Let's talk Drilling.

A place to share your experience with our Mule Team knives.
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Bolster
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#21

Post by Bolster »

RustyIron wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 1:09 pm
The first video is Mrs. Iron and me introducing our dog to an 1890 dog power from the Vermont Farm Equipment Company. Back in the 1890's, all members of the family needed to earn their keep. Dogs and goats could be used for small tasks like churning butter, washing clothes, or pumping water...

DOG POWER! Love it!! I'm converting all my toolage to dog power, as we speak. Though it does appear that dog power does require a lot of snackage, to get it to work.

Rusty, I'm going to send you a photo by PM of a line shaft lathe that my grandfather bequeathed me. I'm not sure what to do with it, or what CAN be done with it. PM, so as not to derail this thread further!

Back to drilling, you...drillers!
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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Bolster
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#22

Post by Bolster »

standy99 wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:11 pm
Have we gone over it was a Australian that invented the electric drill

I think it's widely acknowledged that Aussies have led the world in hole-making ever since...
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#23

Post by ykspydiefan »

Ha, I like Aussie jokes, funny stuff.

I am very much a beginner and trying to focus on budget for more blades and using the tools I have. Hand drill and clamps.

I clamp one scale and a backing board to the handle, and drill through the handle and scale. I unclamp, and re-clamp with the other scale and backing board on the other side. I put wood dowels in the holes to keep the first scale and handle lined up while re-clamping. Then, I remove dowels, and drill through the first scale, and handle to drill out the second scale.

I have done 2 Mules like this and one other blade. The best thing about this style is its' budget friendly nature. Also, I am using scrap wood and inexpensive materials. I hope to better my skills with practice then move to more expensive materials when I have more confidence that I won't destroy them.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#24

Post by ChrisinHove »

Great thread & great advice!

My old man is a long retired apprenticed toolmaker & marine engineer, & sold off his lathe & milling machines when his eyesight failed. I miss his workshop, which was still kitted out with some of his fathers machinery.

I come across fewer and fewer home workshops nowadays - the most recent memorable one had a full cnc set up as well as the standard kit. The guy was building steam engines from scratch…

Another memorable one was a tiny wooden garden shed, set up with a maze of overhead drive shafts and belts feeding all sorts of model making equipment - that was a house in a town built up around the railway engineering works where there would have been a lot of talent, once.
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RustyIron
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#25

Post by RustyIron »

Xplorer wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 3:16 pm
OK back to drilling...these old square shank wood boring bits from grandpa's shop are nothing like what we have available today and yet somehow people were building some really good, high quality products with tools like these.
Neat stuff. I was in my 40's and pretty well set up when my grandfather told me to come and clean out his garage. You can't take the contents of a full garage and fit it into another full garage without disrupting the rules of quantum mechanics, so I ended up having to let a lot of his tools go. The one thing I kept was a bunch of like-new sine bars and sine plates. I haven't used them once. Recently I tried to pawn them off on a buddy who is a far better machinist than I'll ever be. He said he had a bunch that were his dad's, and he's never used them. Need any sine plates?

Just yesterday I was playing in the cave where I keep some of my toys, and a new tenant from across the way came over to see what was going on. After I showed him my stuff, we went over to his place. He had little mills like mine, lathes, giant turning centers, giant mills, giant boring machines, EDM's, and everything was about as close together as you could fit it. Some of the machines must have been 50+ years old, yet they're still cranking out parts for rockets and satellites that you see on tv.
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#26

Post by RustyIron »

Bolster wrote:
Fri May 27, 2022 7:30 pm

Rusty, I'm going to send you a photo by PM of a line shaft lathe that my grandfather bequeathed me. I'm not sure what to do with it, or what CAN be done with it. PM, so as not to derail this thread further!
Sure, send some pics. And just to keep it on topic, lathes can be used for poking holes where there didn't used to be holes.
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Xplorer
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#27

Post by Xplorer »

