I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

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THB
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby THB » Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:35 am

Interesting thread. I have 2 PE Salt's in H1 where the hollow has been ground out - i.e. very thin with almost invisible secondary bevel. In my experience PE Salts holds an edge OK if you don't cut the object on a surface. Even a wooden cutting board will dull the PE edge quickly in my experience so I have retired my PE Salts from the kitchen. They are excellent for gutting fish in my boat where I typically don't use a cutting board. The H1 steel has a lot of toughness but seems to be very low in strength. The cardboard cutting was impressive and I am sure the low grit helped a lot. However, I am guessing that the PE edge would dull very quickly cutting rope on a hard surface. I have bought a PE Salt in LC200n but not enough experience with that yet.

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u.w.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby u.w. » Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:14 am

Interesting, and thanks for sharing.

The use I've done with mine over the past three weeks is, I've cut against a teflon cutting board numerous times (4 or more times a week) with mine in the past three weeks (cucumbers and chicken breasts), using a slicking/pull-to-me motion. I have also cut over ten avocados, edge contacting the seed/pit. I wouldn't call any of that particularly "hitting the edge", and certainly not hard use; but it is use cutting through something, and into or against something else, maybe harder.
As of yet, my low grit edge is still cutting well, and feels sharp.

As I mentioned in the "in yer pocket" thread - I'm not going out of my way to wear out the edge and/or cutting through mountains upon mountains of stuff. I'm just "normal" using it and carrying it all day, every day.
I cut up numerous cardboard boxes every day, zip-ties here and there, open envelops here and there, plastic bags daily, vines, branches, and saplings multiple times a week, and some food prep just about every day.
That I can think of, I have only "slapped" my edge into a hard surface once. 100% my stupidity. That was cutting up a cardboard box a day or two ago, and the knife went through so quickly and easily that I slapped it right into the counter top that the box was on, edge first, as you'd expect. That I can tell, it has had no effect on the cutting performance of the knife, and when I look at the edge with a flashlight - I don't see any shiny / flattened/ rolled areas - which I did expect to see - but am pleased, and happy that I didn't...

I won't tell anyone that it's great, or that it's horrible. I'll just use it, and tell what I experience.
I have zero reasons to embellish or lie.
Great, good, not good, horrible - that's for the reader to decide... There's no need for me to tell anyone what to think, ya know...

Now how much the pretty decently thinned hollow-to-edge has to do with it, I don't know. Or the fact that this is an "old" knife, that has been through numerous edges already.
It for sure seems that thinning it definitely makes it cut way easier. I can say that of all my knives that I've thinned.
But as to an effect on edge longevity. I will, admittedly ignorantly, say I don't imagine it has tons to do with that. The edge is the edge - weather or not it's thick or thin behind that edge... that edge is going to come into contact with whatever it's put to as it cuts, and that edge will part/separate whatever that is.
How thick, or thin, behind that edge, will (in my experience) effect how easily it passes through though (that's just my, perhaps ignorant, thinking).
Of course, edge angle, metal comp, what & how you're cutting, etc... are factors too, but I'd be kinda "talking above my pay grade", when we get to that.
While I very much like to experiment / try different things in regards to blade shapes, edge angles, finishes, thicknesses, different metals, heat treats, etc... and carry and use knives - I am Very far from "an expert".

I figure I'm at three weeks now... I'm a fan of what vivi brings to the forum and is doing, so I'll finish out the month at least. I'm happily learning as I go :)


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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:49 pm

THB wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:35 am
Interesting thread. I have 2 PE Salt's in H1 where the hollow has been ground out - i.e. very thin with almost invisible secondary bevel. In my experience PE Salts holds an edge OK if you don't cut the object on a surface. Even a wooden cutting board will dull the PE edge quickly in my experience so I have retired my PE Salts from the kitchen. They are excellent for gutting fish in my boat where I typically don't use a cutting board. The H1 steel has a lot of toughness but seems to be very low in strength. The cardboard cutting was impressive and I am sure the low grit helped a lot. However, I am guessing that the PE edge would dull very quickly cutting rope on a hard surface. I have bought a PE Salt in LC200n but not enough experience with that yet.
My experience is similar. PE H1 will deform more easily than something harder like K390, but it also seems more resistant to chipping.

