistent cut testers like Cedric & Ada, Super Steel Steve, and Outpost 76.

I mentioned some of the steels with glaring exceptions. For those who have extensively used actual knives where these steels are used, you know that 8Cr13Mov tends to fall short of 14C28N, Nitro-V, and lots of other steels. Does anyone have extensive experience with current models in 440A, such as the inexpensive knives from Boker? Is actual performance better or worse than 8Cr13Mov?

We see a similar situation with D2. The current market is saturated with budget knives in D2. These are the "D2" knives that lots of people are going to get. Excluding brands like Eafengrow with false steel stamps, the D2 in these knives consistently falls short of expectations based on the ideal and can sometimes be outperformed by similarly priced knives in 14C28N or Nitro-V.

The fact that these differences exist is interesting and it may be valuable to explore that. As knife users, I think there is value to us in having knife ratings that better reflect these steels as we would actually be getting them. I'm also interested in why some steels seem to outperform their ideal or predictive values versus why some seem to consistently under-perform.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#69

Post by Naperville »

Spyderco has a good reputation for delivering knives with properly treated steels. I've never had a ton of money, and I don't have Larrin's expertise, so I buy Spyderco knives. I bought a few ZTs too, they seem to have a good reputation. I'd trust Buck, because the people doing their heat treat is well known. I don't have many Benchmade knives, but I'd imagine they are also OK.

It wasn't that long ago that manufacturers started using better grade steels, and until there are more tests run on the various knives, I'll just stick with what I know.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#70

Post by RamZar »

Very informative. :clapping-hands

Definitely confirms, dispels and highlights various viewpoints. :respect

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Last edited by RamZar on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#71

Post by vivi »

z1r wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:04 pm
zuludelta wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:21 am
z1r wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:56 am
What actually surprised me was how well 8Cr13MoV faired. It gets so much crap talked about it but it holds an edge so much better than many HC steels and is definitely more corrosion resistant. And, in the Spyderco lineup, it's very affordable.
I think otherwise decent, affordable steels like AUS-8/8Cr13MoV and 440C develop a bad reputation partly because the market is flooded with cheap knives in those steels that have been poorly heat-treated or have really terrible edge geometry.

Spyderco does a good job with its 8Cr13MoV knives, but there are so many companies out there that regularly pump out 8Cr13MoV knives with edges that are ground terribly, & therefore not giving the steel the chance to perform anywhere close to its potential.
I have to agree, the 8Cr13NoV in my Byrds and Tenacious are head & shoulder above the same steel in another maker's knife I own. Night and day.
Agreed. I keep saying the CE Resilience in 8Cr is a very high performance knife for the $$. Takes a fantastic edge and holds it well enough for my day to day chores.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#72

Post by vivi »

Sharp Guy wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 7:25 pm
Karl_H wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:37 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:56 am

As far as I know (just what I heard) HAP 40 is run "softer" than REX 45 indeed. They say HAP 40can´t be as hard due to the cladding with SUS410 (again, just repeating what I read).

Now, from what you say, being a bit softer could actually be an advantage.

Still: My REX 45 Manix LW seems to be really tough in my use (just like my HAP40 knives). Not a scientific measurement at all of course, and perhaps in the typical pocket knife use extreme toughness is of not much relevance anyway... unless it allows for more acute edge angles!
I have a SUS410 clad HAP40 knife that is nominally heat treated to 65HRC, which seems significantly tougher than my REX45 Native 5.

I reprofiled the edge bevel my REX 45 Native 5 to 15 degrees per side and have had a lot of chipping issues. I am trying to slowly increase the bevel angle, until I stop getting excessive chipping. Cutting rubber inner tubes and whittling wood did a lot of damage my edge.
I reprofile all my knives to 15 dps and never have chipping issues. I whittle hardwood to test my edges and just kill time and never have a problem. I've reprofiled several HAP 40 knives but I guess I haven't done any of my REX 45 knives yet. Now I'm curious to see what'll happen. I'll do my Native LW first and then my Para 3 since I carry those the most
My Rex45 Chief is around 13dps no microbevel. No issues with edge stability, and I've cut plenty of wood.
:unicorn
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#73

Post by vivi »

chronovore wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:10 pm
I mentioned some of the steels with glaring exceptions. For those who have extensively used actual knives where these steels are used, you know that 8Cr13Mov tends to fall short of 14C28N, Nitro-V, and lots of other steels.
This has not been my experience. I have gotten as good of edge retention out of Spyderco 8Cr as any 13C27 or 14C28N I've tried.

