Mule Team Subscription maybe?

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notfixingit
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Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#1

Post by notfixingit »

Ok so maybe a horrible idea, maybe not... How about a Mule Team Subscription? Yearly fee that makes you a "Mule Team Member" or something, that just entitles you to be able to reserve/pay for a Mule Team before it's released? This would allow Spyderco to know which runs should have a higher production count and guarantee an enthusiast like myself gets the models they want (or all of them in my case). Granted Spyderco would have to guarantee x amount of models per year (maybe 2?) to make paying worth it. One other though could be Mule Team members could vote for limited runs of past models that they missed out on or just want a second one as a spare, this could take the place in years where 2 new versions are not possible, and yes there would have to be enough votes/pre-orders from members to make it worth it. Also might help ward off the ebay jerks.

Just a thought I had today, curious what everyone thinks!

PS membership thing could be expanded for higher fee to include other knife sprint runs?
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- Tom aka NotFixingIT
yablanowitz
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#2

Post by yablanowitz »

It would add complexity to a program that Sal wants to keep simple. The other major problem is the lead time on these is usually a couple of years.
TomAiello
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#3

Post by TomAiello »

What if the subscription price was higher than the drop price, by a sufficient amount to pay for administrative overhead of managing the subscriptions? I'd gladly pay $25 extra (and pay well in advance) to guarantee that I'd get one.
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sal
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#4

Post by sal »

Hi Notfixingit,

If I understand the goal is to get some type of assurance that you can get one or two? Ideally, we would have one or two pieces for everyone that wanted one. Adding more "time" to the project is not preferred. As Jack said, I like to keep things simple. We keep listening to those that are interested in being involved in the project and I'm sure we'll refine the process over time. I don't know of any other company that has ventured into such a project with steels and public, so it' kind of a new thing.

sal
notfixingit
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#5

Post by notfixingit »

sal wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:02 pm
Hi Notfixingit,

If I understand the goal is to get some type of assurance that you can get one or two? Ideally, we would have one or two pieces for everyone that wanted one. Adding more "time" to the project is not preferred. As Jack said, I like to keep things simple. We keep listening to those that are interested in being involved in the project and I'm sure we'll refine the process over time. I don't know of any other company that has ventured into such a project with steels and public, so it' kind of a new thing.

sal

Yeah, it simply comes down to making sure those that really want it are able to get one, it sucks to miss out, only to see a ton on ebay a few days later for 3-5 times the original. For me, I work nights, so when they are released its 3 hours or so after I should be in bed and I've missed two of the last three because of this.

Not trying to knock anything, I love that you guys are doing this. I'm just tossing around ideas on how it might be improved, if that's even possible.
----------------------------------------------------
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WilliamMunny
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#6

Post by WilliamMunny »

sal wrote:
Sat Jun 12, 2021 11:02 pm
Hi Notfixingit,

If I understand the goal is to get some type of assurance that you can get one or two? Ideally, we would have one or two pieces for everyone that wanted one. Adding more "time" to the project is not preferred. As Jack said, I like to keep things simple. We keep listening to those that are interested in being involved in the project and I'm sure we'll refine the process over time. I don't know of any other company that has ventured into such a project with steels and public, so it' kind of a new thing.

sal
I like having the heads up on releases in this forum. It gives us some heads up vs random people. It is almost like a mule club.

Definitely appreciate this program. I should get my first Mule, z-max, tomorrow. I have two other Spyderco knives, one in AUS-8 and the other in S30V. It will be interesting to see how they compare. My next goals are to get a a-wear mule and a MagnaCut Mule if it is released.
Endura AUS-8, Manix 2 S30V, Alcyone BD1N, PM2 Micarta Cruwear, Native 5 Maxamet (2nd), Para 3 Maxamet (2nd), Magnacut Mule, Z-Wear Mule, BBB 15V Manix 2, REC PM3 10V Satin, Dragonfly Salt 2, GB2 M4.
Knivesofaspyder
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#7

Post by Knivesofaspyder »

Perhaps they could do a staggered release which would help alleviate timezone issues and even lessen strain on the website. This way no matter where you are in the world there should be a release time that's suitable for you.

