Mule Team MT28P CPM SPY27 Revealed!

[JRinFL]

We do know that almost all production is slowed due to COVID related requirements. It seems the most likely cause rather than jumping to some other potential technical problem. Only Spyderco knows for sure, of course.

[BaronRadium]

For what its worth, I pre-ordered the Para 3 Lightweight in SPY27 back on March 1st from an online store. They filled as many of their preorders as they could with the small initial batch that they got from Spyderco and have been waiting on a second shipment since the release back in June to fulfill the rest. It may simply be a supply chain issue where raw materials are just not available. That would certainly explain the lack of info and the lag in the reveal schedule.

[Burton Knut]

I’m betting on supply chain issues too because the ManixLW SPY27 and REX45 Chief are just as late and REX45 is, by now, a known variable short of getting it from the foundry.

[cody6268]

This will be my first. It helps immensely that it's right in my sweet spot for fixed blades. I want to take a crack at making my own scales and sheath, but I might as well just go with factory scales and sheath (will probably buy both Boltaron and leather). I am not very skilled in leathercraft and have not done much woodworking outside of light household carpentry. Better to screw up a ten-dollar Green River blank or some old kitchen knife I bought at a thrift store; instead of a $50 knife.

[Rp5]

For what it's worth - I've read it's better to use Boltaron sheaths with non-stainless knives. There's been debate on whether leather sheaths can really rust a knife, but they say leather is more moisture retaining, so I keep my PD1 in a Bolt just to stay on the safe side.

That said, I believe Spy27 is a stainless steel, so you should be fine with either.

[cody6268]

I think that's my own observation as I've learned. I've been told the chemicals in the leather used for tanning and the like cause corrosion and tarnish.


I've actually tested this firsthand. I have a 1970s Camillus Marine Combat Knife. Someone modded the tip on the knife before I got it so that it would be doubled-edged (swedge was sharpened). It was wearing through the factory leather sheath. So, I switched to the hard plastic Kabar sheath. It rusted a bit where the parkerizing had worn off and on the edge once leaving it in my pack, in the leather sheath for a month. No problem after being left that same time in the Kabar a few months later. Leave my Buck 110 in the leather sheath for more than a week, bolsters are tarnished and have green verdigris.

Plus, Kydex/polymer is waterproof, needs no maintenance, and if designed right, offers tons of mounting options with the right add-on hardware.

[Sumdumguy]

I think that's my own observation as I've learned. I've been told the chemicals in the leather used for tanning and the like cause corrosion and tarnish.

Bang on.

This is especially true with exotic hides, because most are chromium tanned. They are only suitable for use where it won't contact steel.

It can do some pretty gnarly things to steel, pretty quickly.(go ahead, ask me how I know :D)

[standy99]

I think that's my own observation as I've learned. I've been told the chemicals in the leather used for tanning and the like cause corrosion and tarnish.


I've actually tested this firsthand. I have a 1970s Camillus Marine Combat Knife. Someone modded the tip on the knife before I got it so that it would be doubled-edged (swedge was sharpened). It was wearing through the factory leather sheath. So, I switched to the hard plastic Kabar sheath. It rusted a bit where the parkerizing had worn off and on the edge once leaving it in my pack, in the leather sheath for a month. No problem after being left that same time in the Kabar a few months later. Leave my Buck 110 in the leather sheath for more than a week, bolsters are tarnished and have green verdigris.

Plus, Kydex/polymer is waterproof, needs no maintenance, and if designed right, offers tons of mounting options with the right add-on hardware.

Think it’s the opposite, now nearly all leather is vegetable tanned it can cause the rust if the knife is stored in the sheath. Thicker leather and not as dry as chrome tanned leather so more moisture when new.
Old style chrome processing was a lot quicker but not as much of a issue with rusting metal bits because it was a lot drier ie wasn’t a 30+ day soak like vegetable tanning.

10-20 years ago mostly 90% of leather was chrome tanned nowadays 70% or more of leather is vegetable tanned.

Vegetable tanned lasts longer doesn’t crack but has to be a lot stiffer and thicker than chrome tanned leather. WAY BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

Information comes from a friend who makes saddles (Australian leather so maybe US leather is a bit different)
((Huge percentage of world leather comes out of Pakistan and India believe it or not))

[williaty]

Think it’s the opposite, now nearly all leather is vegetable tanned it can cause the rust if the knife is stored in the sheath. Thicker leather and not as dry as chrome tanned leather so more moisture when new.
Old style chrome processing was a lot quicker but not as much of a issue with rusting metal bits because it was a lot drier ie wasn’t a 30+ day soak like vegetable tanning.

