Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#141

Post by Bloke »

Luong and Shawn, you’re both most welcome ... and yes Shawn, the handle is a beauty and as comfortable as any I own. :)
Surfingringo wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:29 pm
I was planning to update this thread soon anyway ...
Solid endorsement Gringo and it only makes me want your fillet knife a little more. Ah, hahaha! :)
Xplorer wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:47 pm
Preach my brotha'.. :D ...
Hey Chad, I think “amazing” sums it up well.

Please make a fillet knife identical to Gringo’s but with blue and green scales and send it to me. :p
sal wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:39 pm
We could build anything that we want ...
No doubt, Mr Glesser!

I’m sure anything I may suggest you’ve investigated years ago but if I may I’ll give my Australian layman’s slant on things.

I think perhaps a way to get Vanax SC to the masses may be to offer a variety of fixed blade knives, all from the same stock material. Perhaps a series of “Fish Knives” which may include a bait and fillet knives of different lengths and a series of “Game Knives” which may include a capping/small game knife, skinner/Hunter, etc.

Perhaps all knives in the series would have standard scales, say little knife - big knife which were detachable and offered in all colours G10.

Perhaps these new Vanax SC designs could become the new Stock Horse series that outperform Mules.

Perhaps, ... :rolleyes:

In conclusion, I think as good as Vanax SC may be in a small EDC folder it would be on par with the toughest tool steel known to man in a small folder ... good, but neither steel would shine.

P.S. You’d also have to make a little fixed blade with man size handle and horizontal carry sheath that our good mate Vivi could carry. :)
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#142

Post by Deadboxhero »

I've been using Vanax SC for the past year, I've been trying to make up my mind about it I didn't want to come to any premature conclusions, I wanted to see the full picture. I wanted to see how Vanax holds up with testing and real world use. Not one or the other, I needed to see both.
It took all year, but I've recently come to the conclusion with Chad after lots of EDC use with a custom I got from Chad at Bladeshow West, Also testing a one of my knife blanks with Phil over the summer and reading lots research work and talking to Larrin.
So I'm very proud to have gotten a lot on concrete information on something so I can share my honest opinion.


My conclusion is as of 2018, there is no other steel that can match the balance that Vanax SC can offer.

The only true weaknesses Vanax SC has is cost.

Vanax SC is a balance in it's purest form.

While I'd like to see higher hardess and more MN type hard phase particles.

There is no denying that would reduce the balance. Less toughness for more strength and wear resistance.


I think people need to understand that the only way to get extreme performance is with extreme compromises like Maxamet for instance. Maxamet will cut longer hands down, but will never be as tough, it is more difficult to sharpen and will also rust. The user gets the performance with Maxamet by playing to it's strengths and avoiding it's weaknesses.

Maxamet is a drag racer. It's just pure top speed and raw power that can't be matched by others in a straight line on the drag strip, (except other drag racers like rex121:D)

Vanax SC however is just a great overall, useful, high performance car that you would feel comfortable using and driving everyday. It's a luxury model though so not everyone can have it :D

It's like a crossover SUV/Sedan hybrid with good cargo space, room, and comfort that gets almost as much mileage as a Prius, can almost outrun a Hemi Charger yet can go off road like a rally car.

Vanax SC is like the "Tesla" of the knife steel world :D

Vanax SC fits in as a tougher, more stable, easier to sharpen, easier to fabricate, 3 times more expensive, rustproof Elmax.
Last edited by Deadboxhero on Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#143

Post by Xplorer »

Great analysis as usual Shawn!

The more I use it the more I feel like it's the only steel I want to work with. We're spoiled right now because we get to play with this stuff every day. We have a lot of work to get done to help other people get the same opportunity. :) Your testing and analysis is a helpful contribution. Thank you sir!

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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#144

Post by Bloke »

Xplorer wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:00 pm
Great analysis as usual Shawn!
Ditto! :)
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#145

Post by Deadboxhero »

Well, there is no sense in Sharing without pictures and testing. :D

This is a "one off" from Chad Kelly. (My favorite maker, Shhhh don't tell)

He'll never make a knife with design this thin for everyone. It's quite Extreme but Chad knows what the BBB likes :D

I am a man of extremes and I like to find the limits and dance along the boundaries.