For example something like releasing a quarter of the batch at a time every 8 hours throughout a 24 hour period.

I don't think this would be a large effort to implement but I'm also not familiar with the backend setup of the website. Perhaps a Spyderco team member can chime in on if this is feasible.
PBWilson
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#8

Post by PBWilson »

What about putting down a deposit ahead of time? If you were in, maybe you could order yours the day before it was open to the rest of the public.

Maybe it would be a pain and extra work to deal with. Just putting it out there.
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Bolster
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#9

Post by Bolster »

I'd also like to see a method where the loyal die-hards have a chance to pre-order. The current method seems to benefit a lot of scalpers. But that's just self-interest talking.

Mark me down as a die-hard who wasn't able to get in his order on a Z-Max...missed out this go around. But eBay tells me that a lotta scalpers got theirs...
Last edited by Bolster on Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
JRinFL
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#10

Post by JRinFL »

We've all had similar good ideas on how to handle the Mule releases, however it comes down to Spyderco being punished with increased costs, more time spent, more hassle, just for trying to do something nice for the community. "No good deed goes unpunished" is the idiom, so very true so very often.

Flippers exist because there is a market made up of willing buyers. The buyers are the issue and you know who you are. It just like the "war on drugs", doomed to failure because the market's desires will be fulfilled.

For myself, I would be willing to pre-pay even 2 years in advance for Mules I am interested in. It's bad that it adds to the hassle for Spyderco.
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
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Bolster
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#11

Post by Bolster »

JRinFL wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:13 am
For myself, I would be willing to pre-pay even 2 years in advance for Mules I am interested in. It's bad that it adds to the hassle for Spyderco.

Me too... it's difficult to imagine scalpers fronting the money, since their goal is a quick profit...
TomAiello
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#12

Post by TomAiello »

PBWilson wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:11 am
What about putting down a deposit ahead of time? If you were in, maybe you could order yours the day before it was open to the rest of the public.

Maybe it would be a pain and extra work to deal with. Just putting it out there.
It would certainly be extra work for Spyderco to deal with it that way. I wonder if making the pre-orders cost more to compensate for the extra work would be enough?
ykspydiefan
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#13

Post by ykspydiefan »

But what does one do if there is a subscription, and then you do not make it on the subscription list? At least this way there is a chance of snagging a mule on the drop. I have been lucky recently and I am trying to stay positive about it. Greater production numbers are coming in the future so I have even more to be positive about.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
TomAiello
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#14

Post by TomAiello »

ykspydiefan wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:07 pm
But what does one do if there is a subscription, and then you do not make it on the subscription list?
If the subscription is done before the materials are purchased (so 2+ years in advance, I'd bet) there is no need to limit the subscription list. Spyderco could just buy more materials to meet all the (pre-paid) demand.
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Bolster
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#15

Post by Bolster »

Good point ^ Tom.

A long-leadtime pre-payment would reduce some of the guesswork and risk for Spyderco on how many mules to produce. And it would discourage scalpers who would not be inclined to wait months or a year to flip their Mule for an easy-sleazy profit.

Y'all realize that as Spyderco makes MORE mules, and getting them is easy, then human nature is to stop buying them because they're plentiful. It's happened before. So "more mules" is not necessarily the only answer to the problem, as it would likely reduce interest in Muleism to some degree. As you all know, it's already happened. Recent history, some Mules languished without sales, leading to the previous termination of the Mule program.

I bet money-in-hand a year before the mule is produced, would compensate for additional bookkeeping. 600 mules x $75 each = $45,000. What's the interest on $45K over a year? Should yield at least $3K in interest; you can buy someone to keep a list for a fraction of that amount. Alternately, it could pay for the steel they're buying up front, as Tom pointed out; they'd not need to wait until mules sold to recoup their investment.

