Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

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Menipo
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Menipo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:16 am

Knife1 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:08 am

I was wondering about the Civilian because it's history says it was developed for use by agents with no training.

Any agent has a basic training. I remember that phrase. It would probably mean that it was designed for agents who weren't specially trained in knife hand-to-hand fighting.

But believe me. I love tinkering with all my Spydies and my knives in general. But the Civilian is one of the few that always stays in the display case.
Si vis pacem para bellum ;)

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Evil D » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:30 am

What's "not ok" in a real life self defense situation? I mean really what would you not use to defend your life? I'll try to beat a guy to death with a banana if that's all I can get my hands on. If you're going to carry a Ladybug with the intention of using it in self defense, you just need to practice with using it under stress and you need to be able to deploy it when you need it, and that may be the major issue with a knife so small. By comparison, I used to use one of those cheap "tap knife" utility knives at a job, the ones that use a standard razor blade that slides open.. I could probably deploy one of those way faster under stress than a Ladybug but that also has a lot to do with using one at work for years so it's about practice and familiarity. I have no doubt that a Ladybug could slash someone enough to kill them if necessary, the question isn't so much about whether the knife is capable as much as it is whether or not YOU are capable of using it.

I like to think I'm fairly well prepared, my biggest concern is with dogs. A couple weeks ago I was charged by a pitt bull and let me tell ya... I froze. If it really did want to attack me, I would have been half way through getting mauled before I even thought to get my knife out. I've been in the same situation many times and it's different when I see the dog coming and can prepare for the attack, have my hand on my knife etc, but this pup came out of nowhere and it really opened my eyes to just how unprepared I was for a real attack. I like to think I'm pretty good about situational awareness but I was lucky this time that the dog was bluffing. He was a big boy too.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby aaronkb » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:37 am

Knife1 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:28 pm
I'll definitely look into the issuance of CCWs right now.
Pepper spray seems like a good option, my concern though is the multiple reports of blowback where the mace ends up disabling the victim rather than the attacker.
Between a Yojimbo and a Civilian, which would be a better choice? Is a Yojimbo more for people trained in edge combat?
If you’re afraid of pepper spray blowing back on you, imagine cutting yourself with your own knife or having it taken away and used against you.

But less drastically, let’s talk about what it would look like for an untrained person to use a knife in self defense.

The first consideration is distance. Absolute best case scenario: someone is far away and you somehow know they’re coming for you (not usually the case), you take it out, manage not to fumble getting it deployed even though your fingers are shaking, they see it and run off.

Or they take out their gun and shoot you.

Now let’s get more realistic: in the majority of cases, you won’t know you need to defend yourself until somebody is within arms reach or has their hands on you.

You try to take the knife from your pocket. You now only have one hand in the fight and your attention is divided while they’re pummeling you with both hands. Or stabbing you with their own knife. Even an experienced practitioner would likely choose not to reach for their knife and instead use empty hand technique to create distance.

Let’s say you manage to get it out of your pocket... honestly not likely mid-attack. Now you’re trying to get a decent grip on it and open it, WHILE SOMEONE IS ACTIVELY ATTACKING YOU. Maybe with their fists, maybe with a weapon. Good luck.

If your end-goal is to get killed and look like an idiot on the news, buy a knife for self defense. I guess a big one because the only scenario in which it will possibly be useful is as a deterrent.

Or do the smart thing and invest some time and energy into serious self-defense training with a competent instructor.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Naperville » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:12 am

Menipo wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:09 am
Naperville wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:12 pm
jdw wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:44 pm
Really folks, carry a gun. If you are actively going to a place where you are actually threatened, then know your legal requirements and carry a firearm.
THIS IS 100% TRUE!

*EDITED - Inaccurate and inappropriate for our forum* - TazKristi

GET A GUN and a CCW.

A license to carry weapons does not give you the right to use them at your will without consequences. Only Bond (James Bond) had a license to kill. ;)

Carrying a weapon without perfectly knowing how and when to use it can be counterproductive. The false security that it gives can lead to a decrease in the level of precaution that someone unarmed has (and that allows him to avoid dangerous situations) and to increase the risk of disaster: because it is misused and ends up injuring oneself or because it is misused and ends up causing unnecessary death or injury costing your own ruin (in financial and moral terms).
True, but I rarely see anyone with a CCW get arrested for shooting someone. It is rare here in Illinois.

I'd much rather have a CCW. If it's not a license to kill, it's the closest thing to one.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:12 am

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 3:22 pm
Another thing to keep in mind is that homeless people often wear multiple layers of clothing even in the summer... A knife will get caught up in that. It's not worth it to engage. Run away.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Doc Dan » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:16 am

The most useful martial art that I've seen is martial Judo (not really the olympic stuff, though that is okay). I do not want to get on the ground with the guy and I may not be able to kick him or punch him hard enough to hurt him through layers of clothing or the fog of drugs. However, if he lands hard enough from a throw it will knock the wind out of him at the very least, giving you time to get away. It could break bones. Either way, you get away from him.