Thin knives require the user to understand and utilize the knife properly and the reward is Extreme cutting performance.

That Extreme trade off for thin geometry is just not for everyone and custom makers know this as well as production companies.

Thin knives are are important for testing however because the steel cannot hide behind thick geometry that can mask the microstructure's stability created by the HT and alloy composition by reinforcement through sheer material bulk.

I've been using this knife in my EDC and it's been a joy.

It's still sharp but I needed to slap a crisp, fresh edge on it for testing.

Vanax SC really lowers the time and skill curve needed to get very sharp.

Chad did an excellent job on the HT. His persistent strive for the details and his meticulous nature shows.

I used special stones but the Vanadium Nitrides are much more cooperative to shape then the Vanadium Carbides. I still feel I get crisper edges with CBN and Diamond abrasive however but that's been my experience over the past year, YMMV. My point is it's much easier to sharpen then any other steel with that much Vanadium alloy due to the Nitrogen rather then the Carbon found in similar higher Carbon, no Nitrogen steels like S30v and Elmax. I'd say it's CLOSE to Lc200n and VG10.

As a maker it's also superior for grinding and finish sanding, it doesn't put up a fight.
Image

Just gets Nasty Keen, the aggression is very subtile, got some stickiness too but my biggest impression is KEEN. Cuts you without feeling it that's Keeness.
Image

I like polish with this steel, I'm rocking a 600 to 3k jump and a 1um strop. In the picture but I'm just showing off.

My day to day EDC edge is more of a 800-1000. I like to have a little more bite for cardboard and plastic.

Chad makes a sexy knife, he has that rare blend of good taste and the Craftsmanship to execute it.

Image

I'm hard on my stuff, so I've scratched the **** out of the beautiful hand pulled 1000 grit finish on the blade but I understand what went into it and I appreciate the blood, sweat and tears it took to create.

Also as a maker I know it's more important for the user to USE the knife. We hate when people don't use them, we put alot of work in them to be used. We like to see scratches to some degree :D

Which brings me to some abusive testing. Its important to see what the limits are.

I use brass because it mimics Extreme conditions found in carving hard wood. I do this by using deep sticking and twisting cuts that a knife is NOT designed to handle to see how it fails.
This Vanac SC Custom has extreme geometry. It's thinner then anything you can buy off the shelf so it's not comparable to the testing I've done with production knives.

There is nothing for Vanax SC to hide behind it only has it's chemistry and heat treatment to rely on.


Image

It broke my heart to torque on such a special knife from a close friend but it's facinating to see the results.

Vanax SC is the most chip proof stainless I've ever used with this much alloy.

There was deformation but that's totally understandable for.this geometry and hardness. Again, Vanax SC is pure balance, if we get it harder it may reduce the shock resistance with raw impact toughness, the brass testing is more of a edge stability test.

I thought it's was also very interesting that Vanax could recover very very well with a fine 3k polishing stone. Most steels especially with higher carbide volume need to be reapexed with a coaser stone to remove micro damage beyond what the eye can see, they just don't come back off the 3k like Vanax SC does In my experience.

Image


After a 1um strop I was rolling curls for days.

Image

Just nasty crisp, very keen. I think the majority folks will enjoy these attributes with day to day use.
Last edited by Deadboxhero on Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#146

Post by Deadboxhero »

sal wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 2:39 pm
We could build anything that we want. The high price of Vanax, difficulty in our getting it (for some reason?) and the new tariffs makes for an expensive piece. With a minimum steel order and minimum processing requires a larger number of knives be made. The high price of the finished product would reduce sales which means we or the exclusive distributor "might" have to sit on slow moving inventory for a long time which is a questionable investment? We'll watch demand on threads like this one.

sal
That's never stopped you guys from making the "impossible" before ;)

If you build it, they will come.

The price will be what it is.

