Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

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Bolster
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Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#1

Post by Bolster »

Here’s a mule modified for lightweight backpacking. The index finger radius was reduced for comfort, the handle slimmed, the end bobbed & a middle oval ground. All edges heavily chamfered, then the handle was stonewashed (you can just see the two-tone difference between the matte handle and as-original blade), and the thumb area jimped. The skeletonized knife has a pleasant, almost buttery hand-feel although the thumb jimping is sharp; could be cord wrapped in the field for heavy use. However, if a trip goes as planned, knife use is minimal, so a ‘bare bones’ knife should work fine for 90% of backpacking use.

Weight was reduced from 2.8 to 2.4 oz, a 15% reduction. May not sound like much, but a 15% lowered weight sells ultralight backpacking gear! What I’m most happy about is the blade-for-weight ratio. It is in the same range as the lightweight Salts and the Bugout…except…it has a full tang and can therefore be used much harder!

Next up: Find a kydexer who can make me a lightweight sheath…suggestions?

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Last edited by Bolster on Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#2

Post by Bolster »

Easier to see the mods with a comparison:

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ykspydiefan
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#3

Post by ykspydiefan »

Nice work. I am a big fan of the jimping. Super nice seeing a %15 weight reduction. I know light weight trippers will take off zipper pulls and just pinch grip the closure, saves weight. I like when the knife hobby makes outdoor pursuits more fulfilling. Cutting fish with the Waterway makes me smile. You are certainly checking the "create," box in the Mule Team banner.
Spyderco: Tenacious G10, Waterway, Para 3 Spy27, Pacific Salt H1, In the Mule Team Stable(Z-Max, Z-Wear, S45VN, Magnacut, SRS13/SUS405, M398, Aeb-l, 15v)
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#4

Post by austrian_spyder_fan »

Looks very nice.
What about sandblasting the handle to get more grip?
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#5

Post by yablanowitz »

Kydex is pretty easy to work. Buy a couple of sheets and try it. It's a lot easier than what you did to the knife.
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Xplorer
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#6

Post by Xplorer »

Looks great! I love the way the jimping turned out. Am I seeing correctly that you beveled the sides of the jimping?

As for Kydex..super easy for you. I seriously suggest you should do it yourself and you'll be happy that you will forever have the ability to make yourself a sheath any time, for any knife...in about an hour.

Get a sheet of Kydex or Holstex (I think it's only about $5.00 for 12x12) and get 1 piece of molding foam (11.5" x 11.5" is about $13.00). You can order grommets too but if you don't want to get a grommet setting tool (and don't already have one) you can just drill holes and use sex-bolt type fasteners that are about $1 a piece. In total you can make your own for as little as $22 plus shipping. But if you can spend the extra $10-$15 get a grommet setting tool and some grommets. All of this is available at USA Knifemaker.com and a bunch of other knife supply sources.

Cut the foam in half length-wise, so you have 2 pieces roughly 11.5" x 5.75". This is big enough for most sheaths you'll want to make. Then, sandwich the foam between 2 boards (1"x6"x12") in a bench vise and you're ready to mold a sheath.
Here's an example of the same type of quick and easy set-up...in this case I was making some blue-jean micarta but it's the same simple boards and vise idea.
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Or...if you're feeling ambitious...one of the first tools I ever made myself as I started making Mule handles (prior to ever making my own knives) was a kydex press. I made it for free (other than the foam) because I had all of the materials laying around the garage. My point is, that if you decide you want to make a press you can do that as well..

Here's a couple of pictures in case you decide to make one.
It's only these 4 pieces plus 2 door hinges. (the wood in the picture is 3/4" plywood glued double thick so it's 1.5" thick)
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A couple of large lag bolts hold the back down to the base and it provids a place to mount the hinges.
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As you can see, it's not sexy...but it flat works.
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Here's the first sheath I ever made with it..(back in 2015)
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It was all kinds of crappy, but I didn't think so at the time..I was stoked to have made a sheath at all.

These are the last 2 sheaths I made on that press (about 10 days ago). One was Holstex for the scuba rig and the other was leather. I use the press to wet-mold leather to the knife prior to making the leather sheath so that is has a permanent custom fitted shape before I add oil to soften the leather.
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To heat your kydex/holstex a toaster oven is a perfect solution, but if you don't have one, a regular oven works great too. Heat the oven to 400F and when you see the whitish edges (from cutting) flow to the same color as the rest of the material, it's ready to mold (about 90 sec - 2 minutes in the oven).