The swedish steels have an advantage in corrosion resistance in my experience though.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#74

Post by RamZar »

For those of us where corrosion resistance is of primary concern it’s good to see so many stainless steels we know side by side for toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Wish H1 was included like others in the corrosion resistant 10 rating: LC200N and Vanax. I have some knives in H1 and LC200N but not Vanax yet. I’m much more familiar with those in the 9-9.5 corrosion resistant rating like: M390/20CV/204P (favorite EDC steel for corrosion resistance and edge retention in a small 3” blade length folder). Of course, MagnaCut is begging to be tried.

Image
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#75

Post by Bolster »

Thanks Larrin! ... I look forward to memorizing this!
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#76

Post by James Y »

RamZar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:03 pm
For those of us where corrosion resistance is of primary concern it’s good to see so many stainless steels we know side by side for toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Wish H1 was included like others in the corrosion resistant 10 rating: LC200N and Vanax. I have some knives in H1 and LC200N but not Vanax yet. I’m much more familiar with those in the 9-9.5 corrosion resistant rating like: M390/20CV/204P (favorite EDC steel for corrosion resistance and edge retention in a small 3” blade length folder). Of course, MagnaCut is begging to be tried.

Image

Interesting. I thought S45VN was supposed to have an advantage in toughness over S30V, but this chart shows them both rating a 4 in toughness.

I’m sure that actual use in various blades/grinds, heat treats, etc., will yield results that differ from the chart to varying degrees.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#77

Post by Wartstein »

Double post
Last edited by Wartstein on Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#78

Post by Wartstein »

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:44 pm
z1r wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:04 pm
zuludelta wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 11:21 am
z1r wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 10:56 am
....
......
I have to agree, the 8Cr13NoV in my Byrds and Tenacious are head & shoulder above the same steel in another maker's knife I own. Night and day.
Agreed. I keep saying the CE Resilience in 8Cr is a very high performance knife for the $$. Takes a fantastic edge and holds it well enough for my day to day chores.
Makes me think if I should really wait for a Tenacious LW and full SE in S35VN... perhaps a full SE Tenacious in Spydercos 8CR is not that far behind, will hold an edge good enough (since SE holds an edge better than PE anyway) and will on top be easier to sharpen..(and then almost a steal for the price it comes...)
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#79

Post by RamZar »

James Y wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:54 pm
RamZar wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 11:03 pm
For those of us where corrosion resistance is of primary concern it’s good to see so many stainless steels we know side by side for toughness, edge retention and corrosion resistance. Wish H1 was included like others in the corrosion resistant 10 rating: LC200N and Vanax. I have some knives in H1 and LC200N but not Vanax yet. I’m much more familiar with those in the 9-9.5 corrosion resistant rating like: M390/20CV/204P (favorite EDC steel for corrosion resistance and edge retention in a small 3” blade length folder). Of course, MagnaCut is begging to be tried.

Image

Interesting. I thought S45VN was supposed to have an advantage in toughness over S30V, but this chart shows them both rating a 4 in toughness.

I’m sure that actual use in various blades/grinds, heat treats, etc., will yield results that differ from the chart to varying degrees.

Jim
RamZar wrote:
Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:37 am
Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Oct 16, 2021 11:59 pm
What does S45VN bring to the table that we don't already have, except for being a new steel? I mean seriously. Cool looking knife, though.

See article:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/11/01/ ... 5vn-steel/

S45VN offers better corrosion resistance and toughness than S30V with the same edge retention.

This is what the S45VN Article said:

“The main changes we expect from S45VN vs S35VN and S30V are an improvement in corrosion resistance due to the increase in Cr of about 1%. We expect a reduction in toughness when compared with S35VN because of the increase in total carbide content. The design including niobium and nitrogen additions should help maintain toughness similar to or better than S30V.”

“S45VN has only slightly reduced toughness when compared with S35VN, and S45VN is an improvement over S30V, particularly when hardness is factored in:”

Image

“The S45VN datasheet provides a number for CATRA edge retention relative to 440C, which it lists as 143%. This is in comparison with 440C which is 100%, S30V at 145%, and M390/20CV at 180%. However, the datasheet has an asterisk next to the 143% value and says that it is “based upon market feedback.” These estimates should perhaps be treated with some suspicion as the S35VN datasheet has the same asterisk for its 145% value which puts it at the same level as S30V, but independent experiments put S35VN around 132% at 61 Rc [8]. The same study found values for 61 Rc S30V at 149% and 61.5 Rc M390 at 179% [8], which are similar to those given by Crucible (though for 20CV rather than M390). However, Bob Skibitski of Crucible confirmed to me that the 143% number is based on actual CATRA experiments. Interestingly, the S45VN datasheet has a newly adjusted CATRA value of S35VN of 140%, better reflecting the somewhat reduced edge retention of S35VN when compared with S30V.”
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Re: New Knife Steel Ratings by Knife Steel Nerds

#80

Post by sal »

Hi Larrin. Very nicely done! Thanx much for the work and for sharing.

sal
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