Sounds like the perfect steel for a flash batch :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#147

Post by steelcity16 »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:34 pm

Vanax SC fits in as a tougher, more stable, easier to sharpen, easier to fabricate, 3 times more expensive, rustproof Elmax.

Must...have...Vanax SC Native Salt :eek:
:bug-white-red CRU-CARTA THE SEKI MODELS! :bug-white-red AND BRING US THE DODO-FLY! :bug-white-red
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#148

Post by Deadboxhero »

steelcity16 wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 12:38 am
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:34 pm

Vanax SC fits in as a tougher, more stable, easier to sharpen, easier to fabricate, 3 times more expensive, rustproof Elmax.

Must...have...Vanax SC Native Salt :eek:
Should be called the "Super Salt" so people don't lump it with the other rust proof steels. Also how about a very bright, light blue to set it apart? :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#149

Post by Deadboxhero »

bluntcut wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:53 am
Thanks Shawn. Desert Ironwood often good looking and has excellent stability in service... It seems you mostly use synthetic material for handle, however if you like, next time, when I ship to you something, remind me to include a block of DI.
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 2:55 pm
Thanks for the pics and review Alex.
Wow Luong, that handle is gourgous!
I also agreed with Lance & Chad on vanax has overall outstanding wear resistance+corrosion to other steels at similar hardness and carbide volume%. Stating such because a 64+rc s30v has better edge retention than 61rc vanax.

Vanax high price and [ht hardness profile w/o partial nitrogen pressure] keep this steel in niche knife market.
That would be amazing! I'm still going to ship you something, I've just been backed up on orders. All I want to do is just play with crazy steels and nerd out.

Yeah man, great looking blade, more pictures are appreciated Alex.

You too Lance, I know your holding out :D
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#150

Post by Skidoosh »

What is the difference in performance between Vanax and Vanax SC?
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#151

Post by Xplorer »

Maybe nothing.?. Maybe a lot?.. It depends..I'll explain. Vanax has gone through an evolution and we are currently using the 3rd version. Using the description "Vanax" (as I and many others often do) lacks specificity. The three versions of Vanax are Vanax 35, Vanax 75 and the new Vanax Super Clean. At different points in time people have referred to all 3 as "Vanax" so reading about it can become confusing. As of now Uddeholm is considering the current version (Vanax Super Clean) to be the final version and they too refer to it in casual conversation as just Vanax. So, when you see someone write "Vanax SC" they are specifying that they are talking about the current and most advanced version. Vanax SC (Super Clean) is a much improved product over the previous 2 versions and it is the version that we've been so impressed with.

Best regards,
Chad
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#152

Post by Deadboxhero »

Vanax SC is superior to Vanax 35. More alloy, more strength, more wear resistance.

No one is going to miss Vanax 35.

However, I'm bummed out that the Vanax 75 was discontinued. It was like a Nitrogen S90V. Uddlehom decided to discontinue both those steel in favor of the more balanced Vanax SC.

I'd like to see less balanced more extreme nitrogen steels more available like Vancron 40 and Vanax 75.

Anyone asking will be very happy with Vanax SC. So I wouldn't worry about it.
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#153

Post by Xplorer »

Thank you for the kind words Shawn. :) I'm really glad to see that little Vanax SC razor :p survived :cool: .
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:59 pm
....Also as a maker I know it's more important for the user to USE the knife. We hate when people don't use them, we put a lot of work in them to be used. We like to see scratches to some degree :D
Very true. They may be pretty tools but a ton of thought, time and money goes into making them high performance tools. Tools are made to be used. :)
Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:59 pm
....Which brings me to some abusive testing. Its important to see what the limits are.

I use brass .... I do this by using deep sticking and twisting cuts that a knife is NOT designed to handle to see how it fails.

This Vanax SC Custom has extreme geometry...thinner then anything you can buy off the shelf ...

There is nothing for Vanax SC to hide behind it only has it's chemistry and heat treatment to rely on.

