Using folders unlocked

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Danke
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Danke » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:11 pm

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:36 pm
VashHash wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:02 pm
I use my folders unlocked only for light batoning (making kindling from smaller pieces of wood or dry branches)

But looking at your pics this seems to be a viable method in certain scenarios. I´ll have to try this! :)
I have heard about using them unlocked for batoning but never tried it.
It's fun, try it :)
Image
Those are rookie numbers

Image

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ladybug93
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby ladybug93 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:17 pm

Danke wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:11 pm
Those are rookie numbers
🤣
C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C130G, PLKIT1

Spydergirl88
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Spydergirl88 » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:25 pm

Danke wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:11 pm
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:36 pm
VashHash wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:04 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 2:02 pm
I use my folders unlocked only for light batoning (making kindling from smaller pieces of wood or dry branches)

But looking at your pics this seems to be a viable method in certain scenarios. I´ll have to try this! :)
I have heard about using them unlocked for batoning but never tried it.
It's fun, try it :)
Image
Those are rookie numbers

Image
😂

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VooDooChild
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VooDooChild » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 pm

So I was the one who said not to do it.

Full disclosure I have done it plenty of times.

The whole point was I could not recommend doing it. I wouldnt tell a kid to do it, or a non-knife person to do it.

A locking folder wasnt designed to be used unlocked. Slipjoints and friction folders were, so I dont buy the argument that we have already been doing it when those designs are different.

Once again, people can do whatever they want, but I wont recommend using a locking folder unlocked. Because, People are stupid, and will hurt themselves.

Edit.
Just to make a bad argument.
You can carry a gun with the safety off, it wont go off unless you screw up, but I dont recommend it.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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VooDooChild
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VooDooChild » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:43 pm

I also think the context of how this came up is really important. Someone was asking about the tuff, being halfway open where the curve of the fingerchoil matches the curve of the handle.

In this position the knife, to me anyways, looks like a push dagger. They asked if the knife had a specific use for that position. I said that it doesnt and then made the comment to not use the knife half open. What I should have said was dont use a halfway open unlocked knife as a pushdagger.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Wartstein
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:07 am

Chuck James wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:34 pm
VashHash wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:42 pm
So apparently this is causing ....
Telling me this is a good technique is like pissing down someones back and telling them it's raining.
If you can't look at this technique and see why it's not a good idea, then It can't be explained.
Well, I am sure the OP can defend himself perfectly well if he wants to, but let me say: This is not really a constructive reply.

Obviously this is a technique that works for some, the OPs pics even show that his fingers are not in danger, since he pinch grips the handle so that the fingers are not in the blade path.

I can see how this could be more convenient for example when opening packages and the like, cause the wrist might be in a more natural angle.

Anyway, I think the way you are dismissing techniques and how other people use their folders just cause you personally don't, is not too much different to people saying carrying/using folders is dangerous in general, just cause they don't carry such or are afraid of knives or whatever.
Top three going by pocket-time (update July 21):
- EDC: Stretch 1 in VG10, Tenacious LW in S35VN, Endela SE in VG10.
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales), Salt 2 SE in LC200N

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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby notfixingit » Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 am

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:07 am
Chuck James wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 5:34 pm
VashHash wrote:
Wed Jul 21, 2021 1:42 pm
So apparently this is causing ....
Telling me this is a good technique is like pissing down someones back and telling them it's raining.
If you can't look at this technique and see why it's not a good idea, then It can't be explained.
Well, I am sure the OP can defend himself perfectly well if he wants to, but let me say: This is not really a constructive reply.

Obviously this is a technique that works for some, the OPs pics even show that his fingers are not in danger, since he pinch grips the handle so that the fingers are not in the blade path.

I can see how this could be more convenient for example when opening packages and the like, cause the wrist might be in a more natural angle.