Neither would you have to sell ALL mules pre-payment. For those that really really want a mule, they'd prepay. Everyone else could take their chances on sale day. That might satisfy both true-blue die-hards (like Yablanowitz!) and scalpers alike.

Since it's likely the die-hards who are buying the scalper-flipper Mules at 400% prices (I have had to resist the temptation to buy at scalper prices myself), such a method should serve to reduce the crazy markup prices, since the true-blue-spyderco-bug-tattoo folks would have already locked in their Mule purchases ahead of time.

It's a reasonable proposal, Sal! Please give it some consideration. Mules to those who love them; not to scalpers who flip them...!
notfixingit
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#16

Post by notfixingit »

Bolster wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 5:23 pm
Good point ^ Tom.

A long-leadtime pre-payment would reduce some of the guesswork and risk for Spyderco on how many mules to produce. And it would discourage scalpers who would not be inclined to wait months or a year to flip their Mule for an easy-sleazy profit.

Y'all realize that as Spyderco makes MORE mules, and getting them is easy, then human nature is to stop buying them because they're plentiful. It's happened before. So "more mules" is not necessarily the only answer to the problem, as it would likely reduce interest in Muleism to some degree. As you all know, it's already happened. Recent history, some Mules languished without sales, leading to the previous termination of the Mule program.

I bet money-in-hand a year before the mule is produced, would compensate for additional bookkeeping. 600 mules x $75 each = $45,000. What's the interest on $45K over a year? Should yield at least $3K in interest; you can buy someone to keep a list for a fraction of that amount. Alternately, it could pay for the steel they're buying up front, as Tom pointed out; they'd not need to wait until mules sold to recoup their investment.

Neither would you have to sell ALL mules pre-payment. For those that really really want a mule, they'd prepay. Everyone else could take their chances on sale day. That might satisfy both true-blue die-hards (like Yablanowitz!) and scalpers alike.

Since it's likely the die-hards who are buying the scalper-flipper Mules at 400% prices (I have had to resist the temptation to buy at scalper prices myself), such a method should serve to reduce the crazy markup prices, since the true-blue-spyderco-bug-tattoo folks would have already locked in their Mule purchases ahead of time.

It's a reasonable proposal, Sal! Please give it some consideration. Mules to those who love them; not to scalpers who flip them...!
I would happily prepay 6 months, not so sure about 2 years though lol

Even if nothing changes, I'm glad my idea has sparked so many ideas, hopefully it will continue and we find one that helps us without adding unwanted complications to the Mule program!
----------------------------------------------------
Spyderco and Tops enthusiast
Obsessed with DLC Cruwear for some reason
Knives, Guns, and Watches, yes please

- Tom aka NotFixingIT
ykspydiefan
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#17

Post by ykspydiefan »

Good points ^ Bolster. And, I agree. If I could get on a subscription list, I would pay ahead to play. I have been loving the Mules, making handles and cutting stuff. It has been very inspiring.

The Mule Team has been so inspiring that it has shifted a fundamental paradigm in my mind. For me, apps have always been a tasty thing to eat before the main course. My paradigm shift is into the computer world and trying to work with the re-sizer app so I can post some of my own Mule efforts.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
Big_Don
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#18

Post by Big_Don »

Agree with Tom and Notfixingit, would make demand numbers easier to moderate, give upfront cash for the materials, and I would have no problem paying that far in advance if it guaranteed me every mule without worrying about drop days. Absolutely love the mule program so not complaining by any means, I just want them all!
Michael Janich
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#19

Post by Michael Janich »

Dear Big_Don:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike
yablanowitz
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Re: Mule Team Subscription maybe?

#20

Post by yablanowitz »

A couple of things to consider on the long-term prepay.

1) How is Sal supposed to set a price for a Mule before the steel is purchased and shipped, machining costs are known, and heat treatment requirements have been worked out?

2) What is the IRS going to say about all that money being collected and banked for a couple of years? Do you really believe they would collect enough in interest to cover the tax burden it would create?

As JRinFL said, "No good deed goes unpunished".
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