As for a knife, well, even a guy with a Delica is dangerous if scared enough and it is easy to carry and legal in most places. I do not know what the blade length laws are out there.
I Pray Heaven to Bestow The Best of Blessing on THIS HOUSE, and on ALL that shall hereafter Inhabit it. May none but Honest and Wise Men ever rule under This Roof! (John Adams regarding the White House)

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Menipo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:06 am

Naperville wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:12 am
Menipo wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:09 am
Naperville wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:12 pm
jdw wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:44 pm
Really folks, carry a gun. If you are actively going to a place where you are actually threatened, then know your legal requirements and carry a firearm.
THIS IS 100% TRUE!

*EDITED - Inaccurate and inappropriate for our forum* - TazKristi

GET A GUN and a CCW.

A license to carry weapons does not give you the right to use them at your will without consequences. Only Bond (James Bond) had a license to kill. ;)

Carrying a weapon without perfectly knowing how and when to use it can be counterproductive. The false security that it gives can lead to a decrease in the level of precaution that someone unarmed has (and that allows him to avoid dangerous situations) and to increase the risk of disaster: because it is misused and ends up injuring oneself or because it is misused and ends up causing unnecessary death or injury costing your own ruin (in financial and moral terms).
True, but I rarely see anyone with a CCW get arrested for shooting someone. It is rare here in Illinois.

I'd much rather have a CCW. If it's not a license to kill, it's the closest thing to one.

I think you confuse cause and effect.

If people with a CCW are rarely charged after a shooting, that doesn't mean that a CCW is a license to kill. Just the opposite. This shows that in most cases the titleholder of a CCW knows when to use his weapon (and when not) and uses it correctly. This shows also that CCWs are only given to people who can carry a gun without being a danger to other members of the community and that the system works properly in Illinois (so a CCW is not given to those who consider it a license to kill) :D .
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:11 pm

Knife1 wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:08 am

I was wondering about the Civilian because it's history says it was developed for use by agents with no training.
Im not sure about the Civilian but in particular its direct descendant the Matriarch was designed for people with no training to be able to defend themselves. I'd pay attention to the blade length laws in your jurisdiction though.

The Yojimbo is designed for people with training but, I dont see why you couldn't use it. The basic principle is it's a hollow ground wharncliffe with a spot for you to put your thumb on the spine of the knife, allowing for deep cutting.

Don't let people tell you how to live your life or defend it. Make up your own mind. Everyone's got an opinion.

Here's my opinion, people don't have a 'license to kill'. But you do have a legal, god given, and 'natural' right to self defense.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:35 pm

Knife1 wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:49 pm
.......realistically speaking would something like a ladybug, pochi, or cricket be useful?.....
I still recommend a purpose built self defense knife. But hypothetically if you had to use a properly sharpened ZDP-189 Manbug with a thick lanyard/fob for better grip, and wondered what kind cutting power you could get from a single slash....
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Jared » Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:47 pm

I’d recommend getting some training in use of pepper spray and some training in grappling. Also, look into getting training, or even watching some videos, on how to interact safely with strangers that approach you.

Have a “tape loop” in your head of prepracticed responses to the type of questions that people may use to try to get close to you.

Here’s an example: I had a rough looking character approach me one time asking for directions. He wanted to know where such and such a place was. I kept my eyes on him and said, “I really don’t know, but you may ask that cop over there, he probably does.” Suddenly the dude decided he had some place else to be.... There was no “cop over there” but it faked the guy out enough that it seems to have disrupted whatever he was planning.

Another one I had to do one time: a homeless dude got the drop on me while I was buckling my daughter in her car seat. He asked for a couple dollars to get a meal at the McDonalds. He looked old and legitimately homeless, but I **** sure wanted him away from my kid. So I told him I would help him but I wanted him to go stand on the curb over there while I buckled my kid in. This was a compliance test for me. If he backed away I knew he wasn’t a threat. If he’d refused, I would have had to step up to a stronger command to step back. Anyway, he went to the curb and sat down. I got my kid buckled in and locked the car. Gave the dude $5 and all was well.

In both of these cases I had a pistol on me. In neither case did I come close to using it. Sometimes having a verbal action plan beats having lethal force. I also had pepper spray on me both times. The dude that surprised me when I was with my kid, when I asked him to go to the curb, if he’d tried to get any closer, I would have sprayed him. He was well within the 6 foot radius I like to keep people out of when I encounter strangers and I’m with my daughter. That one was an absolute failure on my part to be aware of my surroundings but I was trying to manage a kid and he was on a bicycle.

Edited to add: I do sometimes leave my home without a pistol. I never leave my home without pepper spray. When it comes to defending use of force, it’s a whole lot easier to defend spray than it is a bullet. I fully believe in the second amendment and the right of a citizen to defend themselves. I’m also a realist that recognizes that lethal force is an absolute last ditch option and it’s one I personally will not go to unless I’ve exhausted every option before that.