Anyway, I think the way you are dismissing techniques and how other people use their folders just cause you personally don't, is not too much different to people saying carrying/using folders is dangerous in general, just cause they don't carry such or are afraid of knives or whatever.
Ok, so the obvious safety concerns aside (fingers slip, someone bumps you, you choke on a jelly bean while doing this and hand slips, etc etc etc etc). Here are some thoughts..

Someone please correct me if my assumptions are wrong:
1) Knife is not designed to be operated that way
2) The lock tab and the lock bar stabilize the blade, with it not fully open this isn't happening
3) (Top view) When not fully open the compression lock is putting pressure on the blade, pushing it to the right, possibly causing uneven wear on both the pivot, washers, and blade pivot hole. Probably not great on the dent too.
Last edited by notfixingit on Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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PiterM
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby PiterM » Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:17 am

Batoning with an unlocked folder is easy and safe if you don’t go too crazy.

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vivi
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby vivi » Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:08 am

notfixingit wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:24 am

Ok, so the obvious safety concerns aside (fingers slip, someone bumps you, you choke on a jelly bean while doing this and hand slips, etc etc etc etc). Here are some thoughts..

Someone please correct me if my assumptions are wrong:
1) Knife is not designed to be operated that way
2) The lock tab and the lock bar stabilize the blade, with it not fully open this isn't happening
3) (Top view) When not fully open the compression lock is putting pressure on the blade, pushing it to the right, possibly causing uneven wear on both the pivot, washers, and blade pivot hole. Probably not great on the dent too.
you're over thinking it.

cutting a thread or slicing a bit of tape once in a while like this isn't going to ruin a pivot, and using a fully opened knife when someone bumps you can also lead to injury.

if you don't like doing it that's cool, but it's safe and doesn't do anything bad to a pocket knife.

In fact the very first Spyderco, the Worker, was explicitly designed with this use in mind. The sharpened swedge was designed by Sal for this very purpose.

Image

Dismissing this technique as a Spyderco fan is rather ironic.
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VashHash » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:05 am

I'm very open to constructive criticism. It's how we learn. As mentioned using any knife at any time in any situation is a risk. As far as the naysayers go I want to thank you. We need people like you in the knife community. Good shepherds. I know your main concern is safety. Safety for anyone using a knife. We don't want our community to be seen as a reckless group. It makes all knife users look bad. The whole point of this discussion is to educate. If you want to dismiss this technique as unsafe then please disclose why you feel that way. Making derogatory comments without reasoning behind it isn't the way to get your point across.

Someone mentioned a friend having an accident and almost losing a finger. This is a real concern with the technique. This was also an accident that the user wasn't in control of. Not long after the technique was compared to cleaning a loaded gun. This is an example of negligence. You can easily rectify this situation and make it safe. That's the difference between an accident (hard or almost impossible to prevent) and negligence (not taking the time to do something right). I can see how this looks like a negligent technique. I'll break it down in safety speak. While using this technique I'm avoiding line of fire (if the knife closes accidentally my digits are not in the blade path)and avoiding pinch points, (again no digits between the pivot or blade). Some would argue I'm breaking a safety rule by using the wrong tool for the job. That's debatable because we have used knives for millenia.

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tonijedi
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby tonijedi » Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:48 am

Done it several times. Works great and for some applications it's safer.

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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby DSH007 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:44 am

Thinking on it, I can't say it's a method I employ regularly, but this seems no less safe to me for small precise cuts than using a knife "normally." I certainly don't feel uncomfortable using a knife this way when I do. The spyderhole definitely makes it more secure vs. knives with studs..
Rick H.

..well, that escalated quickly..

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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby bearfacedkiller » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:35 pm

I don’t understand why we find using knives so inherently dangerous. I have been carrying one since I was seven years old. Most people open packages with keys, scissors, steak knives and their teeth. A knife geek using a surgically sharp knife partially open with caution seems fine to me. As deep as I am into the knife hobby I am still surprised by the safety police. I do stupid stuff with knives all the time and I can still count to ten. I guess I am just reckless. I admit to being a mild thrill seeker. Motorcycles well into the triple digits makes me smile and I winter camp at temps well below zero. Safety is usually a secondary concern for me as I trust my judgement most of the time. I definitely don’t make a habit of recommending my actions to others though. I also don’t police other people.
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VooDooChild
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:01 pm

I mean where do you draw the line?

