Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

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WilliamMunny
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Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#1

Post by WilliamMunny »

I recently got a beautiful block of Coolibah Burl that I want to turn into scales for my Z-Wear Mule. The block has a large split (1/64” - 1/16”) down most of the middle. I would like to use epoxy (black I am thinking) to pour in the crack to hold the wood together and I think it could add to the look of the final scales.

My question is should I do the epoxy poor to fill the split then send it off to get stabilized clear or should I get it stabilized then do the epoxy?

I am worried that if I epoxy first the wood could break / pull from the epoxy / etc due the the pressure and process of stabilization. Plus the epoxy could seal some spots not letting the stabilization soak in. But I am equally worried it I stabilize first it will seal up parts of the split and make it hard to get the epoxy to fully fill it. I have added a picture of one half for reference.

Thanks
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sbdude
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#2

Post by sbdude »

I don't have an aswer for you, just wanted to say that is a beautiful piece of wood.
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#3

Post by TomAiello »

If you are going to fill the crack with epoxy, I wouldn't expect it to substantially reduce the resin uptake from stabilizing. The resin will still get drawn in through the rest of the wood.

I haven't actually tried this sort of thing, and now I want to. I've only done hybrid epoxy (basically casting the piece in a block of epoxy and then sanding it back down to the wood). I've never tried a specific fill to fix a crack. When I've done hybrid epoxy (and I haven't done very much of it) I've stabilized the wood first, then cast it in the epoxy, and then sanded it back down to the (stabilized) wood. I've had reasonable results doing that, but I wouldn't say my sample size is large enough to be definitive--I have only done a couple pieces that way.
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Xplorer
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#4

Post by Xplorer »

Stabilizing it first will most likely fill that gap completely. However, I would suggest that it wouldn't look bad if you filled it with clear resin and by the time you finish the scales you might find most of that gap is sanded away anyway.

If you fill the gap with black epoxy it should be fine during the vacuum and/or pressure phases but it may not fare well in the final curing phase. Most 2 part epoxies are able to resist about 175F but after wood is stabilized it is usually cured in an oven at 200F.

If you're planning to have it stabilized anyway, you have the option of stabilizing it in black resin. The stabilizing resin will only be filling the gaps where air exists currently. Since the wood you have is dense, black resin will cause it to darken a little but not much. For the most part black resin will just give you black lines where there is no wood and basically achieve the look you are going for.

I did this experiment with a piece of very punky cork oak. It was airy and almost spongy like you'd expect cork to be. I stabilized it with black resin and it is now nice and hard and looks nice too.
Image
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WilliamMunny
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#5

Post by WilliamMunny »

Xplorer wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:02 am
Stabilizing it first will most likely fill that gap completely. However, I would suggest that it wouldn't look bad if you filled it with clear resin and by the time you finish the scales you might find most of that gap is sanded away anyway.

If you fill the gap with black epoxy it should be fine during the vacuum and/or pressure phases but it may not fare well in the final curing phase. Most 2 part epoxies are able to resist about 175F but after wood is stabilized it is usually cured in an oven at 200F.

If you're planning to have it stabilized anyway, you have the option of stabilizing it in black resin. The stabilizing resin will only be filling the gaps where air exists currently. Since the wood you have is dense, black resin will cause it to darken a little but not much. For the most part black resin will just give you black lines where there is no wood and basically achieve the look you are going for.

I did this experiment with a piece of very punky cork oak. It was airy and almost spongy like you'd expect cork to be. I stabilized it with black resin and it is now nice and hard and looks nice too.
Image
That looks great. I was under the impression that stabilizing wood did not fill larger cracks, gaps, splits, etc. The crack is all the way through the other side but if I stabilize in back and it would fill it then that would be great. I plan to send it to K&G since I don’t want to spend the $200 on my own equipment just to do a few knife scales.
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#6

Post by RustyIron »

Xplorer wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:02 am

I did this experiment with a piece of very punky cork oak. It was airy and almost spongy like you'd expect cork to be. I stabilized it with black resin and it is now nice and hard and looks nice too.

Brian Eno once said, "The first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band."

Similarly, only a handful of Spyderco Forum members saw pictures of your work, but every one of them went out and bought some wood and epoxy.

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Xplorer
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#7

Post by Xplorer »

RustyIron wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:36 pm
Xplorer wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:02 am

I did this experiment with a piece of very punky cork oak. It was airy and almost spongy like you'd expect cork to be. I stabilized it with black resin and it is now nice and hard and looks nice too.

Brian Eno once said, "The first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but everyone who bought it formed a band."

Similarly, only a handful of Spyderco Forum members saw pictures of your work, but every one of them went out and bought some wood and epoxy.

Thank you for the generous comparison!

That "handful of Spyderco Forum members" are my personal favorite group of members of course. ;)
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#8

Post by Xplorer »

WilliamMunny wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:38 pm
That looks great. I was under the impression that stabilizing wood did not fill larger cracks, gaps, splits, etc. The crack is all the way through the other side but if I stabilize in back and it would fill it then that would be great. I plan to send it to K&G since I don’t want to spend the $200 on my own equipment just to do a few knife scales.
I don't know of anyone better that K&G when it comes to stabilizing. Talk to them about what you want. Those guys will definitely know how to get it done right for you.
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burlyspyder
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#9

Post by burlyspyder »

I second xplorer's comments.

In addition, I would be very weary of how you process that material so that you are happy with the resulting layout post-stabilization. I have always used clear epoxy, but after seeing X's pic above, I am reconsidering. In fact, I recently got a bunch of strontium aluminate, and thinking of using that mixed in....interesting idea.

Also, don't be afraid to make mistakes - just go for it. You will learn more by doing it than anyone can ever tell you, as long as you are paying attention while you are working. If you screw up and need another block, just let me know. :)

Cheers, and good luck!
-burly
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#10

Post by standy99 »

Someone asks for help….Several of us end up learning from some of the responses.

Love the black mix in the Cork Xplorer


I would be stabilising then epoxy. If you mix a bit of black into the glue up epoxy you could do it all in one.
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#11

Post by TomAiello »

I definitely need to find some cork I can mess with. That stuff looks amazing. I'd love to find a dark colored (black?) cork and stabilize it with a red resin. I wonder if the cork would take dye, if I could do that prior to stabilizing. Hmmm....
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Xplorer
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Re: Stabilize or Epoxy first Wood Scales

#12

Post by Xplorer »

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:33 pm
I definitely need to find some cork I can mess with. That stuff looks amazing. I'd love to find a dark colored (black?) cork and stabilize it with a red resin. I wonder if the cork would take dye, if I could do that prior to stabilizing. Hmmm....
This was the first and only time I've worked with cork oak. It was a total shot in the dark, just one of those.."hmm I wonder what would happen if I threw this in too" :thinking moments.
I didn't try dying any first so I couldn't tell you from experience how well it will accept dye alone. In fact, I've never tried dying any wood with just dye alone. I've found that different wood species take on the color of the dye I've added to the resin to varying degrees. Some woods get a lot darker, some only slightly darken and others (like the cork oak) don't seem to darken much at all. Based solely on this one result I would guess that cork doesn't take dye very well because the black in my resin only showed up in the gaps. I could be wrong though.

Here's an opposite result where the blue in my resin fully saturated the wood everywhere except for a few tiny streaks of harder (?) wood within the grain. Other than one used blue and the cork project used black, they were both done the same way.
Image

As for red, that's a color that requires testing for sure. I've made the mistake of not testing the mix ratio and made myself more than one set of really stable and durable pink scales. :woozy
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