Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#81

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Fireman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 11:30 am
Inquiring minds want to know. Do we get to know the catra test results? :) Thanks!
I'd love to know too!
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#82

Post by FullScaler »

I would love to know too. This seems like it could make an amazing ultra lightweight backpacking knife. But, I would like to know more about its real world performance before I get too excited.
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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#83

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

FullScaler wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:58 pm
I would love to know too. This seems like it could make an amazing ultra lightweight backpacking knife. But, I would like to know more about its real world performance before I get too excited.
If you want to try, we sell them starting at 53 Swiss Francs, ~60USD, but the price of shipping to the US for such a relatively inexpensive knife might be a dealbreaker for you. Link to our shop in the video description of the video below. You probably have seen this, but if not, it maybe also at least partially answers your questions: https://youtu.be/zhjU2pWO0Ns

Now that Sal is interested, we (myself and my partner company Rahven) hope to soon see our elastic ceramic in at least Mules and thus easier accessible for you guys across the big pond. And I got several other ideas which I proposed to Sal.

Off topic: The "Aqua Salt" diving knife would be also a great platform for the elastic HIC ceramic. Yes, serrations are possible (we tried bread knife serrations so far) but I see no reason why the Spyder Edge patented serrations wouldn't work.
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Fireman
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#84

Post by Fireman »

Elastic ceramic serrations are intriguing.
my 2cents… I can see this material making its way into a few of Spyderco’s lines like you mentioned. I will be happy if I can get a mule to match my knife that I already purchased and maybe a hollow ground folder.
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#85

Post by Fireman »

Roman, have you done testing on a convex edge vs a V edge yet? Not that the HIC needs to cut more but strengthening the edge for lateral forces to prevent chipping?
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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#86

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Fireman wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 8:03 pm
Roman, have you done testing on a convex edge vs a V edge yet? Not that the HIC needs to cut more but strengthening the edge for lateral forces to prevent chipping?
Yes, I have tested it over the weekend and I like the V-edge much better than the convex edge we currently ship on the elastic ceramic knives. I am glad I didn't do the sharpening tutorial yet, because this adds many additional options besides lapping films. I am waiting for a new sharpening system (Tsprof) and Venev diamond stones I ordered to do even more testing. So far, the V edge from practical sharpening copper bound CBN stones and vitrified diamond stones were nice, but my current sharpening systems (Wicked Edge) and magnetic HAP sharpener did not yield the results I wanted. So I only tested freehand sharpening, which will always result in a somewhat convex edge, albeit much less than the diamond lapping films on foam. The wicked edge electroplated diamond stones are "meh" for the HIC and since the elastic ceramic is non magnetic, my magnetic HAP sharpener won't work. Therefore, I ordered the tsprof, to investigate a "true" V-edge. Should arrive by the end of the week. I will report my findings and eventually compile everything in a sharpening tutorial video.
Last edited by KKnives_Switzerland on Tue Jun 22, 2021 4:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#87

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Maybe someone or myself will start a dedicated "sharpening elastic ceramic" thread at some point. So we can exchange on the subject.
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sal
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#88

Post by sal »

Hi all,

The CATRA tests were very positive. It performed up there with the super steels. As Roman mentioned, sharpening and re-testing is a current focus.

Hi Roman, I'll get back to you today. It's been a hectic week.

sal
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#89

Post by JRinFL »

Well, this is getting exciting.
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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#90

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Excellent news! Thanks for the info Sal and I'm looking forward to hear back from you.
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#91

Post by Fireman »

Interesting for sure! I hope after the testing we can see the results to place it on the graphs that Dr. Larrin has been so kind to produce. The Cedric and Ada rope test although not as scientific or repeatable as the catra showed double the cuts of the super steels. The real world obviously is not rope and quite different and unique to the user I know so everyone will have different needs. If the HIC is UP (see what I did there) there with the super steels that is still amazing and if it can do it with no corrosion or possibly cheaper than this is a game changer for sure. Correct me if I am wrong, but Roman, are you still tinkering with the recipe of the HIC so that it could possibly cut more or have more toughness? Could there be variants of the HIC or do you want just a single product for simplicity and efficiency?

For those who have not read this before. The catra testing and its methods of cutting paper with silica for getting data points. (Although I like the Cedric and Ada method :D )
Any which way you slice it, this material is a newly proven cutting monster!!!
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/ ... fe-steels/
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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#92

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Fireman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:49 am
Interesting for sure! I hope after the testing we can see the results to place it on the graphs that Dr. Larrin has been so kind to produce. The Cedric and Ada rope test although not as scientific or repeatable as the catra showed double the cuts of the super steels. The real world obviously is not rope and quite different and unique to the user I know so everyone will have different needs. If the HIC is UP (see what I did there) there with the super steels that is still amazing and if it can do it with no corrosion or possibly cheaper than this is a game changer for sure. Correct me if I am wrong, but Roman, are you still tinkering with the recipe of the HIC so that it could possibly cut more or have more toughness? Could there be variants of the HIC or do you want just a single product for simplicity and efficiency?
From what I have seen in CATRA we did ourselves, it really is UP there ;) . But we would need confirmation from Sal before I'm leaning myself out of a window here. As a side note: rope cutting has proven to correlate quite well with CATRA, if big carbide steels like D2 are excluded. Because lateral force and such. But I digress. I have a STRONG feeling about Sal's CATRA results and hope that he will share it. But even if his values put it somewhat less "up there", like you said there are many other ground breaking things about the elastic HIC ceramic.