I also cant stand "safety police" when it comes down to what I know I can do. I also like motorcycles and outdoor activities that can be dangerous.

However... I will never advocate for improper use of power tools or firearms. But knives are ok?
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Wartstein
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:03 pm

bearfacedkiller wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:35 pm
I don’t understand why we find using knives so inherently dangerous. I have been carrying one since I was seven years old. Most people open packages with keys, scissors, steak knives and their teeth. A knife geek using a surgically sharp knife partially open with caution seems fine to me. As deep as I am into the knife hobby I am still surprised by the safety police. I do stupid stuff with knives all the time and I can still count to ten.....
This reminds me of a thread (actually a poll) I started once about choking up on the very cutting edge of knives. I do this for many years now and quite often. And for me it is perfectly safe (and, as far as I recall the poll, for roughly ten percent of the voters too) and a useful technique.
It's a bit similar to using folders unlocked: This and choking up on the edge might not feel safe for everyone, or even not for most, and that's fine. But it is also perfectly fine if people choose to use their folders in these ways, even more so if they do so without any problems and find it useful. Then for them it just IS safe.
Top three going by pocket-time (update July 21):
- EDC: Stretch 1 in VG10, Tenacious LW in S35VN, Endela SE in VG10.
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales), Salt 2 SE in LC200N

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Wartstein
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:05 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:01 pm
I mean where do you draw the line?

I also cant stand "safety police" when it comes down to what I know I can do. I also like motorcycles and outdoor activities that can be dangerous.

However... I will never advocate for improper use of power tools or firearms. But knives are ok?
How is using a folder unlocked like the OP shows "improper use"? It works and is perfectly safe for him and seems to make performing certain tasks more convenient - ?
Top three going by pocket-time (update July 21):
- EDC: Stretch 1 in VG10, Tenacious LW in S35VN, Endela SE in VG10.
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales), Salt 2 SE in LC200N

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VooDooChild
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:31 pm

Wartstein wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:01 pm
I mean where do you draw the line?

I also cant stand "safety police" when it comes down to what I know I can do. I also like motorcycles and outdoor activities that can be dangerous.

However... I will never advocate for improper use of power tools or firearms. But knives are ok?
How is using a folder unlocked like the OP shows "improper use"? It works and is perfectly safe for him and seems to make performing certain tasks more convenient - ?
Because accidents can happen. Your fingers can slip into the path of that blade that can now close since it is not locked and has almost no tension keeping it in position.

More importantly though is I used the word advocate. I dont really care what people choose to do with their tools. But Im not telling a kid that they will be fine using an unlocked folder. Because that kid will cut themself.

Im obviously not worried about OP or myself or anyone else on this forum. Or frankly anyone with even just a little common sense. But outside of the "accidents happen" argument, there is also the, "there are some really dumb, really clumsy people out there" argument.

I think a lot of you are giving people too much credit. While I hate this, If I am showing anybody how to use a tool, or writing about how to use that tool on the internet, then I am probably catering to the lowest common denominator. (Explaining how to use something in such a manner so that even the very dumb people minimize their risk of injuring themselves.) Im talking about the public not any of you. Everybody knows that one person who can hurt themselves putting on their shoes.

Edit.
Its honestly all a semantics argument.
Because, a tool or knife or firearm or whatever isnt dangerous unless its used improperly.

So it just comes down to the question, Is using a locking folder in an unlocked position improper and/or unsafe?
Last edited by VooDooChild on Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Wartstein
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby Wartstein » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:44 pm

VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:31 pm
Wartstein wrote:
VooDooChild wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:01 pm
....
How is using a folder unlocked like the OP shows "improper use"? It works and is perfectly safe for him and seems to make performing certain tasks more convenient - ?
Because accidents can happen. Your fingers can slip into the path of that blade that can now close since it is not locked and has almost no tension keeping it in position.

