MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

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Bolster
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#61

Post by Bolster »

chkn wrote:
Mon Feb 13, 2023 4:49 pm
...I suppose you could argue that it is it's own thing, but more than likely most people will be getting one in order to compare to their other Mules. ...

I suspect the main reason people will buy the straight spine mule is that they want to make their own knife, not that they want to get into comparative steel testing. The S.S. mule is to always be in stock for whenever you get the urge to put handles on a fine slab of PM steel and call it uniquely yours. I have loads of mules (even the standard run SPY27 mule) and I still bought a S.S. mule because it's a safe blank on which to test and modify my own designs. If I screw up, I can get another for a modest layout.

I think Spyderco noticed a lot of people were enjoying the process of customizing a knife, rather than engaging in rigorous testing, so decided to fill that vacant spot in the marketplace. I'm guessing that if Spyderco had continued to produce the leaf-bladed SPY27 mule, you'd have had upset collectors complaining.

I'm liking the 'difference' of the S. S. mule...the subtle change to the spine makes a big difference at the tip. It's a real cat's claw, and can start cuts in tiny places.

If Spyderco continues to pursue the "I want to customize my own fixed blade" market, I wonder if they'd ever consider a wharncliffe or sheepfoot design.
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chkn
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#62

Post by chkn »

Bolster wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 7:24 pm
I suspect the main reason people will buy the straight spine mule is that they want to make their own knife
Which makes me curious if they'd prefer the straight spine version to the original pattern or vice versa.
I have loads of mules (even the standard run SPY27 mule) and I still bought a S.S. mule because it's a safe blank on which to test and modify my own designs. If I screw up, I can get another for a modest layout.
So what do you say to people who may have been looking forward to doing that with the original pattern and don't like the straight spine?
I'm guessing that if Spyderco had continued to produce the leaf-bladed SPY27 mule, you'd have had upset collectors complaining.
So don't make the production mule in Spy27. Or If the idea was to always have it in SPY27 don't make it a limited/sprint from the get-go or let people know it won't be as such on release.
I'm liking the 'difference' of the S. S. mule...the subtle change to the spine makes a big difference at the tip. It's a real cat's claw, and can start cuts in tiny places.
Thing is anyone could make any original pattern mule into a straight spine one. You can't turn the straight spine mule into the original leaf blade mule with the same dimensions with just some grinding.
If Spyderco continues to pursue the "I want to customize my own fixed blade" market, I wonder if they'd ever consider a wharncliffe or sheepfoot design.
Now that would make more sense to me.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#63

Post by standy99 »

chkn wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 2:29 pm
TomAiello wrote:
Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:07 am
I see this as a public service to the hobby knife making community from Spyderco.
I'd argue if that was the case then keeping the original shape would make more sense, since if people preferred the straight spine they could grind/shave it down. As it stands the production mule forces you to accept a blade profile that none of the previous mules have had. Did people ask for a different blade profile? I never saw it. As it stands the production mule is the only one that unmistakably differs from all other previous mules released which arguably defeats the purpose of a MT knife being much more readily available if the buyer wanted a "standard" mule.
The problem with keeping the same shape was not to go away from the limited release of the SPY27 mule that was already made and sold out.
Mules have always been limited numbers like a sprint.

The whole idea of this was to have a mule that was available the whole time. For the people that want to make mules for the friends and family without loosing the limited mules they have bought.

Because mules 99% of the time mules sell out there is times that there is no mule available. In the case of Magnacut it was unavailable after a few hours.

This is basically like a mule for the makers. The mule handle makers and even the small businesses that make handles on Instagram will benefit from this. Which means new mule buyers will benefit.

Also as Sal said if he was going to make a regular production it was going to be a little bit different and a Spyderco steel which SPY27 is.

For me I will keep collecting standard Mules for myself for testing and comparing. But know I can make a few for friends whilst not loosing the limited steel ones I wish to keep.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#64

Post by Bolster »

Some good points, you make. I only have a smart-arse response to one:

chkn wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:23 pm
I have loads of mules (even the standard run SPY27 mule) and I still bought a S.S. mule because it's a safe blank on which to test and modify my own designs. If I screw up, I can get another for a modest layout.
So what do you say to people who may have been looking forward to doing that with the original pattern and don't like the straight spine?

I would say to them: Don't screw up.

(Ba-dump bump, symbol crash.)

