Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

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Knivesofaspyder
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Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#1

Post by Knivesofaspyder »

Hi everyone, I am new to the Mule scene (been on the forums for a couple of months now) and managed to snag a Z-Max Mule earlier this week. I'm planning on building my own scales for it once it arrives and have decided on G10 as the handle material. I'm curious what thickness most people start with when making their handles. I understand the end result is totally dependent on user preference and hand size but would like some recommendations none the less.

I've picked out 1/4" G10 with 1/32" liners which makes the total handle thickness (tang included) roughly 11/16". On a ruler this seems fairly thin although it seems about on point with the factory Halpern scales. Should I just buy a sheet of 3/8" G10 or will I just end up grinding most of the extra thickness away?

Thanks in advance everyone!
TomAiello
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#2

Post by TomAiello »

I always start with 3/8" and sand down from there, to give me room to create contours and '3d' shaping.

I also frequently add liners, so I end up with an initial pre-sanding width above 3/8".

I do sometimes move down to 1/4" when I know I'm going to have a lot of liner material (several stripes, for example). But in general I prefer to have more material, and then shape and sand by hand down to where I want it.

Are you planning to do flat scales (in which case I'd go with 1/4") or do some contouring (in which case I'd start with 3/8")?
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standy99
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#3

Post by standy99 »

You had me beat at 1/32..... how many millimetres is that :confused:

But yes start thick, you can even throw in another liner or two to what you have and make it colourful....
Im a vegetarian as technically cows are made of grass and water.
TomAiello
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#4

Post by TomAiello »

standy99 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:12 pm
You had me beat at 1/32..... how many millimetres is that :confused:
.79mm. ;)
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standy99
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#5

Post by standy99 »

TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:31 pm
standy99 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:12 pm
You had me beat at 1/32..... how many millimetres is that :confused:
.79mm. ;)
So 1mm equates to 1/32 or .79 :D :D great system you have there....... ;)
Im a vegetarian as technically cows are made of grass and water.
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Bolster
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#6

Post by Bolster »

Just helped a friend make a knife yesterday. He's a big guy and he thought a .9" (23mm) thick handle felt good so that's what we made. I can hardly hang onto the thing. I prefer a knife that's about .5" (13mm) thick in the handle. I go for .2" (5mm) scales on either side.

I also find a bit (1-2mm) of spine exposed all around the handle helps my grip & orientation (twist resistance, like a keel on a boat). Lotta people don't like an exposed spine. To each his own!

EDIT: On the knives that feel best to me, I can touch my ring (and sometimes middle) fingers to my palm while loosely holding the knife.
Knivesofaspyder
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#7

Post by Knivesofaspyder »

That's for the input everyone! It seems like it's largely going to be dependent on how much contouring I do. I have fairly average sized hands though so maybe starting small might not be too bad? But on the other hand starting thicker gives me more room for error.

Unfortunately even though we use the metric system in Canada a lot of hardware items are still posted in imperial measurements haha.
yablanowitz
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#8

Post by yablanowitz »

Starting with thicker material makes it less likely that you will accidentally grind clear through while you are shaping. Like standy99 said, you can add extra liners to make the whole thicker, but you probably don't want the liner exposed on the face of the scale.
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BearShark44
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#9

Post by BearShark44 »

Good thread, I'm in the same boat years later - I have my first Mule (MT33P, CPM REX 76) and hope to get one more. Time to build handles. Appreciate this commentary on handle width.

What about material? I've heard G10 and CF are both fiberglass like, sanding can be dangerous (obvi need mask, gloves, etc.), but don't have a full blown shop with air vac, etc.

Would laminated wood or micarta be the best materials to start with?
I might be able to rent router and belt sander from our tool library in town, but first go may be more hand tools/rasps.
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#10

Post by TomAiello »

If you are sanding G-10 or Micarta, or _especially_ carbon fiber, you are going to generate a lot of really small, noxious particles that will really screw with your respiratory system. I'd use a good breath mask and also a good air filtration setup (I like to have a separate shop vac attached to each sander).

If you are doing your first set, I'd go with something simple like wood, and either go with a good hardwood or a stabilized wood. Be aware that ebony sands up a super fine black dust, so unless you want to look like a coal miner, I'd skip that one for now. If I was doing a set of simple wood scales and wanted them to last (but not be stabilized or laminated) I'd probably go with ironwood. You can get ironwood scale sets at Woodcraft or similar places for less than $15 (https://www.woodcraft.com/products/iron ... le-2-piece) and they look great when you're done, don't need stabilizing (or finish/varnish) and will last very well. I've done several kitchen knives with straight ironwood scales and they are still going strong.

If you want something more 'high tech' feeling, TeroTuf has a similar look and feel to Micarta, but is supposed to have less toxic components.