RustyIron wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:00 am
.. You can't take the contents of a full garage and fit it into another full garage without disrupting the rules of quantum mechanics, so I ended up having to let a lot of his tools go.
For someone who enjoys the history of old tools and appreciates the work of the people who's shoulders we stand on today, it would have been difficult for me to decide what to let go in your case. When I was able to get a few tools from my grandpa's shop I wasn't doing as much "making" as I do now and my dad was there to take the bulk of the good stuff. I just took a few things that my dad already had and didn't want. One day, many of those tools he took may still find their way into my shop I suppose.
RustyIron wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:00 am
...The one thing I kept was a bunch of like-new sine bars and sine plates. ... Need any sine plates?
Possibly.?. I don't have any currently. I would probably not need more than 1 or 2 though. When I make my back-lock folder the lock faces are cut at very specific angles and mounting a tool vise to a good sine plate might be a faster and more convenient way to keep the cuts consistent than what I am doing currently. The biggest problem for me is that good sine plates are expensive. I may not be able to afford to buy them from you. The other question is size. I run these jobs on a mini-mill and my X-Y table is only 7"x26", so a plate anywhere between 4" and 8" wide is ideal for me. Many of the older sine plates that I've seen have been larger because they were built to be used on a full size knee mill like yours. So, it depends on the details I suppose. If you have any you think I might be interested in send me a P.M.
RustyIron wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:00 am
Just yesterday I was playing in the cave where I keep some of my toys, and a new tenant from across the way came over to see what was going on. After I showed him my stuff, we went over to his place. He had little mills like mine, lathes, giant turning centers, giant mills, giant boring machines, EDM's, and everything was about as close together as you could fit it. Some of the machines must have been 50+ years old, yet they're still cranking out parts for rockets and satellites that you see on tv.
That's really cool! Also lucky to have a neighbor with good tools, mechanical skills and shared interests.

I find it amazing to run into a neighbor that makes things or even uses tools much at all. I'm often "that guy" for other people.

I too had a tool related neighbor encounter this past weekend... but it's sort of the opposite story.

Sunday morning I was walking my dog and saw a new neighbor working on his old Chevy camper van parked on the street. When I waved and said hello he asked me if I new anything about "mechanical stuff". :') :') I said, "Sure. I know a little bit, what's going on?".

He was visibly stressed. He was trying to replace a water pump so he could take his kids camping and motorcycle riding. He had the willingness to dive in and a "git 'er done" attitude but he didn't have the right tools to do it, or the experience to anticipate the challenges he would have to overcome. When I told my son that I'd be outside helping the neighbor, he said "he needs help fixing a car so kids can go camping??? He has no idea how lucky he is, does he?" My son knows that taking kids camping is all the motivation I need.

My neighbor had a couple threaded rods that were stuck in place, he couldn't get the hose barb off the old pump, had a leak he couldn't find, and a few other obstacles stopping his progress. Fortunately, I spent 10 years (in the past) teaching automotive technicians about the chemistry of all vehicle fluids and how to perform a wide variety of maintenance services. I also have all the tools for demonstrating the service work while I did the training. Plus I've been working on my own cars since as far back as auto-shop in high school. I even built my own stock car some years ago and raced it in a Nascar Saturday night short-track series as a one-man-race-team for a few years.

As I began fixing the stuff that he had struggled with he literally said "I can't believe I ran into someone who actually knows how to work on cars these days". Sadly, I had to agree he was lucky and it does indeed seem to be rare to find people that can fix things anymore. About 3 hours later we had his water pump installed, van running beautifully, temp under control, no leaks, no air pockets in the lines...and he loaded up the kids and headed for the desert. It was worth the effort to me just to see the kids excited that the trip was back on. I was also quite pleased to see the van come back in good shape late last night with tired kids on board. I went outside to look under the van this morning. No leaks. Mission accomplished! :smlling-eyes .

One of the reasons I'm so fond of the Mule section of the Spyderco Forum and the people that participate here is because it's one of the few places where I get to talk with other people who like to use tools and make things. So, while it's on my mind I'd like to say to all of you Mule makers...I appreciate you!

CK
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#28

Post by RustyIron »

Xplorer wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 1:39 pm
The other question is size. I run these jobs on a mini-mill and my X-Y table is only 7"x26", so a plate anywhere between 4" and 8" wide is ideal for me.
If you can put a couple to use, that's all that matters. I'll shoot a couple pics tomorrow and take measurements. I'm certain some are under 8". I live in La Habra. If they're what you need, you're welcome to come by and pick them up. If you like cars, on Sunday I can bring them to the Friends of Steve McQueen Car Show, at the Boys Republic in Chino Hills.
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#29

Post by TomAiello »

Can anyone recommend a small mill for home shop use? I have some Proxxon tools that have been really nice for knife work (they are cheaper than similar quality tools because of their very small size, but still large enough for almost everything I need to do) and have been looking at their micro mills, but I wanted to see if anyone here could recommend anything else.
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Xplorer
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#30

Post by Xplorer »

^^
Hi Tom. I have been using a Grizzly G0704 for about 5 years. Many times I have pushed it harder than it was intended to be used and it has impressed me. I also talk with Michael Reinhold from time to time (designer of the Spyderco Rhino). He bought the same mill about 3 years ago and he has told me that he is happy he bought the G0704 as well.