I'll give you the rest of the detailed instructions to help you through the little fitment issues and ways to do drain holes and other minutia if you decide you want to take on the project yourself. Just let me know.

Best regards,
CK
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
TomAiello
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#7

Post by TomAiello »

That's a really nice looking Mule modification. :)

Xplorer, I'd love to hear your detailed instructions on kydex. Fitment issues are a continuing problem for me.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#8

Post by Xplorer »

Bolster wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:34 pm
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I just wanted to bring a pic of this nice looking modified Mule down further. I didn't mean to hijack the topic with my kydex suggestion.
TomAiello wrote: That's a really nice looking Mule modification. :)

Xplorer, I'd love to hear your detailed instructions on kydex. Fitment issues are a continuing problem for me.
For someone that is already doing Kydex it would be easier if you tell me what you're having trouble with specifically and I'll offer my best suggestion for addressing that issue.

But, to offer a starting point here's some tips..

Basically if you have a problem fitting kydex it's either too loose or too tight. Let's examine the causes of each.

Too loose -
1. The knife wiggles and rattles in the sheath....
A. Most likely either the kydex was not hot enough or pressure was not applied quickly enough and therefor too much cooling is allowed to occur prior to molding. This results in a shape that is not as detailed and does not conform to the edges and contours of the knife crisply. Solution is to increase oven temp or soak time depending on the temp and soak time you were using...or (very important) get the pressure applied to the hot kydex faster. As fast as possible. I set up my oven directly above my press so that I can make that transition as fast as I can. Even though I have my temp, soak time and process all dialed in now, sometimes I struggle with placing the knife in exactly the right place quickly enough and end up having to re-heat and re-do. When this happens to me it's almost always with folded sheaths, as it can be a PITA to get the spine exactly where you want it and line up the drain hole quickly enough.
B. Too much tape was used on the blade or handle during the molding step. The solution is obvious.

2. The knife pulls out of the sheath too easily...lacks enough retention.
A. The placement of the top eyelet or grommet is critical for retention. If it is placed too low it will allow the kydex to flex too easily at the retention / flex point. This is not so much a fitment issue as it is a design/engineering issue.
B. The amount of kydex that wraps around the grip point on the knife/handle will change how hard it is to insert and remove the knife. Too little material won't hold the knife securely enough, too much makes the knife hard to insert into the sheath. Each knife is different in this regard and some provide a better natural gripping point than others. Again this is not so much a fitment issue as it is a design issue.

Too tight -
1. It's hard to insert the knife and there's a lot of friction removing the knife.
A. No tape on the blade while molding can result in such a "perfect fit" that it leaves no room for movement at all. This generally results in "great" retention but makes it hard to use the sheath. It also results in debris getting jammed between the blade and the kydex, eventually in-bedding itself in the kydex, and then sheath scratches the blade every time you use it. Solution is to use 1 or 2 layers of clear packing tape or similar on the blade to add slightly to it's thickness, but be careful not to use too much. **IMPORTANT** take your time and cut and place the tape carefully. Bring it right up to the back edge of the ricasso but not onto the handle at all. No tape is needed on the handle as that will just result in a rattling knife and reduce retention needlessly. You may need to experiment with the thickness of tape you have in order to decide if you prefer 1 layer each side, 2 layers on one side and 1 on the other, or 2 layers on both sides. I vary my choice a little depending on the knife but I generally use either 2 pieces on both sides or 1 on one side and 2 on the other. I have also use blue masking tape successfully but again you have to experiment with whatever thickness you use at first in order to know how much is just right.
B. The top eyelet is too high and not allowing the kydex to flex to the appropriate degree upon entry and exit. This is a design issue.

2. Can't get the knife out of the sheath without pulling dangerously hard.
A. Like above, the top eyelet may be too high. With some knife designs it's possible that it could also be too close to the handle and interfering with the blade.
B. There is too much kydex surrounding the handle near the flex point and some more trimming or sanding/shaping is needed.

These are the most common issues that come to mind, but if you have any specific concerns that I did not address let me know and I'll do my best to help you.

Best regards,
CK
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#9

Post by JRinFL »

Bolster wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:34 pm
Here’s a mule modified for lightweight backpacking. ...
Very nice mod, well done! The only thing I could add is to make it straight spine to shave a few more grams off.
"...it costs nothing to be polite." - Winston Churchill
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Bolster
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#10

Post by Bolster »

Hello Spyderheads...got crushed with work so haven't checked in recently...

