I am - again - surprised how relatively "bad" REX45/HAP 40 fares. Especially how really not spectacular its toughness actually is. Of course I don't doubt the results at all (!), but this is different to what - also experienced - knife users always tend to say and also different to my own experience.
M4 seems to be the clearly better choice here: About the same edge retention, noticeable tougher.
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I think Spyderco ran their Rex 45 too hard. Larrin tried to replicate the Spyderco heat treatment, which basically means that it wasn’t tempered for long enough to achieve an more optimal level of toughness. Tempering REX45 to 65 HRC would have resulted in a better balance of properties, in my opinion.
I think most Japanese knife makers that use HAP40 (Hitachi equivalent of REX 45) temper it down to about 65 HRC.
As far as I know (just what I heard) HAP 40 is run "softer" than REX 45 indeed. They say HAP 40can´t be as hard due to the cladding with SUS410 (again, just repeating what I read).
Now, from what you say, being a bit softer could actually be an advantage.
Still: My REX 45 Manix LW seems to be really tough in my use (just like my HAP40 knives). Not a scientific measurement at all of course, and perhaps in the typical pocket knife use extreme toughness is of not much relevance anyway... unless it allows for more acute edge angles!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Been preaching the LC200N for quite some time. My first intro to it was my Zwilling Cronidur 30 (aka lc200n) chef knife a decade ago. Never chipped it. I really only need to tune the edge and it is quite thin BTE. I now have the whole knife set but it is pricey at about 3k https://www.zwilling.com/us/zwilling/cutlery/twin-1731/
I hope Spyderco makes a kitchen set from LC200N so more people can enjoy this steel in the daily in the kitchen.
Mule Team Army 001
MNOSD 008 Stable Mules; Z-Max, Z-Wear, Magna Cut, SRS13, Rex 76, Rex T15.
Am I missing something or is K390 not included in the ratings?
I haven’t tested the toughness of K390 so I decided not to rate it. It is in between Vanadis 8 and 10V for edge retention, closer to Vanadis 8.
I wonder if spyderco fans can crowdsource funding for K390 testing? I know we're all thirsting for it, and I'm wondering if the reputation for relatively high toughness for its edge retention holds up to actual testing.
I am - again - surprised how relatively "bad" REX45/HAP 40 fares. Especially how really not spectacular its toughness actually is. Of course I don't doubt the results at all (!), but this is different to what - also experienced - knife users always tend to say and also different to my own experience.
M4 seems to be the clearly better choice here: About the same edge retention, noticeable tougher.
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The ratings for Rex 45 are brought down some by the fact that it is used at high hardness only. But even if it was 62 Rc CPM-M4 would be both more wear resistant and tougher.
Thanks for the explanation!
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
I'm curious about ease of sharpening/grinding ratings for all the steels too, as I think that is a very important criteria for knife purchases by end users. Is it a simple inverse linear relationship with edge retention/wear resistance, or is it more complex than that? I know that some steels have a reputation for being relatively easy to sharpen for their edge performance, but I don't think reputation means much without data, but AFAIK there is no good testing methodology for this aspect.
I am - again - surprised how relatively "bad" REX45/HAP 40 fares. Especially how really not spectacular its toughness actually is. Of course I don't doubt the results at all (!), but this is different to what - also experienced - knife users always tend to say and also different to my own experience.
M4 seems to be the clearly better choice here: About the same edge retention, noticeable tougher.
Same feelings here.
I think it all comes down to personal preferences in use. REX45 is one of my favourite steels because I can get it scary sharp with very little effort and I really enjoy it in everday carry (I also don't care very much for corrosion resistance in most cases).
I'm curious about ease of sharpening/grinding ratings for all the steels too, as I think that is a very important criteria for knife purchases by end users. Is it a simple inverse linear relationship with edge retention/wear resistance, or is it more complex than that? I know that some steels have a reputation for being relatively easy to sharpen for their edge performance, but I don't think reputation means much without data, but AFAIK there is no good testing methodology for this aspect.
Am I missing something or is K390 not included in the ratings?
I haven’t tested the toughness of K390 so I decided not to rate it. It is in between Vanadis 8 and 10V for edge retention, closer to Vanadis 8.
I wonder if spyderco fans can crowdsource funding for K390 testing? I know we're all thirsting for it, and I'm wondering if the reputation for relatively high toughness for its edge retention holds up to actual testing.
The limitation has been that I don’t have any in an appropriate size. Need 1/8” stock.
My problem is I use them but I also love sharpening (or at least stropping to keep them keen) so I could likely have pot metal and it would hold up between touch ups. That said, I have been very happy with my ZDP189 and I am looking forward to using the M4 and CruWear PM2s I just bought. My trusty VG10 endura has been the most “chippy” steel thus far so we shall see how the harder ZDP189 is over time.
I have to admit my fixed blade hard use field knives tend to be O1, 1095 or 52100 so haven’t had much issue with getting and keeping them sharp.
With how tough LC200N is, you would think we would see more large knives and choppers from that steel. I think I need a LC200N machete.
Magna Cut will hopefully be ubiquitous come next year. I only have one knife on order in it right now.
Mule Team Army 001
MNOSD 008 Stable Mules; Z-Max, Z-Wear, Magna Cut, SRS13, Rex 76, Rex T15.
With how tough LC200N is, you would think we would see more large knives and choppers from that steel. I think I need a LC200N machete.
Magna Cut will hopefully be ubiquitous come next year. I only have one knife on order in it right now.
I wonder if the difficult heat treating regimen makes larger blades more difficult than other steels.
What actually surprised me was how well 8Cr13MoV faired. It gets so much crap talked about it but it holds an edge so much better than many HC steels and is definitely more corrosion resistant. And, in the Spyderco lineup, it's very affordable.
I think otherwise decent, affordable steels like AUS-8/8Cr13MoV and 440C develop a bad reputation partly because the market is flooded with cheap knives in those steels that have been poorly heat-treated or have really terrible edge geometry.
Spyderco does a good job with its 8Cr13MoV knives, but there are so many companies out there that regularly pump out 8Cr13MoV knives with edges that are ground terribly, & therefore not giving the steel the chance to perform anywhere close to its potential.
I have to agree, the 8Cr13NoV in my Byrds and Tenacious are head & shoulder above the same steel in another maker's knife I own. Night and day.
Me too, thanks. A cursory look and it seems that I was right in questioning whether I needed an S110V N5 since I already have an S90V.
Spyderco's s110v has been substantially more stain resistant than Spyderco's s90v, in my uses. I prefer s90v for general use, but if I'm doing something where corrosion resistance is also important, I might opt for s110v.
Great point. One that doesn't apply to me since S90V is more than corrosion resistant for my needs and I'd prefer the toughness & edge retention of S90V or S110V. But other may find that additional corrosion resistance beneficial. Thanks for pointing that out!
Mule Team Army 001
Stable Mules; Z-Max, Z-Wear, Magna Cut, SRS13, Rex 76, Rex T15.