I consider this too: if I end up in prison after a defensive shooting, I still lost. Even if acquitted, it’ll be financially ruinous. That’s not good for me or my family.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby der_boudie » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:59 pm

Happened to be watching youtube yesterday and came across this video called "Kahr Syderco Delica 4 vs PORKMAN". It features Micheal Janich demonstrating what it is capable of. But, like most here, I'd advocate avoiding a confrontational situation if at all possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgTV8KKNQ3w

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Naperville » Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:01 pm

If you are interested in using a knife for self defense, you may want to look at one of the threads I started where I compiled some info on training DVDs. It is not up to date but covers a lot of ground.

Be wary of taking advice from people who have not studied the martial arts of escrima, arnis, or kalis, or have used a knife in self defense. There is a lot to speculate on but first hand experience is important.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=84649
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby TomH » Mon Apr 19, 2021 1:40 am

Former Green Beret James Morgan Ayres used to teach self-defense classes to women. His recommended knife was the Cricket. Details can be found in his interesting book, The Tactical Knife.

KaliGman, who used to post here often, still has a YouTube video up on using a small knife. In the video he uses the Spyderco Ed Schempp Balance.


I am not saying yes or no to your question, that is for you to decide.
That being said, having faced folks holding small blades a couple of times, I can say that even facing a small blade perked me up.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Menipo » Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:51 am

der_boudie wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:59 pm
Happened to be watching youtube yesterday and came across this video called "Kahr Syderco Delica 4 vs PORKMAN". It features Micheal Janich demonstrating what it is capable of. But, like most here, I'd advocate avoiding a confrontational situation if at all possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgTV8KKNQ3w

I would better say " ... demonstrating what HE is capable of" because I'm convinced that Mr. Janich would get the same result even using a lollipop :D
Si vis pacem para bellum ;)

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby Evil D » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:21 am

We need a Ladybug with a clip and wave hook. Then tie a nice lanyard fob on it with a little monkey's fist at the end to add some grip and you've got a micro self defense knife you can easily draw and not have to fumble around with trying to open.


Until then I'd recommend the waved Dragonfly for the same effect.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby twinboysdad » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:22 am

Get an unbreakable umbrella (it’s a real thing) or carry a tennis racket in a case. A steel water bottle is usually with me. I think blunt impact works better than slashing with a small knife. A tennis racket to the knee cap or shin? Most could outrun after that. You need a tool that offers reach.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby twinboysdad » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:34 am

Also don’t discount a decent small bright tac flashlight. Anyone who has been flashed in the eyes on a bright setting will attest- your vision is temporarily compromised. No one gets harmed and you now have seen their hands and any accomplices you may have missed, along with buying yourself a solid 20 second head start outta there

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby JRinFL » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:48 am

I love posts like this because it always brings out the same crowd. The young and healthy always yell "runaway" or "get martial arts training" because they assume they will always be young and healthy. Guess what kids, you WILL get old, you WILL get infirm at some point.
So what can you do if you cannot carry a gun, cannot run, or stand toe to toe? You will have to practice avoidance. In some areas that will greatly limit your life, sorry.
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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby dd61999 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:19 am

I’ll go against popular opinion on here

I practice various forms of martial arts....and yes a small knife CAN be very effective if you know how to use it

Matter of fact, when my kids went to college, they were not allowed guns on campus. So both of them learned MBC. They both carry pepper spray for non lethal and a 2.5 inch blade for last ditch situations. My one son is is a multiple county and state wrestling champ and my daughter only took basic MBC courses. I’m confident in both of them even though their skill levels are wide apart.

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Re: Small Folders Okay Gor Self Defense?

Postby James Y » Mon Apr 19, 2021 10:44 am

JRinFL wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:48 am
I love posts like this because it always brings out the same crowd. The young and healthy always yell "runaway" or "get martial arts training" because they assume they will always be young and healthy. Guess what kids, you WILL get old, you WILL get infirm at some point.
So what can you do if you cannot carry a gun, cannot run, or stand toe to toe? You will have to practice avoidance. In some areas that will greatly limit your life, sorry.

^^This.

I’ll also add that you don’t have to be old or infirm to be unable to run away. You could be young (or relatively young) and be out of shape, or have some type of injury that interferes with your ability to run. Or you’re with a significant other, kids or another family member(s) who can’t run fast enough. And like I mentioned earlier in the thread, some criminals (such as some young gang members) are in good shape, and can most likely outrun your “average American” enough to chase them down, even average Americans who are regular runners or joggers (which most are not, anyway). Also, what if the targeted victim is in dress shoes/office clothing and the criminal is in loose-fit pants and athletic shoes? And if there is more than one such pursuer, even if you can run, you’re in deep doo-doo.

As far as small/short knives for SD, throughout many decades, many street people have used common, sliding-blade utility knives, like Stanley knives, as weapons. Fully extended, those blades are usually about 1.5” or so. They are common street weapons because they are easy to obtain, are cheap, and can be ditched easily. They also have hand-filling handles for such short blades.

Jim


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