Austrian: I would like to try a sandblasted handle...maybe on the next one, eh?

Yab & Xplorer: Yes! I need to learn Kydex. Inspired now. Wow, thanks for the most excellent tutorial, X! This is great! I hope other folks can find your post that's buried in this thread. I'm going to add Kydex to the title so people can search & find...

JR: Straight spine...good idea. Had not occurred to me. This mod tries to stay somewhat true to Sal's vision but the next mod might maybe should involve some weight reduction on the blade itself...bold!

One issue I was paranoid about, during the mod, was heat. Had a laser thermo out a lot. At highest temp (cutting the pinkie tip off) I used my 4.5" cutoff grinder in a chop saw jig, bit by bit, and sponging between grinds, but I did record a temp going up to 106F and when I placed my finger on the cut itself I pulled my finger back quickly, was hot. The offcut bit had turned a sort of titanium-brown color. I don't have a way to wet-sand the blade OR a way to test if I've messed up the hardness afterward, so I'd definitely do a blade mod with caution. Part of the issue here is just gaining confidence as to what's doable. But a blade mod is a heckuva good idea.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking + Kydex Tutorial

#11

Post by TomAiello »

Xplorer, I really appreciate the time you put into posting this stuff. If you had a blog or Patreon, I'd definitely contribute to an effort to get your tutorial type materials on line. They're really invaluable for those of us following years behind your path. Thanks!
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking + Kydex Tutorial

#12

Post by Xplorer »

TomAiello wrote: Xplorer, I really appreciate the time you put into posting this stuff. If you had a blog or Patreon, I'd definitely contribute to an effort to get your tutorial type materials on line. They're really invaluable for those of us following years behind your path. Thanks!
That's really nice of you Tom. I like to help if I can (free of charge :p ), partly because I know how hard it can be to build knives and knife related things, but mostly because I'm grateful for the generous help other knife makers have given me and want to follow their example.

Here's an example that speaks to how helpful some people in the knife making community have been to me and why I feel like theirs' is the example to follow....

There was a point while I was working to complete my back-lock prototype when I was struggling with tapping the titanium. I was breaking taps, wasting pieces of 6/4 Ti and worse, wasting time...lots of time. I needed help. While there may be lots of people and places I could have turned to for advice on tapping titanium, I thought why not reach for the stars, and first see if one of the greatest knife makers living today might be willing to help me :cool: . I mean, worst case he just ignores me right? :o So I sent a message to Michael Walker (inventor of the liner-lock..master of the zipper blade..THAT Michael Walker) and asked if he might be willing to offer any advice. He got back to me that day and explained every detail, helped me with what I was doing wrong, explained how he does it, what I should feel for, where he gets his taps, everything! Two days later my new parts arrived and with the new knowledge that I had been gifted with I was a titanium tappin' fool and happy as can be that i could finish my knife and I had taken one more significant step along my journey! :D ..thanks to the generosity of a genuinely great knife maker who was willing to take the time to help me. (If you don't know what a "zipper blade" is stop reading this and go Google "Michael Walker Zipper Blade" right now!! :D )

Here's the actual parts I was making at the time, that once completed allowed me to complete my knife..thanks entirely to the great Michael Walker :cool: :) .
The blue threaded inserts were way harder to make than I ever thought they'd be. (I only anodized them to illustrate that they are Ti in photos. They are completely hidden once installed in the knife.)
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The blind tapped holes for the 2 Ti screws that hold the pocket clip went from frustrating to piece of cake. :)
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As well, when I met Gayle Bradley (who is one of my favorite makers) I had at least 50 questions, and he talked with me for a solid 45 minutes and answered every question I had...graciously and in detail.

In fact, the very moment the thought of making my own knives occurred to me (and hit me like a 10-ton epiphany), was in the middle of a conversation I was having with Peter Carey. At that time I had just started making Mule handles and upon meeting him at a knife show I asked him a question about how he worked out the geometry of the flipping action on the Rubicon. As he openly explained his process, something about the way he was describing it made me realize we were a lot alike. At that moment (it literally was like my whole life flashed before my eyes) I realized I had spent that past 30 years buying and collecting knives while building anything from wood furniture to race cars.. that I wasn't collecting.. Why am I not just building the knives I want in the first place? (my brain nearly exploded with that thought and I seriously felt embarrassed that it took me this long to figure it out :o ) Had Pete not taken the time to answer an unknown fan's questions I may very well have never taken that first step into knife making that has eventually become an enormous and rewarding part of my life.

