Tungsten Carbide Mule

[KnifeKnuts]

I'd sure like to see a tungsten carbide Mule Team blade offering. Would this be feasible?

[crazywednesday]

I'm guessing this is cost prohibitive. The tooling would be ridiculous.

[RustyIron]

What desirable qualities would a tungsten carbide blade possess?

My experience is with tungsten carbide metal cutting tools. There is nothing about any of my metal cutting tools that makes me want them on a knife. Carbide tooling is delicate. If you bump it, you'll chip it. Sharpening is a chore. You can't put an acute edge on it. Maybe there are other recipes for tungsten carbide that would make it suitable for a knife blade. As with any kind of metal, I'm curious. What's available that would even work in a knife?

[KnifeKnuts]

Edge holding ability is the main draw to this material. Corrosion resistance is also a big plus. Be sure to click on the FAQ tab to find answers to most questions about Polyhedral Tungsten Carbide (PTC).
https://usa.sandrinknives.com/

"Polyhedral Tungsten Carbide (PTC) was invented by Sandrin founder, Alessandro Colombatto and his team. A second-generation tungsten carbide artisan, Alessandro and his parent company, Turmond, have been pushing the Tungsten Carbide industry boundaries for four decades. An established leader in tungsten carbide blades used for high-speed cutting applications, Alessandro has developed industrial cutting solutions for 21 different industries.

PTC is composed of tungsten carbide and cobalt along with binder elements that have been used for decades in a variety of industrial applications, for example, crafting superior steel-cutting tools. However, traditional grades of tungsten carbide are brittle, so creating a durable knife blade from this material was previously thought to be impossible. Sandrin’s patented flexible PTC has solved this problem. In fact, our blades are so hard you can use the back edge of a Sandrin to sharpen traditional steel knives."

[CrustyOtter]

What desirable qualities would a tungsten carbide blade possess?

My experience is with tungsten carbide metal cutting tools. There is nothing about any of my metal cutting tools that makes me want them on a knife. Carbide tooling is delicate. If you bump it, you'll chip it. Sharpening is a chore. You can't put an acute edge on it. Maybe there are other recipes for tungsten carbide that would make it suitable for a knife blade. As with any kind of metal, I'm curious. What's available that would even work in a knife?

Many years ago, I worked in a Tungsten Carbide Preform shop. We milled our own powder, pressed into ingots and billets, machined it pre-sintered, sintered the parts and everything else that got it ready for final shaping by our customers, who in turn sold to their customers - the end users. We primarily produced can tooling: dies, punches, EDM blocks and such but also undustrial blades used in chopping, slitting and cutting materials on assembly lines. We even made some huge non magnetic parts for one of the major Japanese companies that made everything from electronics to... knife steel.

There were more variables in the types of powder we produced than I can remember but we produced various sub micron, micron level, coarse grain and non magnetic powders in both cobalt and nickle formulas, all depending on the intended application. Tungsten carbide can be formulated to fill whatever application is needed, including blades. It's a matter of balancing extreme wear resistance, extreme impact resistance and the machining difficulties and costs. It can only be machined with diamond tooling, even in its pre-sintered state. When I left that job in 1996, we charged $35 per gram of material and $1.95 per minute of labor. I can't imagine the production costs now - or the unbelievable hassle of trying to sharpen a tungsten knife blade at home.

[Bolster]

We even made some huge non magnetic parts for one of the major Japanese companies that made everything from electronics to... knife steel.

Interesting. Thanks for the knowledgeable insights into tungsten carbide.

[Senfkarte]

Sharpening seems to be not that bad and the price isn't that bad either, accordingly to this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=88832

I mean, it's not cheap but also not stupid expensive.

[CrustyOtter]

Sharpening seems to be not that bad and the price isn't that bad either, accordingly to this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=88832

I mean, it's not cheap but also not stupid expensive.

Haven't read that entire thread but I'm honestly surprised. Several thousand for a fixed blade is what I'd expect but $300 for a folder is really impressive. The ability to sharpen and hone with diamond lapping film is something I never would've expected was possible.

From what I recall from my experience making industrial parts, most of our can tooling parts were sub micron, cobalt powder. Can tooling punches (roughly 12" - 14" long and 2½" - 3" Ø) were nickle binder. Our industrial blades were generally 18" - 25-ish", 1½" or so wide and ¼" to ⅜" thick. These were mostly coarse grain powder and/or nickle binder material. I assume the coarse grain gave the carbide its impact resistance, never considered the nickle binder might offer corrosion resistance as well. I DO know that the nickle bound powders were much lighter: any time I had to machine it on the lathe, I could literally taste it.