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzl ... tand/g0704

The precision and accuracy (spindle squared to the table, spindle run-out and table level accuracy throughout it's range left-right and front-back) was better than expected as delivered. I am able to use it for drilling folder blade pivot holes that require the best possible perpendicular accuracy with excellent results. It has also retained it's accuracy extremely well over time. The lash adjustments are easy to dial in and the measurements on the table wheels are good. Speed control is infinite from 50-2250 RPM. The digital depth readout is accurate and very helpful (just remember to turn off the screen when you're done or you will be replacing that battery a lot). An R8 spindle makes it easy to find tool holders, and R8 spindles are not very expensive.

Here's the one and only "problem" I've had...
On at least 4 separate occasions I have run it on high speed for so long that it over-heated (after 3-4 hours nearly continuous use). Each and every time I knew I was taking a risk by running it that hot. The first 3 times it shut off and I was able to turn it back on after it cooled down a bit. The last time that happened it shut off and wouldn't come back on at all. I thought I had burnt up the motor for sure. After walking through some diagnostics with a very helpful service tech over the phone, I found that I had only burnt the safety kill switch connected to the chip shield. Long ago I had removed the chip shield but left the switch in tact because it wasn't in my way. After figuring out that the switch had fried I simply removed it, connected the wires together without the switch and my mill was good as new! As you might imagine, I was quite relieved that I hadn't damage the motor and even better, I was able to fix the problem for free.

As I was talking with the service guy he said the G0704 is also the mill he uses at home. For what it's worth, he said it was his favorite of the Grizzly mini mills for it's mixture of capacity, durability and a few technical reasons as well. One thing he pointed out that surprised me was that there are some plastic gears in the head unit. To me that sounded like a bad thing. I hear plastic gears and I think "cheap...sub-par quality". He explained that people call every day with larger models containing steel gears after destroying their motor. At that point the only solution is to buy an expensive new motor. But the G0704 uses some plastic gears to protect the motor. If you over-tax it the gears will give way before the motor does and they are about $5 and take roughly 30 minutes to replace. Now I see them as a good thing. Especially given that I have used the mill hard for 5 years and still have never seen any sign of the gears wearing out in any way.

There are a few others out there that look to me like they might be the same machine. But if I'm going to buy a Chinese tool (I prefer not to if I can afford something better) I want to make sure there's a reliable company in America and a good service department to back it up. Grizzly checks those boxes and their service department exceeded my expectations.

I also like the mini mills offered by Little Machine Shop but I chose the Grizzly over the L.M.S. version because of the price difference and I'm happy with my choice.
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RustyIron
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#31

Post by RustyIron »

TomAiello wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:20 am
Can anyone recommend a small mill for home shop use?

A while back, when my lathe was a little post-war Logan marketed by Montgomery Ward, an Aussie friend was staying with us. Reg was a talented machinist. He'd been doing it for a LOT of years. During the time I knew him, he taught me some valuable lessons. One bit of advice was that although it was possible to do reasonable work on an old used lathe, it's far easier to do precise work on a new import. He had just bought a new Enco, and he spoke very highly of it.

I'm looking at MSC Direct right now, and a manual Enco knee mill starts at about ten grovers... and that's without DRO's. They have an Enco mill/drill for about a third that. Don't forget tooling, also. It all ads up.

It might be more economical to start looking around the local ads. Shops go out of business, old hobbyists tip over, and their children want to clear out the garage. It's not uncommon to get fully-equipped machine tools for prices that are affordable to regular guys.
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Bolster
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#32

Post by Bolster »

Xplorer wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 11:07 am
^^
Hi Tom. I have been using a Grizzly G0704 for about 5 years.

