Mule Team quantity discussion

[potahto]

Wow! The Spyderco community, and the leadership, is simply incredible. Happy Valentine's Day!

[Peter1960]

Unfortunately the shipping costs from the SFO in USA to Europe make buying individual mules rather unattractive. So I think that this discussion should rather be held within the US and I will not participate in it.

I sincerely hope that Spyderco will set up a branch in the EU in the foreseeable future, on the one hand for service and warranty cases and on the other hand for factory sales.

[The Meat man]

I like the idea of a pre-sale, announced on this Forum, where people would have a month or so to place an order with the understanding that it could be months or even a year before they get their knife. I'd be 100% down with that. It would give Spyderco an estimate of how many knives to make, so they could easier avoid both dead stock and upset customers. It would also guarantee us Forumites the chance to get one regardless of time or geographic location.

I'd also be interested in the idea of a Mule Team Club where, like the Collector's Club, members automatically get each Mule. Or two.

Even though I only bought one SPY27 Mule I'd still like the limit to be no less than two, for reasons already given above.

I also think it should be kept SFO exclusive, and I wouldn't be opposed to a modest price increase if that would be necessary.

As a late comer to Spyderco and the Mule Team, I can't thank you enough Sal for reviving the project!

[sal]

Hi All,

Thanx for your participation.

Some additional thoughts on things like pre-sell or clubs, much of the demand has come from new people coming into the Spyderco world. If we pre-sell, the new people that will come in after the steel has been ordered will increase demand that we cannot predict?

Also, we don't know how much the run will cost us to build, so we can't know how much to charge? Price is based on production costs. Some steels are more difficult to turn into a knife. Some steels are more expensive to purchase or the price changes? Shipping, tariffs, etc. are also variables.

Different foundries have different production schedules so the time from order to delivery can vary quite a bit. eg: I worked on the K390 project for a long time before we decided to run with it. ( in house testing, Mule Team build, teaching and working with our vendor to work with the steel, etc. ) There was even a customer that wanted to do, as an exclusive, the very project that I had been working on for years. Then we found out it would be 10 months before they would begin the next pour. Whodathunk?

Some steels are more in demand, even though little may be known about the steel. I thought about doing a Damasteel Mule. Demand would be high because of the "kit" value, probably even more so than the performance value?

The first Damascus (Takefu) sold quickly for the "look". K390 sold quickly for the "cut". 9Cr18MoV sold out quickly because of the low price.

I think it's pretty obvious that we'll have to re-make some like the SPY27, and probably Z-Max, Bu what about those steels for which we know nothing?

sal

[sal]

Unfortunately the shipping costs from the SFO in USA to Europe make buying individual mules rather unattractive. So I think that this discussion should rather be held within the US and I will not participate in it.

I sincerely hope that Spyderco will set up a branch in the EU in the foreseeable future, on the one hand for service and warranty cases and on the other hand for factory sales.

Hi Peter,

We've tried this a number of times with poor results each time. ( Belgium and Netherlands). Hiring and training people to be able to QC properly was a disaster, much less repairs. Laws regarding hiring and firing in different countries can be daunting. The cost of maintaining a facility ends up raising the price of product, etc.

sal

[TomAiello]

What if you did small runs to test demand, and then announced re-runs for the ones that sell well enough to justify them?

That way you could test demand, then re-run to meet it (and continue to re-run as necessary). The knowledge that re-runs would eventually happen for fast sellers would reduce the frantic rush to buy them when they drop, and also reduce the eBay flipping.

I'm not sure on the costs and pre-sale, but I personally would trust Spyderco to bill me $50 for the pre-sale and then charge me the additional cost (within reason, of course) at the time of delivery. I'd have no problem putting in $50 for presale and then having to come up with another $50 at delivery, for example.

[RustyIron]

We thought it might sell faster than the last one (years to go), but we did run out. We don't know how many we should have made. It's just a guess.

Well, Sal. If you ever figure out the formula whereby you can manufacture exactly the number of knives to meet customer demand, you'll have discovered the holy grail sought by every manufacturer since the... beginning of manufacturing. You'll be able to quit your day job and finally order that Gulfstream G700 that you've been eyeballing.

To answer the question, I think the current method works ok. I'm not going to order a year in advance, or even place a deposit. Most of my knife buys are impulses, and if it takes too long to deliver, I'll lose interest.

[eonbluemantra]

I’ll throw my support behind keeping the current format.

[gdwtvb]

I personally would trust Spyderco to bill me $50 for the pre-sale and then charge me the additional cost (within reason, of course) at the time of delivery. I'd have no problem putting in $50 for presale and then having to come up with another $50 at delivery, for example.

That is admirable on your part. I work in a retail environment, I am sad to say that you are very much a minority in your feelings. Retail workers appreciate people like you, Thank-You! I have to deal with people that buy a cellphone, refuse to buy the insurance, drop and break it a week later and then expect to be able to exchange it for a brand new phone at no cost to them...regularly. It would be a nightmare to presell products without a firm final price.

