Folding Mule?

[sethwm]

Hi Fireman,

This topic has been discussed a number of times, but we always blank out. We recognize that folders would be more convenient for the "tester", but folders have all sorts of their own challenges. The only folder that we could even consider would be a slip joint. Locks are very complicated and dangerous if not assembled correctly. This is especially true of lock-backs and the potential liability issues are too great. Even as a slip joint, one could expect a much higher cost considering the number of parts involved, as opposed to the one piece Mule Team.

sal

Sal,

This is surprising to me. To my uneducated eye, having disassembled liner locks, compression locks, axis locks, and lock backs, lock backs _seem_ to be the simplest of the bunch.

I'm curious if you'd be willing to share what makes lock-backs especially complicated. And what lock type do you think is the simplest/easiest to assemble/"get right"?

Thanks!
Seth

Hi Seth,

Taking them apart is a lot different than building them. Lock-backs done properly are very close tolerance and don't have the "self adjustment" of many other locks like Linerlocks or Compression locks or ball bearing locks.

In my opinion, and I've thought hard and long on this, is to make Slip-joint Mule Teams, but it is really is a large undertaking. It's kind of like setting up a custom shop; lots of prep that is different than what we're now doing, and frankly, right now we're peddling as fast as we can just trying to get what we can to you.

sal

Thanks for the clarification, makes total sense! And thank you for doing lock-backs so well. As my signature implies, it's very much appreciated. :-)

[Fireman]

A peasant folder could be a fun project

[standy99]

A peasant folder could be a fun project

Talk about killing a mule

Probably better on a cheaper blank than a mule.

[defenestrate]

even if Spyderco could somehow build these kits to be solid without either completely revamping production processes and likely doing assembly and then disassembly to ensure decent action, they'd still be selling kits to a general public who would find the assembly process very difficult and discouraging - you think the small variations in action are a big deal? try taking the job from people with years or possibly decades of experience and giving it to people who were hoping to save 50 bucks on a folder - and my money is on more like 10 bucks saved IF the scales aren't well-finished. We're talking abuot taking access to the mules away from a sizable portion of people who for the first time in history can try a range of exotic steels for a pittance to mostly just people that can afford to buy full-priced knives easily. One set of handles and a sheath and someone can go from modest folders by lower-tier makers and try these steels often for as low as 50 bucks (not counting the crazy cheap 9Cr18MoV scales which mine were good but unless it would be possible to try RPM-9 or one of few other Chinese-engineered steels it just can't happen again, and maybe shouldn't based on the QC issues). There's never been an opportunity like this, because no company has ever put out so many steels and had top brass so interested as to want to launch such a project with afis as a testbed. We are quite lucky to be in the spot we're in, I don't think that making things much more expensive and complicated would benefit the customers or Spyderco.

In a sizable portion of places that restrict fixed blades, that restriction either carries over to folders as well or can me mitigated by open carrying it and having a legitimate reason for doing so, when i suspect that vastly more testing occurs at home anyway, where restrictions are much less common. Anyway, just had to add all that.

TomAiello, I understand the principle and I agree in principle but I think that actually doing this would either sour or completely kill the mule project.

[TomAiello]

TomAiello, I understand the principle and I agree in principle but I think that actually doing this would either sour or completely kill the mule project.

You mean the idea of doing it at all? Or the idea of using UKPK sprints in various steels as 'folding mules'?

I like the UKPK (or Urban) idea because it's relatively simple, uses existing tooling, and could be pinned so there is no end-user monkeying with the mechanism.

[defenestrate]

You mean the idea of doing it at all? Or the idea of using UKPK sprints in various steels as 'folding mules'?

I like the UKPK (or Urban) idea because it's relatively simple, uses existing tooling, and could be pinned so there is no end-user monkeying with the mechanism.
[/quote]

I love the idea, and would go for both under the right conditions. I would probably prefer a lockback/midlock/whatever but I know the fitting of locksprings and blades by hand for each one would hurt in terms of labor and time.

That goes into my concerns about the application of the idea. Spyderco is sending us a single piece of steel, rolled, cut, heat treated, and ground/polished. No fitting, no mold/machining/fitting/reject costs (as surely a certain portion of handle slabs get chucked rather than approved). The lack of labor/machining/materials costs makes these very attractive for curious tinkerers (I'd put myself in this category) as well as anyone who wants to try new steels without commissioning a pricey custom knife (I am also in this category and hope to eventually start making my own knives, and more hands-on experience is a great teacher). My guess is that Urbans in short runs with exotic steels will easily break 100 bucks (big difference for people who have less disposable income) and the extra costs in both creating a second line of mules but putting the extra labor in them will slow the project, make it more complicated (something Sal has expressed not wanting to do), make it more expensive, and harder to keep up with interesting new steels.