The low grit edge helps in regards to cutting on a hard surface. If you look at them under a microscope they look like tiny serrations. So when you slice something on a cutting board only the peaks are rubbing against the surface.

I can try to take photos with a digital microscope next time I sharpen my knife. Still using that July 5th edge with no issues cutting anything.
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tonijedi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby tonijedi » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm

Any developments on the factory bevel testing?

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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby Bill1170 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:40 pm

In my kitchen are five sharp knives. The smallest is a Victorinox paring knife in their Inox stainless steel, probably 12C26 or similar. I sharpen it at 30 degrees inclusive and it cuts decently even when dull because it is FFG with a spine at 1.3 mm by the handle.

I seem to recall our old pal Cliff Stamp was a proponent of low-carbide steels sharpened at low angles for maximal cutting ability. The chip-resistant edge stability of alloys like AEB-L made very acute edge bevels feasible without huge risk of catastrophic edge chipping. These Salt blade steels are of similar ilk, and permit very high-performance geometry at far lower edge angles than would be advisable in more brittle steels.

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:42 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm
Any developments on the factory bevel testing?
What would you like to see? I have some poly rope on hand I could use for a test. Factory edge vs my edge in a rope slice test?
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby Bill1170 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:15 pm

vivi wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:42 pm
tonijedi wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:31 pm
Any developments on the factory bevel testing?
What would you like to see? I have some poly rope on hand I could use for a test. Factory edge vs my edge in a rope slice test?
That would be a delight to see numbers. I think I know what the outcome would be, but practice beats guesswork.

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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby tonijedi » Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:15 am

It's a nice start.
What do you think about doing a side by side comparison on carving wood sticks? Not for the edge retention aspect, but for the ease of cutting.

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:32 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:15 am
It's a nice start.
What do you think about doing a side by side comparison on carving wood sticks? Not for the edge retention aspect, but for the ease of cutting.
I could do that.

I'm going to put a fresh edge on my Pacific Salt.

I haven't sharpened it since the 5th, and if it weren't for wanting a fresh edge for testing it'd easily keep going another week or two, if not longer.

I've been using it every day and it still cuts well. Just sliced open a bunch of packages before I touched it up, in fact.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby u.w. » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:21 pm

Hahaha..

I was just logging on to say, I sharpened mine, and read that you have too, lol

So-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o....... what had happened wuz...
:)

I was taking of photo of mine for the, what's in yer pocket thread, and had been out riding my bike quite a bit, and thought to post them together to show that is yet another common ground.

I did that, and then as I was reaching to grab my knife off the top bar, I nudged it, and it fell, tip first, right into the cement...

Of course that flattened the tip (crushed, wrinkled, bent - NOT broke off though...),
so off to the diamond plate(s) I went, and while I was at it...
it's got a new tip, and fresh edge, lol :)

I will say that it was still sharp and working just fine for me when that happened. I had cut quite the impressive pile of saplings, vines, and branches earlier that were blocking a path, plus all the grocery stuff from the various places I'd gone shopping and got stuff, all via the bike of course.

The tip is back, but not quite how I'd like it yet - so I'll likely put a bit more time into it.

I guess I shoulda tooka photo of that crushed tip, but I didn't...
the edge was still working fine for me though..

u.w.

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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby Kevinim82 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:31 pm

Vivi et al. Thank you for this thread. Your words reinforce, market trends do not drive quality, but experimentation and education drive it.

Without your sharpening outside the preverbal box, most would continue to poopoo tough steels (H1) for having low edge retention.

Keep sharpening on!

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:42 pm

u.w. wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:21 pm
Hahaha..