Grizz

[LanM]

Hi All,

Thanx for your participation.

Some additional thoughts on things like pre-sell or clubs, much of the demand has come from new people coming into the Spyderco world. If we pre-sell, the new people that will come in after the steel has been ordered will increase demand that we cannot predict?

Also, we don't know how much the run will cost us to build, so we can't know how much to charge? Price is based on production costs. Some steels are more difficult to turn into a knife. Some steels are more expensive to purchase or the price changes? Shipping, tariffs, etc. are also variables.

Different foundries have different production schedules so the time from order to delivery can vary quite a bit. eg: I worked on the K390 project for a long time before we decided to run with it. ( in house testing, Mule Team build, teaching and working with our vendor to work with the steel, etc. ) There was even a customer that wanted to do, as an exclusive, the very project that I had been working on for years. Then we found out it would be 10 months before they would begin the next pour. Whodathunk?

Some steels are more in demand, even though little may be known about the steel. I thought about doing a Damasteel Mule. Demand would be high because of the "kit" value, probably even more so than the performance value?

The first Damascus (Takefu) sold quickly for the "look". K390 sold quickly for the "cut". 9Cr18MoV sold out quickly because of the low price.

I think it's pretty obvious that we'll have to re-make some like the SPY27, and probably Z-Max, Bu what about those steels for which we know nothing?

sal

Definitely some legitimate logistic concerns. I also agree with some mules being more converted for the exclusivity of the steel vs performance.

1) For newcomers, I can speak as one since my 1st Spydie was purchased 12/16/2020. Would I like to be able to pick up older mules? Yup. Do I care that much that I’m late to the game-nope. Big boys don’t cry over things they can’t change, and not being able to get older short production models in no way will change the way I view the company nor will it impact my decision to buy any products. This might be contrary on its face to my earlier statement regarding mules as a vehicle for exposure to new steel options, but newcomers already have the benefit of the collective experience of everyone else and likely have multiple options in said older mule steel—so that’s covered. What I can do is participate from this point forward.


I’d support a flat up front rate with the rider that prices might change according to unforeseen production cost variables and that you guys will do your best to amortize the cost equally. Trust is part of the equation here, and we all know what something costs today might be different tomorrow.

I think the longest open order window (to let as many participate in the project as reasonably possible) coupled with transparency regarding cost variables is about as reasonable as you could hope to be.

Kits and higher end exclusives would be cool too. Whatever works, keep em coming, let us buy em.

[WilliamMunny]

Hi All,

Thanx for your participation.

Some additional thoughts on things like pre-sell or clubs, much of the demand has come from new people coming into the Spyderco world. If we pre-sell, the new people that will come in after the steel has been ordered will increase demand that we cannot predict?

Also, we don't know how much the run will cost us to build, so we can't know how much to charge? Price is based on production costs. Some steels are more difficult to turn into a knife. Some steels are more expensive to purchase or the price changes? Shipping, tariffs, etc. are also variables.

Different foundries have different production schedules so the time from order to delivery can vary quite a bit. eg: I worked on the K390 project for a long time before we decided to run with it. ( in house testing, Mule Team build, teaching and working with our vendor to work with the steel, etc. ) There was even a customer that wanted to do, as an exclusive, the very project that I had been working on for years. Then we found out it would be 10 months before they would begin the next pour. Whodathunk?

Some steels are more in demand, even though little may be known about the steel. I thought about doing a Damasteel Mule. Demand would be high because of the "kit" value, probably even more so than the performance value?

The first Damascus (Takefu) sold quickly for the "look". K390 sold quickly for the "cut". 9Cr18MoV sold out quickly because of the low price.

I think it's pretty obvious that we'll have to re-make some like the SPY27, and probably Z-Max, Bu what about those steels for which we know nothing?

sal

Sal,

Never forget you have run 26 successful Mule Team sales. People are happy and satisfied or you would still not have this much demand and anticipation. Make a few more more next run, there have been no Mules in three years, so demand is high.

As for the z-Max run, how ever many you make just make sure you make one extra for me.

[Cl1ff]

I must also be in the minority because supporting Kickstarters is the most rewarding buying experience for me, but I’m open to really any system as long as it doesn’t require “too much” of price increase (including keeping the current way of doing things).
If Spyderco presented the Mules in a way which gets people in the mindset of “pitch in and you’ll help everyone”, I can see a lot of hype and good community coming out of it!
For example, with Kickstarters you have “Stretch goals” after the initial minimum has been met to produce the product. Any extra orders go towards more and more product depending on the total amount pledged.

A “stretch goal” of a Mule pre-sale could be the promise to make another run of that steel?
I’m purely blabbering on about business models which may be completely irrelevant, but its all I’ve got lol

I also like the simpler idea of matching demand by creating multiple runs of those which initially sell quickly. That’s probably easier to do than Spyderco mimicking Kickstarter.

[Peter1960]

Unfortunately the shipping costs from the SFO in USA to Europe make buying individual mules rather unattractive. So I think that this discussion should rather be held within the US and I will not participate in it.