More importantly though is I used the word advocate. I dont really care what people choose to do with their tools. But Im not telling a kid that they will be fine using an unlocked folder. Because that kid will cut themself.

Im obviously not worried about OP or myself or anyone else on this forum. Or frankly anyone with even just a little common sense. But outside of the "accidents happen" argument, there is also the, "there are some really dumb, really clumsy people out there" argument.

I think a lot of you are giving people too much credit. While I hate this, If I am showing anybody how to use a tool, or writing about how to use that tool on the internet, then I am probably catering to the lowest common denominator. (Explaining how to use something in such a manner so that even the very dumb people minimize their risk of injuring themselves.) Im talking about the public not any of you. Everybody knows that one person who can hurt themselves putting on their shoes.
I see and respect what you mean, but still disagree:
The OP describes a technique he uses without any issues and asks, who else does so and what people think of it - in a dedicated knife forum. That's not advocating imho, but even part of what this place is here for.

And concerning " accidents can happen": Sure. But the way he uses the knife unlocked makes this rather unlikely. For me pretty much the same as one CAN slip on the blade when using a slick handled Kapara or CAN drop the knife on their foot when operating a comp.lock in the usual way or... like 1000 more examples. If I'd think about what potentially CAN happen I'd never use any tool anymore...
Top three going by pocket-time (update July 21):
- EDC: Stretch 1 in VG10, Tenacious LW in S35VN, Endela SE in VG10.
- Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE in H1, Endura in VG10 (Micarta scales), Salt 2 SE in LC200N

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VooDooChild
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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby VooDooChild » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:51 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:44 pm

I see and respect what you mean, but still disagree:
The OP describes a technique he uses without any issues and asks, who else does so and what people think of it - in a dedicated knife forum. That's not advocating imho, but even part of what this place is here for.

And concerning " accidents can happen": Sure. But the way he uses the knife unlocked makes this rather unlikely. For me pretty much the same as one CAN slip on the blade when using a slick handled Kapara or CAN drop the knife on their foot when operating a comp.lock in the usual way or... like 1000 more examples. If I'd think about what potentially CAN happen I'd never use any tool anymore...
Allright forget the accidents can happen part. Then I have 2 questions.

1. Would you tell a non-knife person they will be fine doing it? I promise you at least one person will screw up.

2. For the semantics. Are locking folders designed to be used in an unlocked position?

Edit.
When it comes down to any tool we can just say this.

Proper use=safe
Improper use=unsafe

So this is the question of the day.
Is that improper use?

Is it improper use by other peoples standards instead of ours?
Last edited by VooDooChild on Thu Jul 22, 2021 5:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

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Re: Using folders unlocked

Postby kodai78 » Thu Jul 22, 2021 4:56 pm

I haven’t used a knife this way, and will not. With the exception of the Assist Rescue in a rescue situation. I strongly prefer locking knives to slip joints because I have cut myself more often with slip joint knives. If I’m in an environment where there are folks uncomfortable with knives I would find an alternative to using a larger folder. You could open boxes with any number of tools not designed to be used for that purpose but why? Anyway I have no problem with anyone else doing it.
:spyder: Shaman REX 45, Smock, Baby Jess Horn CE, Spydiechef, Schempp Bowie,Ti Fluted Military, Titanium Military, Native S30 V and G10, PM 2 in S35VN, and S110V, Manix 2 LW BD1 and SPY 27, Sage 5, Positron black CPM S30V, Chaparral w/Raffir Noble scales, SuperLeaf VG 10, Ladybug H1, Dragonfly 2 in ZDP 189 and Superblue/420J1 and H1, Delica in ZDP 189, Clipitool Standard, the Cook’s knife VG10, Santoku, paring and utility knives, all in MBS 26. :spyder:


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