I would recommend trying to modify the fixed blades to create folders, because it doesn't make the project significantly more difficult and expensive, is plausibly done at home, and might lead to some interesting designs. The action and finish are not likely to be competitive but it's kind of a step between making handles and making knives. This seems like a good place to discuss that and there are a number of folks (me included) who would be potentially interested.

I hope that lays things out a little more clearly, and I believe it fits logically well within what we know of the project and the aims of most people participating in it. I am absolutely open to ideas, and if someone has a way to make a usable folder without putting several times the burden on Spyderco, I am very interested. Otherwise, I'd probably prefer the current project to a much more complex and pricey one.

Maybe someone can help work out the exact cutting/mods to make a mule blade fit a particular folder. Being that we'd already be cutting/modding it, that could possibly skip a large portion of the extra cost and effort.

[TomAiello]

Maybe someone can help work out the exact cutting/mods to make a mule blade fit a particular folder. Being that we'd already be cutting/modding it, that could possibly skip a large portion of the extra cost and effort.

I made an AEB-L blade for my Manix 2, and that project is no joke. My blade is nowhere near as smooth and well fitted as the factory one (although I'm still learning with every blade). I'm not at all sure that there will be very many people who would be up for using the mule as a piece of steel to grind into a folder blade. I'm even less sure that the heat treat will survive for everyone who does try.

Honestly, if you wanted to try to make folder blades out of specific steels I think you'd be better off to just order the raw steel and start from there.

[Josh Crutchley]

I made an AEB-L blade for my Manix 2, and that project is no joke. My blade is nowhere near as smooth and well fitted as the factory one (although I'm still learning with every blade). I'm not at all sure that there will be very many people who would be up for using the mule as a piece of steel to grind into a folder blade. I'm even less sure that the heat treat will survive for everyone who does try.

Honestly, if you wanted to try to make folder blades out of specific steels I think you'd be better off to just order the raw steel and start from there.

I agree with you Tom my project to replace a Spin blade has stalled out it's a lot of work to make it to Spyderco quality.

I thought a folding mule would be cool but what's the point? So many people don't even use them now let alone test them against other mules. The fact of the matter is most new steels wind up in a folder before the mule ever gets released. It makes sense from a business perspective, to focus available time on higher margin product. The Native 5 and PM2-3 seem to get every new steel anyway so again what would a folding mule do they don't?

[TomAiello]

The Native 5 and PM2-3 seem to get every new steel anyway so again what would a folding mule do they don't?

If it was done on the UKPK or Urban platform, it would offer EDC capability for people in a wide range of jurisdictions. Actually using a knife for your normal EDC is a great way to test it in a variety of situations, and compare it against every other knife you've used in the same (EDC) ways.

[Josh Crutchley]

The Native 5 and PM2-3 seem to get every new steel anyway so again what would a folding mule do they don't?

If it was done on the UKPK or Urban platform, it would offer EDC capability for people in a wide range of jurisdictions. Actually using a knife for your normal EDC is a great way to test it in a variety of situations, and compare it against every other knife you've used in the same (EDC) ways.

Ok I get your point, I don't even feel comfortable leaving the house with my mule and it's legal here. The UKPK could use some more steel options!!

[Paraguy]

Hi Fireman,

This topic has been discussed a number of times, but we always blank out. We recognize that folders would be more convenient for the "tester", but folders have all sorts of their own challenges. The only folder that we could even consider would be a slip joint. Locks are very complicated and dangerous if not assembled correctly. This is especially true of lock-backs and the potential liability issues are too great. Even as a slip joint, one could expect a much higher cost considering the number of parts involved, as opposed to the one piece Mule Team.

sal

What about the ball-bearing lock? The axis lock does not require very high tolerances to be safe and functional as opposed to a compression or an integral lock or even a back lock. Could this also be true for the ball-bearing lock seeing as it's a very similar concept?

[JRinFL]

Spyderco is not in the knife kit business, nor are they in the “losing money” business. We should count ourselves lucky Sal even dreamed up the Mule Team project and made it happen, twice!

[ykspydiefan]

Some things are best left unchanged. I sure benefit from the Mule Team and I would be sad to see it disappear.

[Araignee]

Okay, instead of selling kits, what about selling just the blade ?
Ideally made for the UKPK, given the consensus is for a slip-joint Mule.

No assemble-it-yourself kit, here. It would be like selling a car part - anyone can buy it, but if you don't go to a garage and try to install it yourself instead, you could void the warranty and wouldn't be able to sue the manufacturer.

I know Spyderco doesn't sell separate parts, but this would fall under the Mule category.