Regards making a straight spine mule out of the standard model, that would be beyond my ability with my (non water cooled) belt grinder; as cool as my low-speed belt grinder runs, I don't think I could keep the tip cool enough. I think I'd ruin the temper at the tip; it's really easy to overheat such a fine point. Maybe it could be done with a coolant-plumbed surface grinder? That's probably beyond the capacity of 99% of home shops.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#65

Post by chkn »

standy99 wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 10:14 pm
*snip*
Pretty much everything you mentioned was addressed in my post responding to Bolster just before yours, so it'd be kind of silly to repost it all.
Bolster wrote: Regards making a straight spine mule out of the standard model, that would be beyond my ability with my (non water cooled) belt grinder; as cool as my low-speed belt grinder runs, I don't think I could keep the tip cool enough. I think I'd ruin the temper at the tip; it's really easy to overheat such a fine point. Maybe it could be done with a coolant-plumbed surface grinder? That's probably beyond the capacity of 99% of home shops.
I'd be more sympathetic if I had seen an outpouring of requests for a straight spine mule, but AFAIK it was something that had been decided based only on releasing a SPY27 Mule that wasn't the same. Like I mentioned before, I would have preferred the production mule in the standard shape in a different steel or they could have just gave people the heads up that the first release wouldn't be a limited/sprint run. I can't imagine a greater majority of buyers being dissuaded by the latter.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#66

Post by standy99 »

It’s basically doing what most of us asked for and Sal agreeing and putting he’s spin on it..

Came out trumps in my book.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#67

Post by Ramonade »

standy99 wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:25 am
It’s basically doing what most of us asked for and Sal agreeing and putting he’s spin on it..

Came out trumps in my book.
My thought exactly, any standard production Mule is a good Mule in my books !
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#68

Post by ykspydiefan »

A standard production Mule is a good thing from where I am sitting. I snapped up a Spy 27 Para 3 when they first dropped, so I have had a good run with this steel. It will be difficult for me to buy this Mule vs waiting for the next Mule to come and it makes the waiting a little easier knowing the MT28P2 won't fit the regular kydex sheath. I'm still super excited for this to happen.

In my mind, it makes complete sense to use the house steel(Spy27) in a regular production Mule. It also makes sense to change the shape and respect the value of the initial release MT28 and the time and effort that people go through to acquire any Mule.

Sure, $40 for a different shaped kydex sheath is a bummer.

But, the silver lining... A Mule has been re-released. Perhaps with some consensus and several years of campaigning, another Mule will be re-released. ;)
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#69

Post by chkn »

standy99 wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:25 am
It’s basically doing what most of us asked for
I'd agree with this if I saw people asking for a straight spine, or for one in SPY27 regardless of the shape that also required a different sheath.
ykspydiefan wrote: In my mind, it makes complete sense to use the house steel(Spy27) in a regular production Mule.
I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is having the production mule being the only one different in shape from every other mule, so much so that I would have preferred the production mule be in any other steel if that's what it would have taken for it to be the same shape.
It also makes sense to change the shape and respect the value of the initial release MT28 and the time and effort that people go through to acquire any Mule.
They could have changed the steel instead then, like I have mentioned in this and several posts before.
But, the silver lining... A Mule has been re-released.
The point of the shape change was so that it wasn't a "re-release", like you explained above. It became it's own thing.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#70

Post by ykspydiefan »

chkn wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 10:32 am
standy99 wrote:
Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:25 am
It’s basically doing what most of us asked for
I'd agree with this if I saw people asking for a straight spine, or for one in SPY27 regardless of the shape that also required a different sheath.
ykspydiefan wrote: In my mind, it makes complete sense to use the house steel(Spy27) in a regular production Mule.
I don't mind that at all. What I do mind is having the production mule being the only one different in shape from every other mule, so much so that I would have preferred the production mule be in any other steel if that's what it would have taken for it to be the same shape.
It also makes sense to change the shape and respect the value of the initial release MT28 and the time and effort that people go through to acquire any Mule.
They could have changed the steel instead then, like I have mentioned in this and several posts before.
But, the silver lining... A Mule has been re-released.
The point of the shape change was so that it wasn't a "re-release", like you explained above. It became it's own thing.

Well, we can agree that MT28P2 exists. And, it enables the ELU to access the Mule Team without the stress of timing a drop.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#71

Post by sal »

We had to make the knife different from the regular Mules. Modifying the spine was the easiest mod that would keep the performance the same. The fact that it needs a different Kydex (Boltaron) sheath is a drag, which we didn't realize at the time. The Mule 2 fits the leather sheath fine. I'm sorry for your disappointment.

Sometimes, trying to please everyone seems like an impossibility?

sal
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#72

Post by chkn »

ykspydiefan wrote:
Tue Feb 21, 2023 11:27 am
Well, we can agree that MT28P2 exists. And, it enables the ELU to access the Mule Team without the stress of timing a drop.
Sure, but at the same time there are probably people who looked at the original mule shape, thought "I'd like to be able to get one without having to schedule a day off" and saw the production mule as their opportunity but aren't enamored with the change in profile. They could get the M398 one right now, but in the future those who want the original shape will probably have to deal with the stress of timing a drop.
sal wrote: We had to make the knife different from the regular Mules. Modifying the spine was the easiest mod that would keep the performance the same. The fact that it needs a different Kydex (Boltaron) sheath is a drag, which we didn't realize at the time. The Mule 2 fits the leather sheath fine. I'm sorry for your disappointment.