If you are a totally brand new, you might consider just practicing by roughing out some scales in balsa wood or bass wood (not gluing them to the knife) to get a feel for your tools. That was how I practiced grinding blades, and it really helped me a lot.

For a breath mask, I'm a fan of the envo mask, which my wife bought me (https://envomask.com). It has replaceable filters that both filter well and can be thrown away once they're too dirty.

Whatever you do, have fun and enjoy the ride. It's a slippery slope. I started where you are, and now have vacuum chambers for stabilizing my own wood, a vacuum press for making kydex sheaths, and have spent way too much time grinding away at pieces of metal. I'm guessing I'll be buying an oven to do my own heat treat next...
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RustyIron
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#11

Post by RustyIron »

BearShark44 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:33 pm
I've heard G10 and CF are both fiberglass like, sanding can be dangerous

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over that. Some people actually go out and build things; others like to hide in dark caves and yell that it's too dangerous outside. You'll be fine, ESPECIALLY if you're just using hand tools. It's not like you're cooking fentanyl or breeding coronavirus in a lab.

BearShark44 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:33 pm
Would laminated wood or micarta be the best materials to start with?

Ahdunno. Did Michelangelo prefer paint or did he like marble? I've never worked with micarta, but I've toyed with the idea a lot. I might buy another Mule that I don't need, just so I can try my hand at making micarta.

I enjoy working with wood. You might want to try it because it's something with which you might already be familiar. Also, you can buy gorgeous wood blanks rather inexpensively.

Here's a picture of a Mule that's sitting here next to where I'm sitting. The width is 0.715". I made the scales extra thick, and then sanded them down after they were installed on the blade. For me, it seems easier to get things to fit if I first install the scales on the knife, and THEN finish them.

P.S.
The handle in the picture is a super hard tropical wood that grew in my yard. It smells sort of chocolatey when you work it. It's poisonous if you breathe it. The woodworker who did some work in my house said that he did a big project using it, and didn't feel well that evening. I think he's still alive, buy maybe not.



IMG_0153.jpeg
mokele
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#12

Post by mokele »

I got some very nice slabs of micarta. Since you guys mentioned liners, are there any practical points using them? I am not planning to glue scales to the knife, will just unscrew them to clean blood and fat if it gets under while butchering
TTFulltimer
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#13

Post by TTFulltimer »

I am not going to pick out any given comments on safety. I can tell you that any particle that is 20 microns in size is a lung cancer irritant The cilli cannot move it, and the mucous does not carry it out. Asbestos is no more dangerous, than glass, or coal, or stone, or berylium, or mica, or any other inorganic compound at particle size 20 microns. Flour could be but it breaks down in the lungs. Wood of course will also break down.

Epoxy dust is just not something you want to breath in. There is some noxious crap in the amine portion of the mix.

If you are going to make fine dust, just grab a 10 cent mask. I am about the most risk taking person you will ever meet. When I sand either I am collecting the dust, have the wind or the fan output carrying the dust away, or I put a covering over my nose and mouth.
Just a crotchety old curmudgeon who has seen a thing or two
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JoviAl
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#14

Post by JoviAl »

RustyIron wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:55 pm
BearShark44 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:33 pm
I've heard G10 and CF are both fiberglass like, sanding can be dangerous

I wouldn't get too bent out of shape over that. Some people actually go out and build things; others like to hide in dark caves and yell that it's too dangerous outside. You'll be fine, ESPECIALLY if you're just using hand tools. It's not like you're cooking fentanyl or breeding coronavirus in a lab.

BearShark44 wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:33 pm
Would laminated wood or micarta be the best materials to start with?

Ahdunno. Did Michelangelo prefer paint or did he like marble? I've never worked with micarta, but I've toyed with the idea a lot. I might buy another Mule that I don't need, just so I can try my hand at making micarta.

I enjoy working with wood. You might want to try it because it's something with which you might already be familiar. Also, you can buy gorgeous wood blanks rather inexpensively.

Here's a picture of a Mule that's sitting here next to where I'm sitting. The width is 0.715". I made the scales extra thick, and then sanded them down after they were installed on the blade. For me, it seems easier to get things to fit if I first install the scales on the knife, and THEN finish them.

P.S.
The handle in the picture is a super hard tropical wood that grew in my yard. It smells sort of chocolatey when you work it. It's poisonous if you breathe it. The woodworker who did some work in my house said that he did a big project using it, and didn't feel well that evening. I think he's still alive, buy maybe not.




IMG_0153.jpeg
That is a handsome looking handle. Did you use wooden dowels for pins or simply glue it? (I can’t see any pins/bolts in the pic). I have considered using a CNC router to shave the blade sides of the micarta scales I’m making currently so they fill alternating holes in the tang, but if you know a more cunning method I’m all ears.