I sincerely hope that Spyderco will set up a branch in the EU in the foreseeable future, on the one hand for service and warranty cases and on the other hand for factory sales.

Hi Peter,

We've tried this a number of times with poor results each time. ( Belgium and Netherlands). Hiring and training people to be able to QC properly was a disaster, much less repairs. Laws regarding hiring and firing in different countries can be daunting. The cost of maintaining a facility ends up raising the price of product, etc.

sal

Hi Sal,

Many thanks for your response, I appreciate this a lot! I'm in the same boat as you are, costs are also my personal point, but from the view of an ELU . At the same time I see your position.

I think you know better than me that guarantie/service/repair is a challange for your customers outside the US-market, as well what SprintRuns and so on concerns. Who am I to give you advise how to run Spydercos business, the only thing I can do is informing you what it makes with me, as I live in the middle of the EU.

Enough said, I don't want beeing off topic ...

Kindest regards - Peter

[Team Sick]

Mule Team Club, Pre-Pay/Pre-Order, #2 max, SFO only.

[Team Sick]

Oh Yea, Thank You Sal and the Spyderco Team for resurrecting the Mule Team Project.

[Edge-UpWI]

Hi All,

Thanx for your participation.

Some additional thoughts on things like pre-sell or clubs, much of the demand has come from new people coming into the Spyderco world. If we pre-sell, the new people that will come in after the steel has been ordered will increase demand that we cannot predict?

Also, we don't know how much the run will cost us to build, so we can't know how much to charge? Price is based on production costs. Some steels are more difficult to turn into a knife. Some steels are more expensive to purchase or the price changes? Shipping, tariffs, etc. are also variables.

Different foundries have different production schedules so the time from order to delivery can vary quite a bit. eg: I worked on the K390 project for a long time before we decided to run with it. ( in house testing, Mule Team build, teaching and working with our vendor to work with the steel, etc. ) There was even a customer that wanted to do, as an exclusive, the very project that I had been working on for years. Then we found out it would be 10 months before they would begin the next pour. Whodathunk?

Some steels are more in demand, even though little may be known about the steel. I thought about doing a Damasteel Mule. Demand would be high because of the "kit" value, probably even more so than the performance value?

The first Damascus (Takefu) sold quickly for the "look". K390 sold quickly for the "cut". 9Cr18MoV sold out quickly because of the low price.

I think it's pretty obvious that we'll have to re-make some like the SPY27, and probably Z-Max, Bu what about those steels for which we know nothing?

sal

I understand the concern around pre-selling and then the price not being high enough, so why not allow people to make a non-refundable deposit at what you think the price will be with the understanding that we may have to pay more to get the knife eventually, with the option to opt out of it’s too much?

[Rinzler]

Some thoughts:

Whatever the cheapest to date mule team consumer cost was, make that the deposit price. However this isn’t exactly a deposit. The consumer would purchase a mule team XX gift card, i.e. mule team gift card 38 would only be applicable toward mule team blade 38 when it releases OR store credit for anything else if the purchaser drops out of wanting to have their “preorder” mule team spot.

This way you can mitigate both the unknown final cost and purchasers who lose interest. If they lose interest or are unable to follow through with the sale then they still have their mule team XX gift card credit that can be used for a delica or whatever, and you don’t have to deal with the hassle of chargebacks and refunds because the buyer already has their store credit gift card (which coincidentally accords them a reserved mule team XX model).

Allow preorders for 90 days starting from each quarterly release - that gives you an opportunity to advertise that the window is open in the release, and preorders for mule team XX gift cards can go on sale at a known time. No mad dashes to hit buy now overloading servers when there’s a big window open for interested parties.

I only buy one example of knives as a rule, but I can understand why some may want two knives. Thus, I support a limit of two.

Factory sales would be my preference. Please don’t commercialize this.

I don’t quite agree with the mule team club idea, nor would I sign up for such a thing. I’m just a regular person who really likes your knives, but not to the point of owning every example.

[sal]

Hi Peter,

Always appreciate everyone's input. Overseas as well as domestic. the goal is an honest one so a solution may take a while to evolve, but persistence is king.

sal

[Bloke]

Mr Glesser, it goes without saying that you do all you can to keep us kooks happy and this thread only bolsters the fact.

All I know with absolute certainty is whatever you decide will be criticised by some. I’m sure you know this better than most anyhow. :)

[standy99]

I would definitely be very happy to join a 'Mule Team' that worked like a collectors club, and got me every single mule (2 of each would be even better). :)

+1

I am in for joining a Mule Team, 2 of each for the next 10 years is Ok with me. Will sign up in a heartbeat.

This way you know at least these will be sold and if you have say 50 people on the Mule Team that’s a guarantee of nearly 100 sold each time.(as some may sign up for only 1)

Maybe garner interest for members who would be up for a Mule Team

TomAiello , legOFwhat? and myself would definitely be the first couple of subscribers

Price is no factor for me as nothing has been over $100 yet and the spread of production gives warning and time.