Sometimes, trying to please everyone seems like an impossibility?
I don't expect to be satisfied with everything Spyderco does, nor should anyone else expect you guys to do so for them, I'm just expressing my opinion as to what could have been some sensible changes so that the production mule didn't have to be a different shape. I am unsure what the reason may be (outside of not wanting to do a straight up re-release of the SPY27 mule, I understand that), but if you say the shape change was a necessity then I'll accept that at face value.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#73

Post by sal »

Hi Chkn,

I created the Mule Team project to provide a way for knife afi's interested in blade steels to be ale to test and compare different blade steels, first hand, on their own. It was a challenging project to bring to the market. I work with a number of foundries to be able to bring these blade steels to you. For many years, it was small numbers and a few interested folks that participated. We actually disbanded the project for a while due to declining interest. We brought it back due to requests here to do so. Kristi and our staff worked hard for many hours to bring the entire collection of posts to a sub-forum. The high demand and early sell-outs is a recent phenomena, which is why we increased the numbers made. From the time I request a blade steel from a foundry, usually based on their chemistry or requests from folks here is generally 2-3 years before we can deliver a Mule.

We sold the Mules consumer direct with no handles or sheath to keep the price affordable. The idea that it would become a "kit knife" was a new development. When our Mule Team folks asked for a "standard" mule for basic comparisons to be readily available, that would also be a kit knife, I made the decision to create the model and I selected the steel. I also made the decision that it would have to be easily identified as other than a Mule team for which the project requires. The "Standard" Mule would have to have the same grinds, edges, handle and basic shape as our regular Mule Team project pieces. In my mind, the area least affecting the performance of the model was the spine, which is what I changed.

While you may think there were other ways that I could have made it different, that in your mind would have been "better" than the way that I chose, is your opinion. The sheath difference, while unplanned, is in my opinion, a small inconvenience for being able to get the "Standard" piece in a proprietary steel, which was no easy task, considering all of the other things that Spyderco does.

The Mule Team project in general, and the Mule 2 in particular, is a gift from me to you. Your kind understanding is appreciated.

sal
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#74

Post by chkn »

sal wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2023 2:36 am

While you may think there were other ways that I could have made it different, that in your mind would have been "better" than the way that I chose, is your opinion.
That's not exactly how I feel about it. I've been following and participating in the mule team since its inception. If you go back and look at my posts you'll see a pic of the S90V and M4 mules that I had picked up as they released. After about 15 years of doing so there's only one decision I didn't agree with which is the production mule. You have your reasons and I can do nothing but accept that, I've never tried to frame my discussion here as anything but opinion.
The Mule Team project in general, and the Mule 2 in particular, is a gift from me to you.
No need to browbeat me over that fact, I was willing to drop the discussion after clarifying that I conceded the point and you don't need to change or further explain anything because that is indeed your prerogative.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#75

Post by sal »

Hi Chkn,

Sorry if i got a different impression. My bad. Apologies.

sal
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#76

Post by sal »

OK, now I'm questioning myself. I try to be a good listener.

Now with the response to the "Standard" Mule team being mixed. I'd like to delve more into this. (Mostly Chkn's fault). Would someone please make up a poll.

Keep the Standard Mule as it is with the straight spine and the new sheath.
Make the pattern of the standard Mule to be more like the regular Mule with the same sheath.

And then I'd like comment as to what change would work for you. After all, we are doing the whole Mule project to try to please the Steel Junky's, which is you.

sal
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#77

Post by Bolster »

I'll make a poll for you Sal. Is this what you're looking for?

Which do you prefer, regards the SPY27 “Standard Mule” that Spyderco intends to keep in stock:

() Keep the SPY27 Standard Mule as is, with straight spine (and the new sheath that fits it).

() Change the pattern of the Standard Mule to be more similar to all the other mules (and use the same sheath as the other mules.)


If I use the built-in poll, comments would just need to be in the thread following. If I use SurveyMonkey, the comments would be captured in the poll itself, and you can get the results in a spreadsheet. Your choice. I'll check back in an hour or so.
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#78

Post by sal »

Hi Bolster,

Thanx. I don't mind keeping it public to the forum.

sal
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#79

Post by Bolster »

Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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Re: MT28P2 - CPM SPY27 Mule Team Release!

#80

Post by standy99 »

Great to have the choice of the two designs.

Already have someone that wants the new design with a handle made for them. They thought the standard mule blade was too thick for their purpose.
Im a vegetarian as technically cows are made of grass and water.
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