I am blessed to be able to say I can bore you with a bunch more examples like this and that's the whole point.
If legendary and famous knife makers like these can take their time to share their hard-earned knowledge with a totally unknown knife maker like me, then what kind of person would I be if I were NOT willing to share the comparatively tiny bit of knowledge I have for anyone that may benefit from it? :) Being able to help is an honor and a privilege. :)

If you let me know when there's something I can help you learn to make, I'll do my best to help if I can.
CK
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
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Bolster
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking + Kydex Tutorial

#13

Post by Bolster »

That's ^ a really interesting post, X. Sounds like you have a natural ability with tools, and then have been able to figure out what you need to know. I'm envious of your knowledge of how to work with difficult metals. And also small parts, which can be just excruciatingly difficult to make or mod. My background is via aluminum, of all things, so EVERYthing about hardened steel seems difficult and obtuse. I surely wish I could see your shop someday. Thanks again for the guidance.

PS: Plus, a pocket clip with no visible screws is pretty nifty, too!
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#14

Post by Tucson Tom »

Hey Xplorer!

Thanks so much for taking the time to explain all of this in detail, give photos, and beyond that encouragement!!!

The knife mods too are very impressive. I'm not sure just what kind of tooling (carbide?) I would need to drill, and then to shape hardened steel like you have done, but I am certainly impressed. This is one of those threads this deserves several careful rereadings.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#15

Post by Bolster »

Tucson Tom wrote:
Tue Mar 23, 2021 6:20 pm
I'm not sure just what kind of tooling (carbide?) I would need to drill, and then to shape hardened steel like you have done...

You certainly could drill holes in hardened steel with carbide-tipped (inexpensive), or full carbide (expensive & fragile) bits. Some folks just use cobalt bits. I didn't drill any holes, I just ground the oval between existing holes. I used a small cutoff wheel in a Foredom (like a Dremel) to get most of the steel out between the two existing holes, and then I ground the edges smooth with a grinding bit designed for stainless steel (Zirconia Ceramic not Aluminum Oxide). I got mine from McMaster-Carr. I did my grinding on a hobby mill for precision, but the grinding could be done by hand; I've seen similar knife tang grinds in hardened steel done by hand. They're not quite as clean and precise but they are completely servicable.

The grinding operations were considerably cooler than I'd expected. All the same, I did use a lubricant and ground slowly with passes of around .010 each.

For the reshaping of the handle profile, that was done with a belt grinder (like a belt sander) at a low speed, a new sharp coarse grit Zirconia Ceramic belt (runs cooler), and wax as a lubricant. Remember not to grind stainless steel with any wheel, bit, or belt that's been used for ferrous materials or you'll contaminate the SS and potentially get rust on your SS knife. Keep all your SS grinding tools separate!
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Xplorer
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#16

Post by Xplorer »

I agree with Bolster that grinding is the way to go if you want to take away a lot of hardened steel. Grinding with wheels, belts or files are all preferable over other methods once steel is hard.
Milling with carbide will work but high spindle speed is needed if you plan to remove much material.
Drilling is the hardest to do in hardened steel and carbide would be needed for that too. Cobalt drills will skate and or burn themselves up on hardened steel. Cobalt is great for all drilling applications prior to heat treating as they will last longer than HSS. Make sure they're sharp though. Cheap Harbor Freight cobalt drills are often so dull they're unusable. Most machine tool outlets online sell good quality cobalt "jobbers" individually. Stocking a few of each of the few sizes you actually use is the way to go. Cobalt is also great for straight flute chucking reamers.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#17

Post by Rp5 »

That looks really clean Bolster, good job. I always feel nervous about modding stuff, but that turned out really well.
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#18

Post by ArnAnders89 »

Xplorer wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:05 pm
Looks great! I love the way the jimping turned out. Am I seeing correctly that you beveled the sides of the jimping?

As for Kydex..super easy for you. I seriously suggest you should do it yourself and you'll be happy that you will forever have the ability to make yourself a sheath any time, for any knife...in about an hour.

