Holes and mules (knife making)

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Tucson Tom
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Holes and mules (knife making)

#1

Post by Tucson Tom »

They say it is hard to turn a vehicles wheels when it is standing still, but get it moving and there is no problem.

So I am taking this concept to knife making. I have sat around fretting over exactly how to make handles for my mules for (believe it or not) years now. I decided I just need to get moving and be willing to make some mistakes and learn.

I have my B70P mule (MT20) selected as the first candidate. The first mule I ever purchased. My idea is to use some strips of oak that I got as scraps from a local cabinet shop and try to work with those. I also figure to just use some brass rod stock as pins. I have a pair of bottles of "Bob Smith Industry" slow cure epoxy here, so in theory I just need to get busy.

Measuring holes in the mule, I see 0.395 for the big hole (about 3/8 or 10mm) and 0.195 for the little holes (nicely 3/16). But this leads to several questions and the reason for this post.

1 - I could let my 3/16 pins pass through the big holes (and put enough extra epoxy there to fill the holes) This would allow my drilling to be less precise (as long as holes in both scales matched). The pins would mostly serve to secure the two scales to one another. I could even use 1/4 brass rod.

2 - I could use 2 or 3 of the small holes and be careful to drill everything to line up. I spent some time last night looking at the "show your mule" thread and it looks like most folks there use the small holes, however ...

3) Looking at the photos and squinting a lot, I will swear that even though the hole position matches the 3/16 small holes on the mule, the exposed brass on the finished knives looks bigger than 3/16. Hard to judge. Just what is going on?

4) Maybe I have it figured out? Searching online this morning for "mosaic pins", Amazon suggested some other things and I see these interesting bolts with fatter ends. Corby bolts. Could people be using these, epoxying them in place, and grinding the ends flat. I see them with a 4mm small diameter (0.157) and a 6mm big diameter (0.236). Hmmm.

Well that is enough questions and thinking outloud for one post. Any tips and pointers at this stage will get me off to a proper start and will be greatly appreciated! Meanwhile I am getting things all lined up on my workbench.

I was going to put off mule making until I got my second hand bandsaw working, but I decided "heck with that" and figure to just use a coping saw to rough things out once I get the sandwich epoxied together. All in the spirit of, "just get busy" and "use what you got".

Mosaic pins and lanyard tubes for a later day.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#2

Post by TomAiello »

I use corby bolts on mine. So the finished 'end' is definitely bigger than the internal hole. That means you have to double drill, though. If you're going to use corby's do yourself a favor and buy some counterbore bits--they make it much, much easier. (examples: https://usaknifemaker.com/catalogsearch ... =corby+bit)

When I'm fitting scales with corbies, I do multiple test fits, tightening the corbies down to check fit and alignment, before I ever bring epoxy into the picture.

For your first one, I'd suggest just going with the larger holes and lots of extra epoxy. It'll make it a lot easier and less frustrating to line up, and make it more likely that you will carry on making more.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#3

Post by RustyIron »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:56 pm

I was going to put off mule making until I got my second hand bandsaw working, but I decided "heck with that" and figure to just use a coping saw to rough things out once I get the sandwich epoxied together. All in the spirit of, "just get busy" and "use what you got".
Right on, Tom. It's not about the tools, it's about the craftsman doing the work. I've only done one Mule, and the second one is currently "in process," just being started last week.

To rough out my slabs of wood, I used a hacksaw, disc grinder, and bench grinder. After the first hole is drilled, I put a locating pin through the blade and into the scale. Subsequent holes are drilled using the blade as a jig. Easy peasy. Before assembling, I sand down the scales at the front, near the ricasso, to finish size. It's easier to do it now, rather than later.

The pins I use are 3/16" locating dowels, not because they're in any way superior to anything else, but because I have a LOT of them. Blade, rough scales, and overly long pins are then epoxied and clamped. The one I'm doing now has hidden pins, that are only on the inside.

Finish-sizing the scales is done with a disc sander and a sanding drum chucked into my vertical mill. It's much easier than you might think.

Make no mistake, there are guys here doing spectacular work, and I'm not one of them. The few knives I've done are plain and simple... not crude... but certainly nothing fancy. My point is, at this level it's not rocket science. Like many other things in life, if you flub it up the first time, you can always get a do-over.
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Tucson Tom
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#4

Post by Tucson Tom »

TomAiello wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 1:03 pm

If you're going to use corby's do yourself a favor and buy some counterbore bits--they make it much, much easier. (examples: https://usaknifemaker.com/catalogsearch ... =corby+bit)

For your first one, I'd suggest just going with the larger holes and lots of extra epoxy. It'll make it a lot easier and less frustrating to line up, and make it more likely that you will carry on making more.
Wow, solid carbide and given that a fair price. I'll take that advice, but probably put that on the list of stuff to buy for mule 2 and future. I'll probably be glad to have the solid carbide when I work my way up to micarta someday.