Griz G0463, the rebranded Sieg X3, for me. Now disco'd by Griz, I notice. Also an R8 machine. No CNC, just manual, though I did buy a DRO for the Z axis. Also purchased a rotating table. So I can mill straight lines and arcs, but I can't mill, say, lettering or any other complex curvature.

I think the 0463 is a bit cheaper and lower HP and heavier than the G0704 (353 vs 265 lbs), so more of a donkey and less of a race horse. Since 2009, still running strong. No tilting head, which I have missed only once...when I wanted to make a fish-scale pattern. The general advice is to buy as heavy as you can manage, and 353 lbs is a bit more than I can comfortably move on a dolly, and a bit less than I wish I owned. Ideally I'd like a 500 lb machine. (A real, truly manly mill such as a Bridgeport is more like 2000 lbs, IIRC. I think Rusty owns manly machines, capable of creating engine blocks out of solid chunks of steel, leaping over tall buildings in a single bound, etc.)

Avoid round column machines, unless you want to spend your days tramming the machine over and over! I've seen guys find clever workarounds for round columns, such as beaming a laser attached to the head, onto a line on the wall, etc, but it's enough of a faff that it might discourage you.

Like C.K., I went back and forth between Grizzly and LMS as my source. At the time, LMS only offered the X2 and I wanted the larger X3, so Griz it was for me. Have eyeballed the Encos and they look good, too.

I wonder if the X3/0463 has the plastic gear protection also?...
TomAiello wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 9:20 am
I have some Proxxon tools that have been really nice for knife work ...

Proxxon...nice! That's quality toolage, Tom. I have not gotten around to it yet, but I've often thought of making a custom holder for my Foredom flex shaft and inserting that into the head of my mill, to do fine, high RPM work. The X3 tops out at 2000 RPM which is OK for wood but not ideal. (Not that you would EVER do wood on a mill...you'd get lectured for sure...but I have, after draping the ways, and really cleaning up after.)
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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RustyIron
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#33

Post by RustyIron »


My friend Don was a genius. I don’t really know his IQ, but he was the sort of guy who understood complex things, and could figure out solutions before you could finish defining the problem. He was a mold maker, which is like being a machinist, except everything is reverse, you have to take expansion and contraction into consideration, and you have to understand the behaviors of different states of all sorts of materials. In other words, you have to be kinda special to do it at an elite level.

Just hanging around Don, you couldn’t help but learn things. One little trick I learned is so simple that it’s hardly worth mentioning, but so useful that I’d be negligent to omit it. The trick isn’t just about drilling, but it’s applicable to any operation you’re performing with a vise.

We’ve all been there: Your work is clamped in the vise, you’re drilling, milling, filing, or something else that requires precise cutting. And then your work slips in the vice, causing broken bits, bloody knuckles, and unsightly gouges in your work. You curse your foolishness for allowing this to happen. You reposition the work in the vise, making sure to tighten it extremely well, maybe even tighter than is reasonable for your vise. Then you start again, and… the work slips!!!

The cause of the slippage is complicated, but the solution is simple. Put a slip of paper between the vise jaws and the work. The amount of friction that the paper provides is dramatic. That’s it: paper in the vise jaws. It’s an elegant solution to an infuriating problem.

When the realtors drop notepads on my doorstep, I bring them to the garage. Not only are they good for sketches and notes, but with the help of your razor sharp Spyderco, they can be sliced into strips suitable for use in the vise.



IMG_6343.jpg
Keep the pad of paper handy

IMG_6346.jpg
Slice off some strips

IMG_6345.jpg
Russian writing?

IMG_6347.jpg
Tighten on the paper strips for secure work holding

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Bolster
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#34

Post by Bolster »

RustyIron wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:32 pm
Put a slip of paper between the vise jaws and the work. The amount of friction that the paper provides is dramatic.

Well I'll be switched. I would have never thought of paper increasing the grip. Thanks for this.
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#35

Post by Ramonade »

Thanks for the paper trick.
I have not had any issue with my work piece slipping from the vice yet, but I do not want to see it happen!

I said in the how to make a Mule handle thread that my plans for a screw construction Mule wete compromised for the one I was working on.

This is due to how I drilled the second hole for the corbys. I did use a center punch and did place a drill bit in the first hole to keep everything in place. However, I made the bad decision of not drilling through the mule tang, since i had center punched for yhe holes.