Get a sheet of Kydex or Holstex (I think it's only about $5.00 for 12x12) and get 1 piece of molding foam (11.5" x 11.5" is about $13.00). You can order grommets too but if you don't want to get a grommet setting tool (and don't already have one) you can just drill holes and use sex-bolt type fasteners that are about $1 a piece. In total you can make your own for as little as $22 plus shipping. But if you can spend the extra $10-$15 get a grommet setting tool and some grommets. All of this is available at USA Knifemaker.com and a bunch of other knife supply sources.

Cut the foam in half length-wise, so you have 2 pieces roughly 11.5" x 5.75". This is big enough for most sheaths you'll want to make. Then, sandwich the foam between 2 boards (1"x6"x12") in a bench vise and you're ready to mold a sheath.
Here's an example of the same type of quick and easy set-up...in this case I was making some blue-jean micarta but it's the same simple boards and vise idea.
Image

Or...if you're feeling ambitious...one of the first tools I ever made myself as I started making Mule handles (prior to ever making my own knives) was a kydex press. I made it for free (other than the foam) because I had all of the materials laying around the garage. My point is, that if you decide you want to make a press you can do that as well..

Here's a couple of pictures in case you decide to make one.
It's only these 4 pieces plus 2 door hinges. (the wood in the picture is 3/4" plywood glued double thick so it's 1.5" thick)
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A couple of large lag bolts hold the back down to the base and it provids a place to mount the hinges.
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As you can see, it's not sexy...but it flat works.
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Here's the first sheath I ever made with it..(back in 2015)
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It was all kinds of crappy, but I didn't think so at the time..I was stoked to have made a sheath at all.

These are the last 2 sheaths I made on that press (about 10 days ago). One was Holstex for the scuba rig and the other was leather. I use the press to wet-mold leather to the knife prior to making the leather sheath so that is has a permanent custom fitted shape before I add oil to soften the leather.
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To heat your kydex/holstex a toaster oven is a perfect solution, but if you don't have one, a regular oven works great too. Heat the oven to 400F and when you see the whitish edges (from cutting) flow to the same color as the rest of the material, it's ready to mold (about 90 sec - 2 minutes in the oven).

I'll give you the rest of the detailed instructions to help you through the little fitment issues and ways to do drain holes and other minutia if you decide you want to take on the project yourself. Just let me know.

Best regards,
CK

How did you do those tube rivets on the knife in the picture of your first sheath?

Thanks for the info! Pure gold man.
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Xplorer
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#19

Post by Xplorer »

ArnAnders89 wrote:
Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:19 pm

How did you do those tube rivets on the knife in the picture of your first sheath?

Thanks for the info! Pure gold man.
:D That was where it all started for me. That was the first knife handle I ever made. I've been stuck in my garage ever since :p .

Those are just large copper tubes with fairly thick walls. I should have flared those or at least rounded them with sandpaper :eek: :o . I used one large corby to hold the scales against the tang and the 2 copper tubes are epoxied into place to provide lateral support.

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Eventually I decided there were things about the way I built that first handle that bothered me so I cut those scales off and rebuilt it. This is how it looks today.
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Those are also just lanyard tubes. 1/4" stainless tubing this time.
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Best regards,
Chad
:spyder: Spyderco fan and collector since 1991. :spyder:
Father of 2, nature explorer, custom knife maker.
@ckc_knifemaker on Instagram.
ArnAnders89
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Re: Skeletonized Mule for Backpacking

#20

Post by ArnAnders89 »

[quote=Xplorer post_id=1531158 time=1623105893 user_id

:D That was where it all started for me. That was the first knife handle I ever made. I've been stuck in my garage ever since :p .

Those are just large copper tubes with fairly thick walls. I should have flared those or at least rounded them with sandpaper :eek: :o . I used one large corby to hold the scales against the tang and the 2 copper tubes are epoxied into place to provide lateral support.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image


Eventually I decided there were things about the way I built that first handle that bothered me so I cut those scales off and rebuilt it. This is how it looks today.
Image

Those are also just lanyard tubes. 1/4" stainless tubing this time.
Image

Best regards,
Chad
[/quote]

That’s sweet man! Exactly what I want to do with my first mule is those stainless tube rivets! (picked up the s45vn last drop) I’ve been trying to think of a way to flare them without an arbor press, any ideas there would be greatly appreciated!

Oh and you got me inspired to build my own kydex press! I’ve been on the fence about it but have wanted to for a while now, I was also looking into how to make leather sheaths and that wet molded leather looks pretty nice I’m going to study up on that to!

Thanks a ton man, not just for the information but also the inspiration 👏👍🔥👊💯
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