As for drilling, I am thinking about doing what you say. Use the big holes (this time anyway), use 1/4 brass rod (since I have it on hand) and I'll use a 1/4 inch endmill to drill the holes. I am sure that a regular 1/4 drill will tear up the wood, but I am optimistic that a sharp 1/4 endmill (which I actually do have on hand) will do a nicer job -- but I can experiment drilling some scrap first, see how deep the surface damage goes and allow some thickness to sand off and remove it.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#5

Post by TomAiello »

I tend to drill a very small pilot hole before I bring in the larger bits. I find that I tear up the scale material a lot less that way.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#6

Post by FullScaler »

You can do it Tom. It may seem intimidating but just go slow and have fun. It is actually pretty easy once you get at it.

I do much like Rustyiron said above. Keep my Scale material oversize and after drilling the first hole I slide a pin in to keep it all in place and use the tang holes as a guide for the rest.

I use the small holes and a 3/16" brass pins. Just drill very gently and keep in mind that your first may not be perfect. The epoxy really helps Hide tiny imperfections and everything else can be sanded out. :winking-tongue

After it is alll glued up you just rough out the scales with whatever you have, bandsaw, scrollsaw, Jigsaw, or even just rasps and files like I did in the pics below. Then, just get sanding, lol.

Be aware that if you are hand sanding that the harder pins can tend to "stand proud" as the wood sands easier but as with the other steps, if you just go slow and have fun doing it, it will all turn out great.
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Tucson Tom
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#7

Post by Tucson Tom »

Have fun and go slow. That sounds like excellent advice. I found my 3/16 brass rod, so that is what I will use in the small holes. Nothing stands in the way, I have all the materials lines up. Really the thing I am now fretting about most is shaping the handles, but I am getting ahead of myself. I remind myself that the PM2 is just flat slabs of G10 and I enjoy using that knife regularly.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#8

Post by standy99 »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:50 pm
Have fun and go slow. That sounds like excellent advice. I found my 3/16 brass rod, so that is what I will use in the small holes. Nothing stands in the way, I have all the materials lines up. Really the thing I am now fretting about most is shaping the handles, but I am getting ahead of myself. I remind myself that the PM2 is just flat slabs of G10 and I enjoy using that knife regularly.

Flat slabs works. Here is my flat slab style with Ringed Gidgee scales.

Mostly done with sandpaper only after shaping.

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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#9

Post by Bolster »

Hi Tom! I'll take a crack at your questions also:

1) As mentioned above, if you use the mule as a guide for drilling, you'll be plenty accurate (even with a not-recommended hand drill, if you clamp before drilling). Just put the mule on top of your scale, clamp, (mark or center punch for extra care,) and drill.

The issue with the above ^ is the potential "blowout" on the outside of the scale. Several workarounds: When you clamp, clamp another piece of hard wood to the outside your scale. That supports your scale. Short of that, use masking tape on the outside of your scale where the bit will exit. OR, use a woodworkng bit (preferably in combo with above), which has a spur in the center and cuts from the outside of the hole rather than from the inside like an all-purpose bit. OR, use a very small bit (in which case the mule is not working as a drill guide very much; you'd need to mark the center of each hole) and drill a pilot hole, then flip the scales over and drill from the outside in. I'd still use at least the masking tape trick to keep the wood near the outside of the hole intact. And of course, thicker scales give you more options to sand out anything that goes wrong---but takes a lot more time.

Personally I prefer to use the small holes and a pin that fits them precisely, so that the pins, rather than the epoxy, are taking the stress of use. I think the small holes have a pleasant spacing when three are used. Using the smaller 3/16 pins, as opposed to 3/8 pins, also makes for a lighter knife (unless you use tube instead of pins).

2) That's what I do

3 & 4) Yes, those are knives from folks who use Corby bolts. You screw them into place and then grind off the slotted head. As they've said, unless you have the ability to precisely place your work (such as on a mill) then get the countersinks if you want to drill for Corbys.

Tips and pointers: I guess I'm the odd man out. I often don't use epoxy at all. I use screws. I like the option of taking the scales off, and using the knife "naked" (or swapping for ultralight scales) for ultralight backpacking trips. This lets me upgrade or change the scales whenever I want. Some folks would object to the small "bump" made by the screw head but I rather like the indexing function they provide in the hand, especially on smooth scales.

I don't put my scales on and then shape them. Mine are fully shaped by the time I put them on the knife. I typically router the edges of the scale for a precise roundover effect.

I don't run my scales all the way to the tang. I think I have a better intuitive feel of where the blade is if I leave a small ridge of tang all the way around. So I do mostly "onlay" scales.