Image
:eek: :eek: That stick and twist motion is brutal! That knife was waaaaaaaayy too thin for that! You're a mad man! :eek: :eek:

Deadboxhero wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:59 pm
Vanax SC is the most chip proof stainless I've ever used with this much alloy.

...Vanax SC is pure balance...

... I think the majority folks will enjoy these attributes with day to day use.
I'm very happy to see the results. I've done enough testing to have satisfied myself that this steel is the ONE steel I'm going to continue to use for most of my knife designs. I've done some extreme abuse testing to find the breaking point and establish minimum thickness requirements for the spine and the tip, edge shoulder, etc.. I've done the "stick and twist" test using ironwood. But, this test you did was more extreme than what I've done. Your testing is showing that with Vanax SC a knife user is not as likely to suffer catastrophic damage from a big mistake, and the user will be able to just sharpen out the minor damage on their own with basic sharpening equipment.

Nice work bro!

Chad

P.S. .. For everyone else reading... :) ... a couple things.. I gave that knife to Shawn because I knew he'd test it thoroughly and I also knew that he had the ability to repair it himself if he really screwed it up. Shawn is a knife maker and edge guru and he tests the limits if edges on all sorts of the most exotic steels on a daily basis.
Also, I'm a little uncomfortable about seeing pictures of that knife at all because it is not a finished design. It is a custom prototype Vanax SC neck knife (prototype #10 in fact) that was built for the purpose of answering some specific design questions. It was the last prototype prior to the final design which is why it is not only Vanax but it has a CF handle. The actual design that evolved from this (called the Tolokot) does not look like this knife and Shawn will be receiving his official Tolokot very soon. The 2.5" blade Tolokot and the 3" fixed EDC design I just recently completed are designs I hope to present to Sal for Spyderco's consideration and so I probably won't post pics of those until after I speak with Sal.

Chad
Last edited by Xplorer on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:25 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#154

Post by sal »

Hi Chad,

Contact Peter Jhones at Spyderco R&D (peterj@spydercocom).

sal
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#155

Post by Xplorer »

Hi Sal,

Thank you for the quick response. I hope you're having an enjoyable Christmas Eve. I'll be emailing Peter just after the holidays.

I hope you, Gail and your entire family have much joy and happiness through the holidays!

Best regards,
Chad
Last edited by Xplorer on Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#156

Post by sal »

Thanx Chad,

The same to you and everyone here.

sal
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#157

Post by Surfingringo »

Great news. I got to have lots of discussions with Chad last year when he was making my prototypes. I’ve spent hours discussing design process with him and I’ve watched some of these knives evolve. His craftsmanship and work are beautiful but most impressive is how much thought he puts into his designs. Every aspect and every nuance has a purpose and the designs have been refined over and over until they are distilled down to their essential form. I’d love to see these models available in a production knife!
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#158

Post by Xplorer »

Wow. Thanks Lance! You're too kind. I learn a lot nearly every time I talk with you. I appreciate all the good advise and feedback you've given me. I look forward to our next conversations.

Merry Christmas!

CK
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#159

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Xplorer wrote:
Tue Dec 25, 2018 7:58 am
Wow. Thanks Lance! You're too kind. I learn a lot nearly every time I talk with you. I appreciate all the good advise and feedback you've given me. I look forward to our next conversations.

Merry Christmas!

CK
And I look forward to getting one of those EDC fixed blades to try out. I’m still very interested to see what you do with the sheath. Next time you finish one just send me a message and name a price. :spyder:
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Re: Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

#160

Post by Bloke »

Here’s some pics Shawn, this is an antler from a Fallow Deer I shot about five years ago.

Image

I haven’t touched the blade since whittling Eucalyptus but if Eucalyptus is hard and dense, this antler makes it feel like matchstick Poplar.

Image

The wind blew my chips away but that little bit of whittling was actually fairly hard work.

Image

It’s interesting that the edge is still stubbornly holding on and even though I made a point of push and slice cutting using the entire length of the blade as best I could, we’re still rough slicing newsprint and scrape shaving fairly well with no obvious signs of edge damage.

Image
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