When they closed our plant and moved the operation to PA near our parent company, our biggest can tooling customers had started switching over from tungsten to ceramic parts. The ceramic technology and possibilities are what really intrigue me from a machining/Engineering/knife geek standpoint.

[Josh Crutchley]

The Sandrin Torino looks awesome but it happens to be out of my price range. I would however be interested in a reasonably priced tungsten carbide mule. Not really sure I would like how the edge behaves but I won't know if I never try.

Haven't read that entire thread but I'm honestly surprised. Several thousand for a fixed blade is what I'd expect but $300 for a folder is really impressive. The ability to sharpen and hone with diamond lapping film is something I never would've expected was possible.

From what I recall from my experience making industrial parts, most of our can tooling parts were sub micron, cobalt powder. Can tooling punches (roughly 12" - 14" long and 2½" - 3" Ø) were nickle binder. Our industrial blades were generally 18" - 25-ish", 1½" or so wide and ¼" to ⅜" thick. These were mostly coarse grain powder and/or nickle binder material. I assume the coarse grain gave the carbide its impact resistance, never considered the nickle binder might offer corrosion resistance as well. I DO know that the nickle bound powders were much lighter: any time I had to machine it on the lathe, I could literally taste it.

When they closed our plant and moved the operation to PA near our parent company, our biggest can tooling customers had started switching over from tungsten to ceramic parts. The ceramic technology and possibilities are what really intrigue me from a machining/Engineering/knife geek standpoint.

Larrin wrote a great article about Sandrin carbide you should check out. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/11/18/ ... hat-is-it/

[CrustyOtter]

The Sandrin Torino looks awesome but it happens to be out of my price range. I would however be interested in a reasonably priced tungsten carbide mule. Not really sure I would like how the edge behaves but I won't know if I never try.

snip

Larrin wrote a great article about Sandrin carbide you should check out. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/11/18/ ... hat-is-it/

I bookmarked that link, thanks for that. I'll have to make some time to read it when I can really focus on its meaning (and sound out the big words ). I have a great deal of respect for Dr. Thomas, as I'm sure we all do. His contributions and willingness to share his knowledge openly with the knife community are a huge asset for us all.

[sal]

Hey Otter,

Thanx for sharing your experience.

sal

[KnifeKnuts]

Thanks everyone for your interesting comments about the feasibility of a tungsten carbide mule team blade. I've learned a lot since my original post. The more I learned, the more I became convinced that tungsten carbide needs to be offered as another Spyderco Mule Team blade. If the resulting Mule Team testing proves positive, this material could possibly revolutionize knife making, as we know it. Let's put it to the test.

[KnifeKnuts]

I just placed an order for the Sandrin Torino Tungsten Carbide (PTC) EDC folder. I will share my findings after I've had a chance to play with it.

[KnifeKnuts]

Taken from my new Sandrin Knives Authenticity Card:

"To the owner of this Sandrin Knife
As a 2nd generation artisan dedicated to the craft of engineering tungsten carbide,
I personally thank you for selecting our knife. We strive to "exceed carbide technology"
and push the limits of this remarkable material. Every day we produce some of the most
precise tungsten carbide components created by man. Our company - Turmond s.p.a. -
works in the shadows, across industries, providing material for many products that
affect your life. Sandrin Knives are finished with precision and expertise derived from
generations of carbide grinding and infused with the knowledge, experience, and
passion passed along by my father. Neither steel nor ceramic, these knives are crafted
with extraordinary precision. Sandrin knives feature an outstanding hardness of HRC 71
and, simply put, they are the hardest, most durable knife blades ever made.

Sincerely,
Alessandro Colombatto
Sandrin Knives - Val della Torre, Italy"

[KnifeKnuts]

After having had my Sandrin Torino knife for a while now, I just can't bring myself to performing any endurance testing on it. This knife is too nice and too valuable to me to take a chance of damaging it in order to find any inherent weakness or 'breaking point' to share with the forum. This is a very nice high-quality precision folding knife that warrants care and attention, not to suggest that its delicate. I'm satisfied to rely on the outstanding testing information gained from the other previous posts. This knife was delivered shaving sharp, right out of the box, and with proper care, it may never need resharpening. I'll wait for a tungsten carbide mule team blade for testing of this material.