I do not know if it was the punch that was too small, or the fact that the vise was very low, inducing play with the drill press. But this resulted in too much of a gap, like 0.5mm to 1mm. I had to gently redrill the side of the second hole to be able to assemble the handle.
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#36

Post by Bolster »

Center punching is an iffy business at best. When I have to do it, I use a set of sized transfer punches. Even then I can be off enough to cause aggrivation. Center punching just isn't super exact.

Often there are "direct" or "dead rekoning" ways of finding center; one I use frequently is a flat-ended mill bit the same size as the hole in the tang; then the entire hole in the tang is used to center the piece under the bit. Once centered, change out the mill bit for the drill bit of the hole size I want.

If you must center punch (metal), consider using layout dye and marking your piece in conjunction with calipers. Machinists use an optical center punch when they are forced to rely on a center punch. I have always wanted one of these but don't own one yet. Things get less precise in wood of course. Your center punch may be exactly precise in wood, but the way the wood grows means there are pockets of hard and soft, and the drill bit follows the soft areas and wanders off center. In these cases you don't want to work up from a narrow to the correct sized bit, because it's the narrow bits that wander in wood (well, in metal too).

One of the guys on this subforum who is a real machinist can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think when you are hafting a knife you are working to a precision somewhere around a hundredth of an inch, so tools like calipers, layout dye, and optical center punches come in handy. That seems an absurd amount of accuracy for working with wood, doesn't it? But I think that's about what's necessary to do it right, since the metal in the tang is completely uncompromising. It forces you to adopt metal tolerances for wood! If you are fitting metal scales, then you're probably working to a thousandth of an inch, which is typical for metal.

I just bumped an old thread I started about removable onlay scales...should be near the top of the pile currently. That my be of help? viewtopic.php?f=15&t=89796
Steel novice who self-identifies as a steel expert. Proud M.N.O.S.D. member 0003. Spydie Steels: 4V, 15V, 20CV, AEB-L, AUS6, Cru-Wear, HAP40, K294, K390, M4, Magnacut, S110V, S30V, S35VN, S45VN, SPY27, SRS13, T15, VG10, XHP, ZWear, ZDP189
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#37

Post by Ramonade »

Thanks, I noticed and read it !
I still need to acquire the center finder thingy by the way.
And for the moment, I'll only go through the tang, like I did before. This was working very well. I got distracted for a couple of seconds talking about the process to my uncle and managed to not follow the said process, ironic isn't it :winking-tongue
:respect In the collection :respect : Lots of different steels, in lots of different (and same) Spydercos.

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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#38

Post by WilliamMunny »

I am working on my first set of scales and have a drilling question. One side of my scales is flat that I will draw the mule outline and holes on. The other side is fairly flat but not perfectly parallel. If I have my flat side down on the drill press how do I know where to drill since the template is on the bottom side? If I flip it then the drill would not be exactly 90 degrees to my flat reference side.

Thanks.
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#39

Post by Ramonade »

WilliamMunny wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:30 pm
I am working on my first set of scales and have a drilling question. One side of my scales is flat that I will draw the mule outline and holes on. The other side is fairly flat but not perfectly parallel. If I have my flat side down on the drill press how do I know where to drill since the template is on the bottom side? If I flip it then the drill would not be exactly 90 degrees to my flat reference side.

Thanks.
I do not have enough experience to really have any important input. However, I've done my first set of scales pretty recently too, and I've encountered the same situation.

What I ended up doing is tracing the outline like you, but I did trace it too on the side that is gonna face the tang of the blade. Maybe it is flat enough to give you a configuration to drill through everything lined up while still being 90+ to your flat ?
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Re: Let's talk Drilling.

#40

Post by Tucson Tom »

What a great thread. Thanks so much for launching this.

When I first got my mill and lathe I sought out a professional machinist for some advice. My education began with a sobering set of safety lectures. Your experience with the long "chip" almost removing the end of your finger gave me the heebie jeebies. Thanks for being up front enough to share and perhaps save one of us (like me) from a similar episode.

I essentially always clamp things down before drilling. Of course my mill/drill has a precision table that I can then turn cranks on to put the object I am drilling exactly where I want it. When I drill something hand holding it, I figure it is better than 50/50 that the drill will catch it and start it spinning at some point. I try to have a plan for when that happens. The plan is usually get my hand out of the game, shut the drill off and then deal with things.
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