I typically hollow out my scales on the inside for reduced weight. Below are a smooth Cherry palmswell scale, and a Walnut scale with room for Benjamin Franklin on the inside.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#10

Post by RustyIron »

Stand, 99, Bolster... it's cool seeing what out guys do. It gives me ideas for future projects.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#11

Post by MightyQ »

Bolster wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:48 am
Hi Tom! I'll take a crack at your questions also:

1) As mentioned above, if you use the mule as a guide for drilling, you'll be plenty accurate (even with a not-recommended hand drill, if you clamp before drilling). Just put the mule on top of your scale, clamp, (mark or center punch for extra care,) and drill.

The issue with the above ^ is the potential "blowout" on the outside of the scale. Several workarounds: When you clamp, clamp another piece of hard wood to the outside your scale. That supports your scale. Short of that, use masking tape on the outside of your scale where the bit will exit. OR, use a woodworkng bit (preferably in combo with above), which has a spur in the center and cuts from the outside of the hole rather than from the inside like an all-purpose bit. OR, use a very small bit (in which case the mule is not working as a drill guide very much; you'd need to mark the center of each hole) and drill a pilot hole, then flip the scales over and drill from the outside in. I'd still use at least the masking tape trick to keep the wood near the outside of the hole intact. And of course, thicker scales give you more options to sand out anything that goes wrong---but takes a lot more time.

Personally I prefer to use the small holes and a pin that fits them precisely, so that the pins, rather than the epoxy, are taking the stress of use. I think the small holes have a pleasant spacing when three are used. Using the smaller 3/16 pins, as opposed to 3/8 pins, also makes for a lighter knife (unless you use tube instead of pins).

2) That's what I do

3 & 4) Yes, those are knives from folks who use Corby bolts. You screw them into place and then grind off the slotted head. As they've said, unless you have the ability to precisely place your work (such as on a mill) then get the countersinks if you want to drill for Corbys.

Tips and pointers: I guess I'm the odd man out. I often don't use epoxy at all. I use screws. I like the option of taking the scales off, and using the knife "naked" (or swapping for ultralight scales) for ultralight backpacking trips. This lets me upgrade or change the scales whenever I want. Some folks would object to the small "bump" made by the screw head but I rather like the indexing function they provide in the hand, especially on smooth scales.

I don't put my scales on and then shape them. Mine are fully shaped by the time I put them on the knife. I typically router the edges of the scale for a precise roundover effect.

I don't run my scales all the way to the tang. I think I have a better intuitive feel of where the blade is if I leave a small ridge of tang all the way around. So I do mostly "onlay" scales.

I typically hollow out my scales on the inside for reduced weight. Below are a smooth Cherry palmswell scale, and a Walnut scale with room for Benjamin Franklin on the inside.
Wow Bolster may I ask how you got such nice jimping on your blade? I’d love to learn how to do that!
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#12

Post by Michael Janich »

Dear MightyQ:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#13

Post by Bolster »

MightyQ wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 4:20 pm
Wow Bolster may I ask how you got such nice jimping on your blade? I’d love to learn how to do that!

Than-Q. And welcome!!

Amazingly (to me!) a carbide engraving bit (I prefer a 60 degree bit) will cut you some very nice jimping into even a hardened blade, if you take it between 5 and 10 thousandths at a time.

The downside is that you need a solid mill to do the work. BUT, any machinist would do it for you, if you don't feel like purchasing a mill just to jimp!

Alternately, I've had good (but not great) luck with a dremel cutoff wheel. Again, I use the precision of a mill, rather than freehanding it. It will give you square-ish jimping rather than the sawtooth jimping of a 60 degree bit, which is why I don't use it--I prefer the sawtooth profile myself, and I think crud is less likely to accumulate in a 60-degree trough than a straight-sided one. Square jimping looks a little "home made" to my eye, but it works well very for thumb traction, all the same.
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Re: Holes and mules (knife making)

#14

Post by Xplorer »

Glad to hear you're making your own handle Tucson Tom!

It's great to see lots of good advise here for you already.

There's a lot of options for hardware as well as which holes you use and whether or not to make any modifications. There aren't a lot of wrong answers. If, at the end of the project it's not what you hoped for you can always start over. The first handle I ever put on a Mule became unsatisfactory to me after a while and I just ground it off and made another one.

Corbys and loveless bolts have a shoulder that pinch the scales together horizontally as well as supporting the scales vertically. Vertical support is what is most important. Pins provide vertical support and can either be left flat (in which case you rely on epoxy for horizontal support) or can be peened or domed to provide horizontal clamping as well.

In the thread I linked below, I tried to show and discuss every step of the process. While the metal inserts I made for the corbys in this thread are not necessary, you still might find some helpful tips or even just a few pictures that may help answer little questions about the process.
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=89740

If you ever get "stumped" you know there's a lot of people here that can help you with whatever you encounter. You're always welcome to send me a private message if you'd like as well, and I'll do my best to help you.

I look forward to seeing your first Mule handle!!
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