10-20 years ago mostly 90% of leather was chrome tanned nowadays 70% or more of leather is vegetable tanned.

Vegetable tanned lasts longer doesn’t crack but has to be a lot stiffer and thicker than chrome tanned leather. WAY BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

Information comes from a friend who makes saddles (Australian leather so maybe US leather is a bit different)
((Huge percentage of world leather comes out of Pakistan and India believe it or not))

I am a professional leatherworker in the US. Your information is wrong.

80% of the industrially tanned leather worldwide is chrome tanned because the process can be completed in a single day vs as much as several months for the vegetable tanning process. Chrome tanned leather is usually, though not always, softer than veg tanned leather due to the rotary drum processing effectively tenderizing the leather while it tans vs the dip-and-dunk process of most veg tanning keeping a firmer hand in the leather. There are, of course, exceptions. Milled veg tanned leather is as soft as chrome tanned garment leather and it's possible to make a chrome tan leather with a firm hand. Neither tanning process results in a thicker or thinner leather. Both can be as thin as 2oz (~1mm thick). I haven't seen chrome tanned thicker than about 8oz (~3.5mm) just because the things you typically make out of chrome tanned leather don't need to be any thicker than that. Chrome vs veg also doesn't have any implications for future cracking of the leather. That comes down to the quality of the tannage and proper maintenance by the final owner of the piece. However, many chrome tanned leathers have surface finishes applied to them at the tannery, mostly polyurethane variants, to meet customer specs for gloss and texture. These are extremely common in garment and upholstery leathers. These finishes drastically reduce the lifespan of the leather because they'll fail decades before the leater does. Also, by the time the leather leaves the tanners, both chrome and veg process leathers will be fully dry. There's no moisture content difference between them.

Chrome tanned leathercan cause increased rusting of steel because of the residual chromium salts left in the leather. Laws in the USA and EU require the residual chromium content in leather to be so low it can't cause rust (source: one of Horween's chemists) but if your leather is of unknown origin from outside the USA/EU all bets are off an you should assume it can rust steel rapidly. Veg tanned leather, OTOH, is always safe for steel as it comes from the factory. That last detail is important because a leatherworker could choose to use dies or finishes that aren't steel-safe.

[sal]

Hi Williaty,

Thanx for the great lesson.

So what's the best way to make our leather sheaths best for our blades?

sal

[williaty]

I'm assuming you mean from the position of an end user, not in your personal position as a manufacturer. As a major manufacturer, you have lots of options not available to the rest of us.

So, if you're making a sheath yourself, use veg tan from a USA or EU tannery. The big reason for this is confidence that what you were told you were buying is what ended up on your workbench. Chrome tan overall it's too difficult to sort out what it is, where it came from, and what regulations it was produced within (this is where your personal position as a major manufacturer would allow you to have a run done to your specs). Veg tan from outside the US and EU is good sometimes and not so good sometimes. It's easier to just avoid the issue by paying a few percent more for US/EU leather. If you want the flesh-colored leather look, buy tooling leather from Wicket and Craig, Hermann Oak, Sedgwick, or a Japanese tannery I can't currently remember the name of (the only exception to the US/EU thing). There are hobby shop suppliers in the US that will sell you smaller cuts from those brands in a size suitable for sheath crafting so you don't have to buy a whole peeled cow ($$$). However, there's also some extremely interesting things produced by several Italian tanneries that are dyed and ready to go. Conceria Tempesti Elbamatt is officially a boot leather but it could make a really slick sheath. I have some scarlet that I might just have to make a sheath from now that I've thought about it. Conceria Walpier Buttero is another leather that's extremely nicely finished and available in some nice colors. There's actually an industry association of Italian tanneries doing veg tan work that I wouldn't hesitate to buy from any of their member companies. Finding supply in the US is the trick https://www.pellealvegetale.it/en/associated-tanneries/ Veg tan also allows you to do the traditional tooling and pattern stamping while chrome tan doesn't, so that's another reason to pick veg.