I wonder if the wood you’ve got is Tembusu - it puts out a warm almost chocolatey/bbq sauce aroma when I cut it with a chainsaw and it is a mega hard tropical wood (local nickname is Ironwood).
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TomAiello
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#15

Post by TomAiello »

mokele wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:12 pm
I got some very nice slabs of micarta. Since you guys mentioned liners, are there any practical points using them? I am not planning to glue scales to the knife, will just unscrew them to clean blood and fat if it gets under while butchering
You don't really need liners with micarta. If you want to put a liner on them for looks, I'd use thin g-10 in a color that will contrast with your micarta well. I use them for all my wood scales as well as multi-piece scales to provide a solid back. When I do, I use G-10 and glue it with West G-Flex (https://knifemaking.com/products/we6508 ... b673&_ss=r) which is a marine epoxy.

If I'm using multiple pieces (either to layer or to make different pieces of the show side) I tend to glue each joint separately (so if I have multiple pieces I glue them one step at a time) because I've had some bad experiences with slippage when I tried to put too many pieces together at once. That's probably overkill, but it got frustrating enough that I just started doing that to save repeat gluing.

I've also used the vulcanized paper liners, which really soak up epoxy, so I feel like they will adhere better, although I've never had problems with any material if I rough it up properly before gluing. The vulcanized paper stuff is cheap, but it doesn't sand very nicely at all--you tend to get fibers sticking off and you have to carefully go through and make sure everything is smooth.
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legOFwhat?
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#16

Post by legOFwhat? »

mokele wrote:
Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:12 pm
I got some very nice slabs of micarta. Since you guys mentioned liners, are there any practical points using them? I am not planning to glue scales to the knife, will just unscrew them to clean blood and fat if it gets under while butchering
I love using liners just for contrast and appearance, sometimes just to make a mule match a folder.
Image
Here are some I've done in GITD.
Image
-Larry
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bob-atlatl
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#17

Post by bob-atlatl »

Larry: really like'n the vibrant colors in your mule projects - inspiring.

OP: also give natural wood a consideration, I like to try new types, will be using olive wood for the first time on a SPY27 mule.
the olive wood version will get a lot of use in the kitchen.
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bobartig
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#18

Post by bobartig »

The Halpern scales are 1/4" at their thickest point, and taper off in every direction. I find them to be quite comfortable. If you added 1/32" liners underneath, I think you are still landing in a good place.
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RustyIron
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#19

Post by RustyIron »

JoviAl wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:18 am
That is a handsome looking handle. Did you use wooden dowels for pins or simply glue it?

but if you know a more cunning method I’m all ears.

I used locating dowels, as you might use for aligning machine parts, such as transmission cases on an automobile. A screw with the head cut off would work just fine, perhaps better. Get some stainless screws and chop them off so they're shorter than the thickness of the blade plus the intended thickness of your scales.

Since the scales are not yet finished to size, it's easy to drill them perfectly. Using the Mule blade to locate where you're going to drill the holes in the scales, drill the first one, but not very deep. The hole needs to be shallower than the finished thickness of the scale. Extra depth doesn't strengthen it substantially. You don't want to be finish sanding the outside of the scale, and break through to the hole that you drilled too deep. After the first hole is drilled, stick a dowel in it to hold the blade/scale together. Drill the second hole, then add another locating pin. Then drill the next hole. If I described it well, you'll see how easy it is. Then do the other scale.

Once your done drilling the locating holes, you can stick pins in the holes to hold the scales together, making it easier to finish the ricasso-sides symmetrically. Next step is gluing it all together. I've been using Loctite AA 326. I don't have a lot of experience with this product, but it intrigues me so I've been experimenting with it. My expectation is that the blade will rust into the ground before the epoxy fails.

Now you have a knife blade with big clunky scales that don't fit. I've found a hand rasp to be pretty good for taking off a lot of wood quickly. A disc sander is great for bringing the sides down to size. When the fit is getting closer, I use a rotary rasp or rotary file chucked up in my mill. A drill press would also work fine. Your high school shop teacher might blow his stack, but we're not in high school. Be careful not to jam your hand into a spinning tool. Try to hold the blade in a way that if you fail miserably, it doesn't fling around and hit you edge-first. It's also a good idea to tape up the edge while working on it. You can run the rotary file/grindstone right up to the metal. You'll feel it, so you won't be taking off any metal, but your wood will be finished exactly to fit the blade. After you get the shape where you want it, finish it up with hand tools.


JoviAl wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:18 am
I wonder if the wood you’ve got is Tembusu - it puts out a warm almost chocolatey/bbq sauce aroma when I cut it with a chainsaw and it is a mega hard tropical wood (local nickname is Ironwood).

The stuff I'm using is tabebuia. It's also described as an "ironwood." It's fun to work with.
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RustyIron
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Re: Homemade Mule Scale Recommendations

#20

Post by RustyIron »

legOFwhat? wrote:
Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:33 am
I love using liners just for contrast and appearance, sometimes just to make a mule match a folder.

Those are pretty.

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