Regarding your other question: lots of tinkering going on. ;) While my focus was mostly on steel in the past, I nowadays indeed do a fair bit of research on non ferrous blade materials like the HIC. Some great stuff ahead, I can tell you that much. But it will be in the more distant future I think. ...Okay what I can reveal is that there exists a white version of the HIC. It is significantly harder than the black one, it would be around 80 Rockwell C if converted from Vickers to Rockwell C, but the Rockwell C scale stops at 70HRC so that 80 HRC value is a very hypothetic one. The crazy thing though is that the white elastic ceramic has exactly the same toughness and flexibility values like the black one, despite it being much harder!! Absolutely wild stuff. The only "catch" for many people (I think at least) could be an aesthetic one which is that it is white, not that beautiful pitch black. I am currently testing it for knife applications. 2021 surely packs some interesting (knife) materials, that's for sure.
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#93

Post by N. Brian Huegel »

How does HIC edge retention and sharpness compare to Kyocera zirconia ceramics, both standard and HIP?

https://uk.kyocera.com/products/kitchen ... eries.html

https://uk.kyocera.com/products/kitchen ... eries.html
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#94

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

N. Brian Huegel wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:54 am
How does HIC edge retention and sharpness compare to Kyocera zirconia ceramics, both standard and HIP?

https://uk.kyocera.com/products/kitchen ... eries.html

https://uk.kyocera.com/products/kitchen ... eries.html
Pete did an excellent video (see below) regarding edge retention, regarding sharpness the elastic ceramic seems to have an edge up - I say "seems" because comparing sharpness is a rabbit hole.
Comparison video: https://youtu.be/M_Y7UnUuF5k
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#95

Post by Fireman »

OK. You just did it now. Now we have to have a black and white ceramic mule if Sal will let us :D

Some of my random thoughts…It seems like this is the infancy of the HIC ceramic. Looks like we have a lot more yet to see. Sal said, “The edge is a ghost.”And ghost chasers like myself don’t care if that ghost is black or white. I am curious about the toughness. If there can be a super tough version of the HIC that will still keep up there with the likes of a super steals I think that would be the sweet spot for most. Maybe Spyderco could give some input into the specific properties they’re looking for to make sort of a SPY27 or Spyderco ordered derivative of the HIC? The wise Sal is obviously worried about the capacity to sharpen it so if there could be a reliably tough, relatively sharpen-able and still cuts like a super steel HIC that would be pretty sweet. I am already sold on the HIC and already have one on order (I need more patience, I am chomping at the bit.)
Go mule team!
I think we need a thread to see the demand for a mule.
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KKnives_Switzerland
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#96

Post by KKnives_Switzerland »

Fireman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 1:36 pm
OK. You just did it now. Now we have to have a black and white ceramic mule if Sal will let us :D

Some of my random thoughts…It seems like this is the infancy of the HIC ceramic. Looks like we have a lot more yet to see. Sal said, “The edge is a ghost.”And ghost chasers like myself don’t care if that ghost is black or white. I am curious about the toughness. If there can be a super tough version of the HIC that will still keep up there with the likes of a super steals I think that would be the sweet spot for most. Maybe Spyderco could give some input into the specific properties they’re looking for to make sort of a SPY27 or Spyderco ordered derivative of the HIC? The wise Sal is obviously worried about the capacity to sharpen it so if there could be a reliably tough, relatively sharpen-able and still cuts like a super steel HIC that would be pretty sweet. I am already sold on the HIC and already have one on order (I need more patience, I am chomping at the bit.)
Go mule team!
I think we need a thread to see the demand for a mule.
Lots of possibilities. One step at a time though. Sharpening is much easier than thought, the more I investigate. Stay tuned.
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Fireman
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#97

Post by Fireman »

Lol! yes, one step at a time. Just looking down the road and the possibilities. The material science part of this is fascinating.
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#98

Post by Woodpuppy »

How would a material like this work in a locking folder? Would there be too much compression of the material to be secure in a lock?
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#99

Post by 00max00 »

I don't think it is surprising that ceramic out-cuts steel. I am more interested in a toughness test. How much side load it could take before breaking, and how it is compared to steels. Ceramic is known for micro-chipping, would like to see if that's the case here.
Last edited by 00max00 on Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Elastic Ceramic. Wow!

#100

Post by TomAiello »

I'd also be interested in some side loading tests.

I think that the elastic ceramic is supposed to fix the chipping problems of traditional ceramics, but I haven't seen any data on it. Hopefully I can abuse mine when they get here and post some results. :)
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