Beyond leather selection, dying and finishing can be concerns. So long as you stick to well-established major industry players, you're not going to run into anything that'll ruin your knife by surprise. Fiebings is one of the biggest names in the industry and all of their stuff is either safe for steel or carries a big flashing warning that it's unsafe. They can't afford the reputational damage of harming a collectible knife or gun. There's certainly other brands too, so talk with the sales staff at where ever you buy supplies. Again, they can't afford to tell you something that'll ruin your knife and their reputation. However, if you want to play it ultra safe, neatsfoot oil produces a very pretty look to bare leather that ages well, helps stave off water damage, and is easy to maintain over the decades. Just swab more neatsfoot oil into it any time it starts looking or feeling dry.

Speaking of water, yes, leather absorbs water like a sponge. If you get your sheath wet, pull the knife out of it and let it dry for 2-3 days somewhere dry and warm but not hot. If, after this, your knife is too tight in the sheath, wrap the knife in several layers of seranwrap, submerge the sheath in luke warm water for about 15 seconds, then put the wrapped knife in the sheath and let it dry for 2-3 days in a warm dry place again. Leather that's been formed and worked with (which is a wet process) doesn't usually shrink again from a casual wetting like rain, but you never know. Wrapping the knife in seranwrap protects the knife from water and also makes the knife a tiny bit bigger so that the shape the sheath dries to is a good fit to the knife.

[Bemo]

This leather info deserves it's own thread. Great stuff!

[standy99]

Think it’s the opposite, now nearly all leather is vegetable tanned it can cause the rust if the knife is stored in the sheath. Thicker leather and not as dry as chrome tanned leather so more moisture when new.
Old style chrome processing was a lot quicker but not as much of a issue with rusting metal bits because it was a lot drier ie wasn’t a 30+ day soak like vegetable tanning.

10-20 years ago mostly 90% of leather was chrome tanned nowadays 70% or more of leather is vegetable tanned.

Vegetable tanned lasts longer doesn’t crack but has to be a lot stiffer and thicker than chrome tanned leather. WAY BETTER FOR THE ENVIRONMENT

Information comes from a friend who makes saddles (Australian leather so maybe US leather is a bit different)
((Huge percentage of world leather comes out of Pakistan and India believe it or not))

I am a professional leatherworker in the US. Your information is wrong.

80% of the industrially tanned leather worldwide is chrome tanned because the process can be completed in a single day vs as much as several months for the vegetable tanning process. Chrome tanned leather is usually, though not always, softer than veg tanned leather due to the rotary drum processing effectively tenderizing the leather while it tans vs the dip-and-dunk process of most veg tanning keeping a firmer hand in the leather. There are, of course, exceptions. Milled veg tanned leather is as soft as chrome tanned garment leather and it's possible to make a chrome tan leather with a firm hand. Neither tanning process results in a thicker or thinner leather. Both can be as thin as 2oz (~1mm thick). I haven't seen chrome tanned thicker than about 8oz (~3.5mm) just because the things you typically make out of chrome tanned leather don't need to be any thicker than that. Chrome vs veg also doesn't have any implications for future cracking of the leather. That comes down to the quality of the tannage and proper maintenance by the final owner of the piece. However, many chrome tanned leathers have surface finishes applied to them at the tannery, mostly polyurethane variants, to meet customer specs for gloss and texture. These are extremely common in garment and upholstery leathers. These finishes drastically reduce the lifespan of the leather because they'll fail decades before the leater does. Also, by the time the leather leaves the tanners, both chrome and veg process leathers will be fully dry. There's no moisture content difference between them.

Chrome tanned leathercan cause increased rusting of steel because of the residual chromium salts left in the leather. Laws in the USA and EU require the residual chromium content in leather to be so low it can't cause rust (source: one of Horween's chemists) but if your leather is of unknown origin from outside the USA/EU all bets are off an you should assume it can rust steel rapidly. Veg tanned leather, OTOH, is always safe for steel as it comes from the factory. That last detail is important because a leatherworker could choose to use dies or finishes that aren't steel-safe.

Do agree with your comments above.

Hence put the Aus v US leather comment in

Australian leather is mostly veg Tanned and agree chrome tanned is the world wide leader.
Australia has moved away from chrome tanning for environmental reasons and it is highly advertised. (Don’t think there are many if any chrome tanning places left in Australia)

Was my mate right in veg tanned leather will hold water longer. When wet.

I’m all in learning.

And have always looked at buying a more environmentally better option hence veg tanned. Last sheaths I had made the maker also mentioned not to store knives in the sheaths if storing for a long time.

Thanks for your knowledge above