I was just logging on to say, I sharpened mine, and read that you have too, lol

So-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o....... what had happened wuz...
:)

I was taking of photo of mine for the, what's in yer pocket thread, and had been out riding my bike quite a bit, and thought to post them together to show that is yet another common ground.

I did that, and then as I was reaching to grab my knife off the top bar, I nudged it, and it fell, tip first, right into the cement...

Of course that flattened the tip (crushed, wrinkled, bent - NOT broke off though...),
so off to the diamond plate(s) I went, and while I was at it...
it's got a new tip, and fresh edge, lol :)

I will say that it was still sharp and working just fine for me when that happened. I had cut quite the impressive pile of saplings, vines, and branches earlier that were blocking a path, plus all the grocery stuff from the various places I'd gone shopping and got stuff, all via the bike of course.

The tip is back, but not quite how I'd like it yet - so I'll likely put a bit more time into it.

I guess I shoulda tooka photo of that crushed tip, but I didn't...
the edge was still working fine for me though..

u.w.
Glad to hear its still doing ok! Wish we could have seen the tip damage before you fixed it.

I filmed some rope cutting tonight. I'll have a video up before long.

Next test I want to do PE LC200N VS PE H1. May do two tests, one with each edge polished, one with them toothy.
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u.w.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby u.w. » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:17 pm

Yeah, I totally should have taken a photo of that crushed tip. It was a pretty decent squash. My blade now measures a bit less than 3 3/4".

- I even had the dang camera IN MY HAND...

I saw it falling, thought "Oh Sh*t", saw it hit TIP FIRST, lol, thought "well f***"... grabbed it, saw it crushed, and not broken and just immediately thought - "oh, I can fix that easy" - and went straight to it. I fixed it before even posting photos. Gonna guess I just got to focused, to quick, and bypassed any other thoughts.

I'm curious to hear what you discover when you test H1 & LC200N.

As you know, I have a Gen 1 Salt, and the LC200N Salt 2 - both made drop point, and both thinned down noticeably, by me. I keep a 300-ish grit (DMT coarse), or 260 grit, but then de-burred on the DMT coarse, edge on both (as with all, or most, of my users, I think).



I haven't carried my modified, green handled Salt 2, in over three weeks now, goodness...

u.w.

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:09 am

Here is the rope cutting video:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VbDHhIx-ZO4
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u.w.
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby u.w. » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:04 am

Oh man! Excellent video vivi!

Thank you for taking the time, and sharing.

(not that anyone asked, but) In my own use, and experience, I'd say that your remarks and results are spot on.

u.w.

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:03 am

u.w. wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:04 am
Oh man! Excellent video vivi!

Thank you for taking the time, and sharing.

(not that anyone asked, but) In my own use, and experience, I'd say that your remarks and results are spot on.

u.w.
Glad you enjoyed it! Gonna have to find something harder on the edges to cut. The 200 grit edge lasts longer than my desire to keep slicing rope or cardboard does :D
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby cabfrank » Sun Jul 25, 2021 1:11 pm

Excellent, thanks for doing it.

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tonijedi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby tonijedi » Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:36 pm

Thank you for the video, it really shows how the user (or person behind the sharpener) can make a big difference.

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vivi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby vivi » Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:58 pm

tonijedi wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:36 pm
Thank you for the video, it really shows how the user (or person behind the sharpener) can make a big difference.
That's been my goal with these comparisons.

The difference in edge holding between these two identical knives is a greater difference than I find between PE H1 and PE S30V - assuming both are sharpened the same way.

Considering how many factory bevels we see in the "What's in your pocket?" thread, that's a lot of untapped cutting potential in my opinion.

Down the road I'd like to compare a 200 grit H1 knife to K390 or Rex45 taken to an ultrafine polish. But LC200N is next up.
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tonijedi
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Re: I'm going to EDC PE H1 until August

Postby tonijedi » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:17 pm

Keep up the good work!


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